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amyable
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Do your children hit each other often (in anger, I mean, not "fun wrestling")? What do you do about it?
I have a particular child (wishing I didn't have to give all the details for charity's sake, but I think it makes a difference) - she is 9yo and second born. She has always had more difficulty than the others expressing herself, but lately the hitting, pinching, shoving seem over the top. We talk to her, we've punished (from a quick time out to a "your day is over, go lie in bed," to doing chores for the hurt child, etc) and it has never made a dent in the behavior. We give positive attention as much as we can. It is mostly at her 11 year old sister (who often deserves it!   ) but she will push or kick at her 5yo sister as well when aggrivated.
I just feel like this is "not OK" and I'd really like it to stop. Wondering what you've done in your homes. I told my 11yo that I'd ask my wise Mommy Friends because she came to me yet again wondering what she should do about her sister.
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Amy
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folklaur
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| Posted: Jan 28 2009 at 8:43pm | IP Logged
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No good advice, but  and prayers for you! I agree with you, it would not be okay with me either. I just got lucky with age ranges and temperments, so I have never had a hitter in the bunch. (oh, but do I have a whiner...!)
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 28 2009 at 9:09pm | IP Logged
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we had a pincher.. part was addressing that we are each in control of ourselves and no one else "makes us" do things like that. Expressing confidence that the child will be able to gain self control as well as demanding that they do so. said child also liked longer nails so cutting nails to the quick not only was a consequence, but it reduced damage as well.
another is that if you can't show self control then you need to have "mom control" which means you must be with mom (same room etc) at all times.
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Angi
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| Posted: Jan 28 2009 at 10:08pm | IP Logged
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Maybe it is a 4 girls in the house problem.
My oldest is the meanie here. She does not hurt anyone (anymore), but she does hit/kick/push them. Usually just enough to annoy them.
She gets sent to her room. I noticed that it is worse if she has not had any alone time that day.
So, no advice, just letting you know you are not alone.
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dawn2006
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I do lots of scripting with my kids about what to do when they get angry. You know, "use your words" type of thing. If that doesn't work they're supposed to come get a parent. At least, these are the expectations. When hitting does happen we go through the litany of "what were you supposed to do?" etc.
I try to impress on everyone that both sides have a job to do in a conflict. Both people need to try to see the other person's POV. But that's an after-the-fact conversation.
To preempt things a bit I try to always come to the room when I hear things escalating. Then I can say "Sounds like things are getting out of hand." and I start throwing scripts around that cover different ways of handling and verbalizing the situation.
Hope all that makes sense. I think when trying to break a habit it's important to spend a week or two with the mental attitude that you're gonna nip it early and often. Good luck!
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Dawn Farias | wife to Ariel | mom to Gabriel 9, Daniel 7, Elizabeth 5, and Michael 3 | blogger at Be Absorbed | native Texan but currently living near Seattle
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Sarah
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| Posted: Jan 28 2009 at 10:48pm | IP Logged
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Its not just girls. We might have something similar at times. Boys can get even more violent. Older brothers often don't let it slide. Don't ask me how I know. The second child often feels their only defense is extreme measures. And I believe they are hurting inside. They are wanting someone to feel as small and bad as they do. Its not right, but it is a reality.
I believe that you just have to keep plugging away at those same punishments you listed. Remind her when she is not angry and when she is alone with you and doesn't have her older sister listening that her behavior is breaking the Thou Shalt not Kill commandment. Also, older sis might need a firm lesson in bullying and how you can quietly control someone. We've really looked at bullying here. There are websites and such.
The violence becomes a habitual way to deal with conflict resolution. Imagine if you had the presence all day long of someone who was older by just enough to be better at things than you are. The older one knows just how to twist the knife slowly and silently to cause that younger one to feel helpless. The looks, the smiles, the sneers, etc. Its bullying on the part of the older one and the anger comes out onto the younger ones.
Pray. St John Bosco, pray for us. Start perpetual novena to him for this intention and ask him to guide you on what he would have done with similar children in his day.
Hang in there.
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Sarah
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Also, I didn't mean to sound like its all the older ones fault.
I've told my kids that we are responsible for our own behavior. As someone listed above, no one can make you do something. You must learn to deal with annoying people. Daddy can't go up and punch Mr smith in the mouth because he made fun of his car. Mother cannot slap Mrs Johnson on the cheek because she made a rude comment. God's laws and our country's laws forbid hurting others.
Sorry long winded tonight!
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: Jan 28 2009 at 10:58pm | IP Logged
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JodieLyn wrote:
another is that if you can't show self control then you need to have "mom control" which means you must be with mom (same room etc) at all times. |
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This is what we do. And, I do mean ALL TIMES.  Doing what I'm doing....which usually means some sort of chore, etc.....or just sitting there doing something quietly while everyone else is playing. 
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amyable
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SuzanneG wrote:
JodieLyn wrote:
another is that if you can't show self control then you need to have "mom control" which means you must be with mom (same room etc) at all times. |
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This is what we do. And, I do mean ALL TIMES. Doing what I'm doing....which usually means some sort of chore, etc.....or just sitting there doing something quietly while everyone else is playing. |
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How long do you do this for before you "let them free"?
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CrunchyMom
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Sarah wrote:
The second child often feels their only defense is extreme measures. And I believe they are hurting inside. They are wanting someone to feel as small and bad as they do. Its not right, but it is a reality.
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Thank you for this insight. My second is only 2 1/2, but I have noticed his "acting out" isn't only just because of his age. He was always a bit more "needy" than my oldest (cried if I held someone else's baby until close to two!), and he always wants to do what his big brother does.
Good food for thought--I need to develop better habits for filling his cup before things get out of hand instead of his needing to misbehave to get attention.
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Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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mary
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| Posted: Jan 29 2009 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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Sarah wrote:
Its not just girls. We might have something similar at times. Boys can get even more violent. Older brothers often don't let it slide. Don't ask me how I know. The second child often feels their only defense is extreme measures. And I believe they are hurting inside. They are wanting someone to feel as small and bad as they do. Its not right, but it is a reality.
I believe that you just have to keep plugging away at those same punishments you listed. Remind her when she is not angry and when she is alone with you and doesn't have her older sister listening that her behavior is breaking the Thou Shalt not Kill commandment. Also, older sis might need a firm lesson in bullying and how you can quietly control someone. We've really looked at bullying here. There are websites and such.
The violence becomes a habitual way to deal with conflict resolution. Imagine if you had the presence all day long of someone who was older by just enough to be better at things than you are. The older one knows just how to twist the knife slowly and silently to cause that younger one to feel helpless. The looks, the smiles, the sneers, etc. Its bullying on the part of the older one and the anger comes out onto the younger ones.
Pray. St John Bosco, pray for us. Start perpetual novena to him for this intention and ask him to guide you on what he would have done with similar children in his day.
Hang in there. |
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i think this is spot on. i have a hitter and she just needs more mommy time. i began taking the kids out without their siblings and it really helped her the most. i try to remember - the kid who needs the most love deserves it the least.
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Willa
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amyable wrote:
| It is mostly at her 11 year old sister (who often deserves it! |
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Since you mentioned it, I just wanted to bring out this part of it since I've seen the dynamic in my own home. (ETA Sarah mentioned it too, I see) A verbally advanced child who provokes the less verbally mature child to violence, and the violent child can't fight back verbally so he (in my home) strikes out physically because it seems like the only effective way to fight against the verbal hurt.
For that reason I often impose consequences on both the "players", not just the physically acting-out child. And they aren't really "consequences" because then there are arguments from the verbally advanced one "I didn't do anything, I was just...!" It's more like, "Since you two aren't being good for each other -- Child A, you go and work on your (whatever) now (there's usually something they have to do eventually, so it might as well be right then), and Child B, you come with me and help me with (whatever)"
That's just an example, but the basic goal -- get them apart from each other and give the verbally advanced one some motivation to act civilized in future, TOO -- otherwise it's just open season for the provoker to push and push, testing the violent one beyond capacity for control.
Your 11 year old sounds distressed about what's going on so perhaps she can help with the internal motivation! Maybe she's a bit frightened by the violence but can't resist provoking it... .I don't know, just guessing.
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Willa
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Willa
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amyable wrote:
| How long do you do this for before you "let them free"? |
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Not trying to speak for Jodie but for me it's until the feeling changes... until the players seem back to normal, no tension in the atmosphere. Sometimes I ask them if they think they're ready to go back out again.
And it can sometimes help to transition to some activity where you're all together and you can still keep an eye on their interaction. Just in case there is some lingering anger.
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Willa
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JodieLyn
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Yes, pretty much what Willa said.. generally we focus on the attitude.. what I want to see is none of the attitude of expressions and body language that is basically saying "I'm the victim, and it's NOT MY FAULT". Once things are on an even keel again then it's time to try again. If it's been a hard day overall, sometimes I also transition them to something they can do alone (permission to go and read somewhere maybe).
And yes I also watch for the sneaky child.. who can pester until someone else strikes out. I've got one of those too.. and often just letting them know that they're not "pulling a fast one" is enough to straighten things out a while.
They always have permission to come get me for help if they can't handle a situation.. in other words.. come get mom before you hurt someone.. so even if the other is pestering.. and will get in trouble for it.. the one who refused to get help or maintain control and physically lashes out still needs some "mom control".
That time isn't really punitive unless their attitude still has the better of them. But we can talk and I can point out other ways to deal with it (including come get help)..
If there's still a lot of fussing going on I may use it more like a heavily monitored time out.. no self talking yourself into being the victim.. no justifying the attitude.. and then ease up as they conquer the attitude.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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