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Bookswithtea
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I've read lots of threads on the merits of the idea of courtship, as well as the downsides. I've also read Arms of Love and the sequel, Surrender. Here's what I am wondering...Do you know any family who doesn't live in a Duggar-like community that has made this work? Do you think it *can* work, and if so, is it the rare exception or do you think its entirely doable?
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Barbara C.
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Well, the Duggars don't technically live in a like-minded community. Their oldest met his wife at a homeschooling conference in Texas. They live in Arkansas; she lived in Florida.
I think the key is that they really went out to find like-minded people...to build a like-minded community.
I haven't read the books that you've read, but I would like to think that the courtship model could work although maybe not as perfectly for some as for others. I think a lot of it depends on the young person's relationship to the parents as much as finding other like-minded people.
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folklaur
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okay, i have not read the books you mention. and before i go any further - are you sure you want *my* opinion? 
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SharonO
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I've also read Arms of Love and the sequel, Surrender. |
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I don't have any answers either, but the author of these books Carmen Marcoux is scheduled to appear on EWTN's "Life on the Rock" this Thursday evening. The topic is teen fiction and courtship.
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Mackfam
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cactus mouse wrote:
| okay, i have not read the books you mention. and before i go any further - are you sure you want *my* opinion? |
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Laura,
As long as you express your opinion charitably I think all viewpoints are welcome here.
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Erin
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The Catholic courtship model is very different to the Protestant model. Perhaps someone can help with with links to articles?? I remember some great links on the old CCM yahoo group that helped me sort it out in my head.
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Erin
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stefoodie
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I've also read Arms of Love and the sequel, Surrender. Here's what I am wondering...Do you know any family who doesn't live in a Duggar-like community that has made this work? Do you think it *can* work, and if so, is it the rare exception or do you think its entirely doable? |
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Hi Books! This is a topic that's near and dear to my heart right now, esp. since I have an 18-yo and  I still remember very clearly being an 18-yo myself.
I have short answers right now and will try to come back later.
I've read Arms of Love -- while I thought it was a good book, I think it tried to do too much by trying to cover everything... and at the same time, it still wasn't enough. It's a great intro to the whole concept of chaste courtship, however. But courtship is such a HUGE topic in itself that I'm glad you brought this here to discuss. (I have drafts upon drafts and pages upon pages of notes on this topic!)
First though, I dont' know what a "Duggar-like community" is. So I'll assume you mean a very traditional, close-knit, Christian community where families know each other??? Am I close?
If that's what you mean, then yes, I think it's doable even in a community where this is not the case. But I think a lot of it is still dependent on parent-child relationships and family-family relationships within the community.
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guitarnan
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We are encouraging our 17-y-o son to differentiate among friendships, casual dating relationships and true courtship. Since we have many overseas friends, we are also talking honestly with him about what marriage to someone from another country involves (trips home every year, for starters).
We don't live in a close-knit anything (except immediate family). People come and go around here. There are many core families in our parish whose parents and grandparents helped found the parish - but also many families who stay only as long as their military orders or government contracts keep them here.
I still believe that courtship is possible, if it comes from a faith-filled heart. One key, I think, is total honesty - a necessity in a marriage, of course - how wonderful it would be if young dating couples could honestly say, "I believe in chaste courtship, and this is a step along that path," and have those words accepted in love and charity by the other person. (Wouldn't it be a load off one's mind, too, not to wonder if the other person had other ideas? Whew!)
For sure, there are young (and not young) people who would walk away from a pronouncement like that, never to be seen again. But - this was true when my mom was a teen - she's told me some of her dating stories. Some things don't change. Much better to know before marriage whether or not you were dealing with someone who was interested in a real, committed relationship.
My son is pretty shy and reserved, so he's just venturing out into the world of talking with young ladies. We're encouraging him to consider forming friendships first, without expectation of a lifelong commitment at this young age.
I look forward to reading about the experiences of other families. I hope that some day my son will meet a young lady from a family like yours!
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stefoodie
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Back for a bit. I think that given the way society is these days, that it could be seen as rare, but all it takes are people who have made the commitment to this kind of mindset and lifestyle. I like to think that the majority of Catholic and Christian homeschoolers would prefer this type of relationship-building -- so in that sense there's a whole bunch of us who want this for our kids!
(There's actually a group on Yahoo called Catholic Moms Matchmaking or something like that -- you might want to join if that appeals to you.)
We are in a local group right now made up of Catholic families -- the thinking is that -- while we are not necessarily into "matchmaking" per se, we are providing the youth with opportunities to get to know each other within family-and-friends settings... if it leads to courtship and eventual relationships, good! If not, at the very least we're helping them build life-long relationships with people who will continue to support them in their faith journey.
It's still not perfect though (but then again, what is?). Because the kids are mostly private/public schooled, it's still difficult to find parents/kids who are as close to our thinking as homeschooling parents/kids tend to be. We are very thankful, though, that these are faithful Catholic families who are TRYING their best to live out their beliefs.
Nancy is absolutely right about the honesty part. While our teen has a right to privacy and we respect that right, we also demand a certain level of honesty from her about her friendships. We have talked about how to go about this courtship thing in abstract as well as practical terms, so our dd knows our expectations. We plan to let any guy who shows up at our front door or calls know what our expectations are of him as well. And we're not the type of people to mince words. When it comes to these things we believe straightforwardness and frankness are the best ways to go. Once you set boundaries I think it's easier for the kids. Some of the specific rules we have here:
1. All invitation for dates have to be screened by Dad and Mom. We get final say whether she's going or not. We will teach our boys to also approach the parents of any girls they want to court this way.
2. Group dates are allowed, preferably with at least one adult present. If no adults are present we would prefer that there be no "pairing off", e.g., we've only allowed our daughter to go out with a group where there were boyfriend-girlfriend pairings ONCE, and we don't plan to do it often.
3. If a boy wants to get to know her one-on-one, it has to be done in our home, with our family present. They can sit on the couch in the family room and talk, he may/will be invited to join us for meals/family events as fits our schedule, etc., but "time alone" will be severely limited, at least until she turns a certain age (still being discussed between dh and me). She can date, but chaperoned by our oldest son (or in one past instance with a trusted young adult), and they have to be visible to the chaperone at all times.
4. No phone calls after 9, and no staying past midnight on the phone. We allow her to break this rule occasionally, provided we know who the person is she is talking to/where they are in the world (time differences, etc.).
5. This is technology related but a rule we have here at home is that we have access to all our kids' passwords and can check anytime we want. And we do exercise this right every now and then. Since our eldest is 18 we've relaxed on this a bit and given her more of her privacy -- the level of which is determined by how trustworthy she is. Any infraction incurs the penalty that she will be more watched and monitored, and possibly her privileges reduced, e.g., no going out even as a group. So far we've had to track back only once.
I realize now after typing all that that an explanation is probably in order of how we define courtship and dating around here -- not the American definition, or at least not how my local American friends have defined the terms for me. It'll have to wait 'til tomorrow as I'm beat.
hth,
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Bookswithtea
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Wow, this is helpful to hear all sorts of opinions (and yes, of course I'd like to hear what you have to say, Laura!  )
Erin, I don't think I've heard before that the Catholic courtship model is much different than the protestant one. Someone please explain to me?
By a Duggar-like community, I meant that they have really only allowed their children to form friendships within families, and those families share their own values. The likelihood of their children being interested in someone with a very different worldview seems far fetched, to me. They home church, so they don't even have a diverse parish-type community in their family's life. I'm not knocking the Duggar's, btw. I find their family to be truly lovely and really enjoyed their book. I just used them as an example because its somewhat well known.
Stef, I really appreciate hearing your family's ways.
Here's the root of my question. Several situations have come to my attention in the last few months that haven't gone well at all, and the more I listen, the more I hear of other homeschooled young adults making choices that don't seem to be the best.  I am wondering if there is anything we can do as parents to help them navigate this and not end up in unhappy marriages.
How would you handle these types of situations?
A friend of mine has a child, now graduated, who met a another through their parish. They both are committed Catholics, but the family does not share my friend's values and the other child was raised very differently. Let's just say its been a strain on their entire family  , and my friend is not only scared for her child's future, but also for the extended family relationships in the future, should they decide to marry.
I know of another situation where a homeschooled child met another at a parish event. This person is going through RCIA, but is also a child with no Christian background of any sort, comes from a dysfunctional family, and the mother thinks homeschoolers are "psycho".
And I know of a third situation where a homeschooled child met and married someone from their parish. Again, both love the Lord and are committed Catholics, but because one of them doesn't come from a similar background, its put incredible strain on the entire extended family relationships. The one from a more mainstream background doesn't even make a point of coming to say hello to the in laws (my friends) after Mass.
In all three of these situations, the homeschooled families had rules in place, proceeded with much prayer, and really wanted to do the right thing, being open to the Lord's leading. But the rules didn't really help since their children chose to have relationships with people who do not share their values, even when the other's family are authentically Catholic.
How do you proceed if your child is interested in someone whose family doesn't share your values even remotely? What do you do if you reach out to meet the parents and they have no interest in even meeting you? What do you do when you can't talk openly with the mother of the other person and try to find rules in common?
I am beginning to understand the father's take in My Big Fat Greek Wedding much better now ("I don't know, I don't know, I don't know!" ) that I have a teen and am not too far away from having to deal with all of this.
I'm not sure that courtship is the answer, but it occurs to me that families who try to move toward courtship models are trying to avoid situations just like these ones. I keep thinking about the abysmal statistics that the majority of people are unhappily married. I don't want that for my children. I'm not sure its up to me, at least once they are adults. But isn't there something we can do to help guide them???
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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MaryM
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| Erin, I don't think I've heard before that the Catholic courtship model is much different than the protestant one. Someone please explain to me? |
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Michaela found those old CCM links and posted them in another courtship/dating thread a couple years ago.
This is the courting/dating thread Ruth started a few years ago - lots of great posts there:
What is dating?
Here's the article Erin referenced:
A Catholic critique of a current notion of courtship
That old thread has lots of links on dating/courtship that Anne posted as well. Janet always has lots of insightful information to share on courtship model. Hopefully she will join in this conversation, but if anyone interested, search the archives, keyword "courtship" posted by "ALmom".
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Barbara C.
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It sounds that a lot of the problems that your friends are having are not with the young adults but with their families.
It seems that as long as you have rules for your family it really doesn't matter what the other families rules are. If the other family would allow your son to be alone in a girl in her room, then your son should be old enough to know that it is still against your rules and excuse himself from the situation.
In the situation where the kid's mother is rude and disrespectful, it is tougher. You'd really have to talk with the daughter about how much disrespect she is willing to take, how much disrespect of her family she is willing to allow from the woman, and how much the boy is willing to allow his mom to treat her disrespectfully. And is she willing to live with this for the rest of her life? How would they handle things if the mother disrespected their parenting choices?
And it seems like a happy marriage is more dependent on the couple having the same values rather than their families (and realize that some of our children may have different values than us as well). As long as they are all committed Catholics, it seems like you could agree to disagree on certain things.
As for the daughter-in-law that won't say hello after Mass, could it possibly be because the in-laws have tried to impose their values on her or interfere in her marriage? There may be more to the story than what you are hearing.
I really like some of your rules Stefoodie. I may just have to copy those to keep as a reference down the road.
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Barbara
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Bookswithtea
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THese are great links, Mary. Thank you for sharing. A lot of food for thought here.
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Blessings,
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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Barbara C. wrote:
It sounds that a lot of the problems that your friends are having are not with the young adults but with their families.
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I may have made it sound that way, but in practice, it was both. Children tend to have the same presuppositions they grew up with. So these children had expectations for "alone dating" that became a constant source of frustration. The level of supervision at the other family's house was completely inappropriate (and how do you tell someone, "You are completely welcome in our home but my ds or dd is not allowed to come over to yours"). The other parents don't care to even meet the family or even concern themselves with whose home their child is at. The family without the likeminded values affects the child without the likeminded values, even when they are Catholic and love God dearly. It creates friction between the couple and then between the child and his or her boy/girlfriend's family. Then the poor child becomes the monkey in the middle, divided between his/her parents and his/her significant other. In one situation, the couple was fairly young and the monkey in the middle syndrome created a tremendous amount of dissonance between the child and one of his/her own parents. Another issue that came up in these scenarios was lack of understanding how large families operate (as in the regular complaint, "We don't ever get to be alone together when we are at your house because all your siblings are constantly around").
I don't think that its as simple as the couple being ok. A person marries into a family, even though they leave and cleave. That person's parents become influential people in the lives of their children, for better or for worse. Being raised differently will come up regularly in every major decision that couple makes as they go through life...children's schooling, discipline, mass and ccd attendance, how much time the family spends together doing family things, money priorities, what activities are appropriate for children, etc...
The potential for discord is enormous. I confess, I am sympathetic to the idea that compatibility is more important than a spark of mysterious love (referring to the Catholic Critique article), given the situations I've seen lately.
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Blessings,
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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stefoodie
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I have the same worries, Books, really, I do. 
Our children know our expectations early on  . What we hope is that before they start making decisions with zero input from us, 1) they have had at least a few years practicing the virtues we've tried to inculcate in them: obedience, chastity, humility, etc. and 2) they've seen the positive outcome from those attitudes/behaviors (or the negative outcomes from disobedience, etc.).
When they start on the courtship/dating path, they can still get guidance when they need it, but because we've done our best, hopefully they've actually internalized our values and perhaps incorporated them into their own set of principles... every adult needs his/her own set after all.
Because they've internalized those values, they can then make up their own rules as to what works for them or not.
At this point I have really started to let go of my 18-yo. For instance, I've already taught her about modest dressing, etc. . Unless she wears something indecent that we have to put our foot down and say "You're not leaving the house in that" -- she gets to pick her own clothes. Often she'll ask me, "Mom, is this okay?" My response: "Do what feels right. You know I'll say something if I don't approve." I often remind her, you're 18. You need to decide this for yourself.
The same applies to relationships. It's trickier, of course, than picking a blouse (or not) because of its neckline, but the principles still apply.
She knows our values. She's heard many many lectures from us as to how a relationship/marriage should and should not be. She's seen our example. She's also seen bad examples around her, sometimes as close as family members. She has a good idea of the kind of person she wants for a life partner: e.g., someone who's pro-life, someone she can respect and submit to, etc.
From there, we leave it to God. We pray to Him and Mama Mary daily about our children's vocations. We include these in our intentions before we say our Rosaries. Our children hear us vocalize this and they know their vocations are very important to us.
I always tell God and Mama Mary, *this* is what I would like for my child. *But*, if it's not Your will, then remove this desire from my heart, and teach me to bend my will to Yours. He's the one who sees the big picture. He's the one who sees what kind of person/marriage my child needs to grow in holiness and sanctity after she leaves the nest.
Her ultimate choice might not be our choice, though my prayers often include a petition that her future life partner is someone *we* can also respect and love, and that she's treated "right", even loved, as we have loved her, not only by the spouse but her future in-laws as well. But I trust that God will provide.
How many of us live in marriages where we're absolutely loved and respected and treated right by our spouses, but perhaps not by our in-laws? What have we done then? Yes, there may be many instances of unhappiness, frustration, tears, etc. but that doesn't change the fact that we still grow in our marriages. We're still showered with countless blessings. There are so many graces built into the Sacrament of Matrimony, that even if on the surface it looks like a bad or unhappy marriage, we don't KNOW what it will look like years from now. God always pulls good stuff out of everything -- even bad marriages. I've seen it firsthand. It may not look ideal, it may even look painful... but I have to trust that it's for the good of the people involved and that everything ultimately works for their salvation.
No more time, I hope that helps.
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Bookswithtea
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Actually, it does help. I am committing myself anew to praying for my children's spouses and their future vocations in marriage, if they are so called. I think bathing the entire thing is prayer is really the best hope.
I am also thinking that in the last two years before they turn 18, maybe there is some room for *practicing* how a healthy relationship develops???
Maybe something like calling the other person's family and inviting them over *first*, rather than after the two view themselves as a couple, allowing the two to get to know each other within their family, as friends first.
I still think we marry into a family, not just a person. And if we don't know or understand how that person is with their family, then we don't entirely know that person.
The awesomeness of the responsibilities of parenting is hitting me all over again. Raising teens is serious business...
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stefoodie
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I am also thinking that in the last two years before they turn 18, maybe there is some room for *practicing* how a healthy relationship develops??? |
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That's certainly a possibility. Another thing I think that helps is a thorough grounding in Church teaching, particularly in the areas of marriage, submission, apologetics, etc. I can't predict who my children will marry but I think they'll be pickier than most folks today. Or at least they'll have certain non-negotiables.
Quote:
| Maybe something like calling the other person's family and inviting them over *first*, rather than after the two view themselves as a couple, allowing the two to get to know each other within their family, as friends first. |
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| I still think we marry into a family, not just a person. And if we don't know or understand how that person is with their family, then we don't entirely know that person. |
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Oh, you've got my complete agreement on this one. We tell our 18-yo this all the time. When dh courted me, he basically courted the family, not just me. I have joked a few times that my family fell in love with him first before I did.
I think it's easier for our girls to demand from a potential suitor how she wants to be courted. It's been my observation that even people who are not used to that kind of tradition will acquiesce if they want to get to know the girl badly enough. I have several Filipina friends who are married to Americans/other nationalities and when they set the tone of how they want to be courted, the guys were happy to comply with their families' rules.
It's going to be trickier with boys. My fear here is that my boys will be wanting to court girls whose parents are more permissive than we are. Praying a lot about this one.
I forgot to detail how Filipino courtship works, just in case it helps some of you. I'm short on time so it will have to in list form:
stages of courtship in Philippine culture:
1. friendship -- group dates, family outings, can include phone calls and visits at home but no one-on-one interaction
2. boy decides he would like to get to know girl better, they move into courtship stage. Now our courtship stage is different in that
a) a girl may be courted by several boys all at once
b) a boy may decide to stop courting at any time, there's "no obligation"
- age of girl usually determined by parents, i.e., their willingness to start allowing her to entertain suitors at their home
courtship usually = phone calls, visits at home (set appointments, cannot just show up), group dates... any and all of which a girl can choose to reject if she's not interested in a boy, i.e., there is no obligation on her part to encourage/entertain suitors
in other words, both are "just looking" and not thinking of buying yet :)
3. after certain period of time (really varies depending on the people -- some courtships last years, others take but a few weeks), girl chooses to say "yes" to Proposal #1 from the boy of her choice, which is "will you be my girlfriend" Usually this includes a profession of love from the boy to which the girl must respond. Once a girl is "taken" she cannot entertain other suitors.
4. boyfriend-girlfriend stage -- they can date, with or without chaperone depending on parents' comfort level or traditions. this is also
5. after a certain period of time (great variation here, I've met people who dated for YEARS before moving on to the next step, others move pretty quickly) when they've both ascertained that they're ready for marriage then Proposal #2 comes -- "will you marry me?" and that's where the ring comes in. An associated ritual to this stage is the "pamamanhikan" where the parents of the boy go to see the parents of the girl, both sets of parents coming together to give their children their blessing.
6. again, engagement time varies. some people get married right away, others wait another year.
My personal observation is that because of the tremendous "work" the boy has to go through to earn the girl's heart, it conditions them to both think long-term. No recreational dating here.
Not saying this is how it is in all Filipino families, esp. in this day and age. A lot of people I know now follow the Western model of dating. But in those families that are determined to keep the old traditions, this is how they do things.
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Bookswithtea
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Stef, do the filipinos have a tradition of happier marriages because of this practice (which looks quite wonderful to me!)?
In the situations I've seen that have been difficult, most of them have the boys from the more countercultural families. I think boys at this age think they are invincible (and probably rightly) are more focused on cutting those apron strings than girls are. I think boys not being as discerning about the girl's families is a big concern.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Matilda
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| Posted: July 17 2009 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
A friend of mine has a child, now graduated, who met a another through their parish. They both are committed Catholics, but the family does not share my friend's values and the other child was raised very differently. Let's just say its been a strain on their entire family , and my friend is not only scared for her child's future, but also for the extended family relationships in the future, should they decide to marry. |
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I am trying very hard not to take any part of this discussion personally and I think Jennifer's call to charitably express our opinions is a good reminder for everyone. This example is exactly the way my marriage started off. We met at a Catholic college, not a parish. I was from a typical American-Catholic-divorced-twice home. While my family wouldn't have won any awards for being the most dysfunctional, "Honorable Mention" wouldn't be a stretch.
I don't have to imagine the horror with which my future in-laws met the prospect of their son marrying me because they made it very plain and were incredibly vocal in expressing their displeasure. They wrongfully assumed that I was going to keep living the life my parents had saddled me with. They weren't even open to the possibility that what attracted me to their son was the values and faith they had helped instill in him. They didn't even consider for a moment that I wanted something better than what my parent's experienced.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I know of another situation where a homeschooled child met another at a parish event. This person is going through RCIA, but is also a child with no Christian background of any sort, comes from a dysfunctional family, and the mother thinks homeschoolers are "psycho". |
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Isn't this kind of like saying, "We don't want to associate with the sinners over there?" What an opportunity to evangelize and be an example to these people and a huge support system for that young couple who are trying to carve out a better life for themselves in the one true faith? Don't sell our faith so short.
And maybe it is a blessing to the young couple that their faith and values will keep the dysfunctional family at a distance.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| And I know of a third situation where a homeschooled child met and married someone from their parish. Again, both love the Lord and are committed Catholics, but because one of them doesn't come from a similar background, its put incredible strain on the entire extended family relationships. The one from a more mainstream background doesn't even make a point of coming to say hello to the in laws (my friends) after Mass. |
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Well, depending on how determined they are to make that strain palpable and how vocal they have been in expressing their concerns, I can sympathize with a young DIL who is afraid to try to be sociable even in a pleasant situation like after Mass.
Now, I am happy to say that time has a way of healing all wounds and that there is hope that those young couples will grow in Christ and the parents will find it in their hearts to let go of past grievances. It is possible to forgive and start working on wonderfully, friendly relationships if both parties allow it. God has a plan for our lives and nobody's plan is the same.
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Charlotte (Matilda)
Mom to four (11 , 10, 9 & 5 ) an even split for now
with bookend boys and a double girl sandwich
Waltzing Matilda
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: July 17 2009 at 12:51pm | IP Logged
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I think this is the link MaryM referenced earlier: Explaining Courting to the Kids
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Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: courtship revisited
