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doris
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I don't know where to start!
We've recently met a local family who are home educating their large family. They are also Christians (specifically Baptists) and have extremely strict ideas on child-rearing.
Their children are delightful, friendly, helpful and confident. But the parents' ideas on discipline make me very uncomfortable. The mother was explaining to me today that they follow the Biblical verse, 'He who does not work shall not eat,' so that if one of their children
does not, for example, tidy up when asked, he or she misses the next meal. They also insist on first time obedience'. They do smack if there is non-compliance.
She mentioned that they had followed a course called 'Raising Kids God's Way' which, having googled, I see is by the Ezzos -- which having googled further, I find rather alarming. Indeed, I would regard taking away a child's meal as being rather cruel.
BUT on the other hand these really are lovely children! They don't seem to have been damaged by this treatment -- on the contrary, they seem genuinely happy, and genuinely kind and considerate.
My own approach to discipline is a lot more woolly -- I do expect my children to obey me, but I also think that questioning authority (in certain contexts) is a good thing, and I also don't want to raise children who are basically beaten into submission rather than genuinely taught to choose the right thing. I would rather use logical consequences, but there isn't an obvious consequence to 'Do what I say the first time.'
The bigger issue is that this lady thinks that she's got a direct mandate from God to parent in this way, based on certain Bible verses. Obviously I don't think it's as clearcut as all that.
So, my questions are (sorry for long waffly post, I'm a bit troubled by all this)
What is your approach to discipline?
Does anyone have any links to Church teaching on the subject? (I'm guessing that the Church in her wisdom has left it to our discretion -- am I right?)
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Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
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mary theresa
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Elizabeth! It is so coincidental, but I came here tonight to ask about discipline and to get thoughts about raising disciplined obedient, respectful children without using corporal punishment. My husband doesn't think it can be done! And just sincerely want to know if it can be. Many parents that we know and respect think using spankings is the ONLY way to raise obedient children.
But this describes my thoughts pretty well:
doris wrote:
I also don't want to raise children who are basically beaten into submission rather than genuinely taught to choose the right thing. I would rather use logical consequences, but there isn't an obvious consequence to 'Do what I say the first time.'
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I and all my siblings were spanked growing up so I feel that that can be my default mode of discipline, and I definitely have used it before -- i'm not very creative with a different consequence in the heat of the moment. But I would really like to avoid using corporal punishment at all in our family. . . (just a personal decision. I am NOT blaming anyone who does -- obviously its all left up to individual parents' discretion.  )
Sorry if I am hijacking or not understanding your question. we are in the process of figuring out how to discipline (my oldest is only 2.5) and so I am very curious and interested to hear what older, wiser mothers have to say about discipline.
Oh, and as for missing a meal-- We definitely had that consequence (I don't like the word "punishment" actually) growing up. I think it does seem to be the logical result of not helping with the dinner or not doing your chores or whatever. I think it probably would be too harsh for a younger child though. We were usually allowed a piece of toast later after the family meal so we wouldn't starve or anything.  To me, I think that sounds okay . . .
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lapazfarm
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I think we all know this topic has the potential to become heated. Just a reminder that if you feel the need to respond to this post, to please keep it courteous and respectful in tone and to pray, pray, pray before posting. I am sure we can all do that.
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Mackfam
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Elizabeth,
You are correct that Holy Mother Church leaves the particulars of raising and educating children to the parents. Of course, we have the 10 Commandments to guide us, and as well Our Lord specifically tells us not to provoke our children. It is clear from the Catechism that as parents we are to respect our children's dignity as images of God:
Catechism of the Catholic Church #2222 wrote:
| Parents must regard their children as children of God and respect them as human persons. Showing themselves obedient to the will of the Father in heaven, they educate their children to fulfill God's law. |
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Catechism of the Catholic Church #2216-2217 wrote:
Filial respect is shown by true docility and obedience. "My son, keep your father's commandment, and forsake not your mother's teaching...When you walk, they will lead you; when you lie down, they will watch over you; and when you awake, they will talk with you." "A wise son hears his father's instruction, but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke."
As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord."... |
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There are a couple of older threads with some discussion on discipline:
Cultivating Well Mannered Children
Discipline Questions - Younger children
And, I'd like to recommend a few good books both written by Catholic men/fathers addressing discipline from a Catholic perspective.
There's Good Discipline, Great Teens by Dr. Ray Guarendi.
And Discipline That Lasts a Lifetime also by Dr. Guarendi.
And also You're a Better Parent Than You Think - A Guide to Common Sense Parenting - Dr. Guarendi
His website is here.
Parenting With Grace: Catholic Parents Guide to Raising Almost Perfect Kids by Dr. Gregory Popcak is very good as well.
I enjoy reading from both of these Catholic dads as they write with humor and from the trenches as well as providing that Catholic perspective I think you are looking for and miss seeing in your friend's family.
And...just because I'm link happy  tonight - you might enjoy these articles by Steve Wood -
The Indispensable Role of Dad in Child Training and Discipline
and
Part 2 of the same article
***Just a word of warning here as a moderator***
The issue of spank or not to spank can be a decidedly heated one. There are arguments to be made on both sides of the issue. Please, when discussing this aspect of discipline, keep in mind that in the end that decision is left in the prudential hands of the individual parents to whom God has entrusted the children. While I think the topic can be discussed, I'm just asking that we speak gently and avoid making sweeping judgements...please.
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BrendaPeter
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Great recommendations Jennifer! Dr. Ray is so common-sensical and at the same time hilarious!
I have found the book "Hints on Child Training" to be helpful. One thing I learned from it is how not break my child's will. For example when my very strong-willed 4-year-old disobeys, I will say to her "Please do what I ask you to do or get a spanking. It's your choice." I spank very minimally - with a spatula once - but usually she chooses to obey. I find this idea of giving her a choice of good vs. bad very logical as our children will have to make this choice for the rest of their lives.
When people ask me how I discipline my children, believe it or not I refer them to the Treasure Box books. I particularly like books 9,10,11 & 12. Those issues have stories about a very good boy & girl & I often use their behavior as an example. I will often say "do you think Mary Ann would do that?" As I've gotten older, I find I'm much more inclined to inspire my children to behave (as much as within reason) vs. reprimanding them for their behavior. I suspose I'm just more tired  .
I have read the Ezzos & was a big fan for awhile. They helped me when my 1st strong-willed child came along & I didn't know what to do. But like so many things out there, you have to make it work for your family so you take a bit & throw out the rest.
Many children are quite delightful despite the methods of discipline their parents employ. The proof of the pudding comes in the adolescent years. It's a very humbling time to say the least  . That's the time where the road meets the rubber so to speak. Parents will have to really take the time out to think & pray about how they will successfully discipline their children through these turbulent years. Respect for our children (as the Catechism says) is essential. That doesn't mean giving away the store but it's a delicate balance which requires much grace. Do whatever you can to make time for prayer & draw on the sacraments. Daily Mass (which calls for alot of discipline!) makes a big difference if it can be managed.
One last thought - it is absolutely essential that both parents are on the same page in regard to discipline (that often requires alot of prayer!). Also, if we struggle with wifely submission and the children witness that, then we'll have a more difficult time insisting on obedience. Don't ask me how I know .
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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MarilynW
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Some other parenting resources which bring into question the whole traditional reward/punishment system of discipline are:
Unconditional Love
and
Hold Onto Your Kids
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MarilynW
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Another recommendation - (not a Catholic book - similar to the above 2 mentioned)
The Natural Child: Parenting from the Heart
Just gives a different perspective to balance traditional disciplinary methods.
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LisaR
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www.ezzoinfo.com
www.ezzoinfo.org
have some interesting perspectives.
I WILL say that Dh and I both have Theology degrees, and we went through "Growing Kids God's Way" with a fine tooth comb.
Dh especially (he's got the advanced degrees!!) was horrified at the multiple, SERIOUS Theological errors.
He said it should be called growing kids "ezzos" way, but that it was Blasphemous the way that Scripture was so warped, twisted, and taken completely out of context, even for a Christian, non- Catholic!
One example which saddened me greatly was the example that we should leave crying babies/infants alone for long periods of time in a crib because "Thank God that He did not come to His Son as He was Dying on the Cross" 
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Willa
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I do not see any Biblical warrant for "first time obedience". Does anyone know what Biblical verse the Ezzos and Pearls and such use to justify this principle? I've searched a bit through the years and found nothing to support it. Obviously obedience is important, but "first time" accompanied by physical punishment?
I think there is a wide range of ways to bring up children and possibly the children of your friend rarely have to be punished because the parents do a lot to train them positively. Certainly I've known families like that.
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Willa
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Eleanor
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Willa wrote:
| I do not see any Biblical warrant for "first time obedience". |
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I think this falls under the general mandate of "children, obey your parents." After all, if the children are giving their parents "second time obedience" (or third time, or fourth time), doesn't this imply that they were being disobedient up to that point? And if we let that behavior slide, aren't we giving them the message that disobedience is sometimes okay? 
To me, a family policy of "first time obedience" goes right along with setting clear expectations, and applying them consistently... i.e., saying what you mean, and meaning what you say. Whether or not to spank is a separate issue. There are plenty of other methods, such as time-outs and logical consequences, that can get the point across.
(Of course, all this is easier said than done, especially when mum is already at the end of her rope, and just wants to go and hide under the sofa!  )
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folklaur
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Eleanor wrote:
Willa wrote:
| I do not see any Biblical warrant for "first time obedience". |
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I think this falls under the general mandate of "children, obey your parents."
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Well, sure, but even us adults/parents are supposed to "obey God" and we mess that up all the time.
Lucky for us, God doesn't visit physical punishment on us each time . Granted, our own actions can cause physical discomfort sometimes, but it is a consequence of our choices, not a punishment meted out by God.
just sayin'....
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MaryM
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I agree with what Laura said as well as the importance of developmental stage in children. Expecting first time obedience with young children who don't yet really understand the expectations is not appropriate to their development.
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Eleanor
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cactus mouse wrote:
Eleanor wrote:
| I think this falls under the general mandate of "children, obey your parents." |
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Well, sure, but even us adults/parents are supposed to "obey God" and we mess that up all the time.
Lucky for us, God doesn't visit physical punishment on us each time . |
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As I've suggested above, it seems to me that a policy of "first time obedience" doesn't need to involve physical punishment. But I do think that it makes sense for some type of consequence (whatever it might be) to occur each time there's deliberate disobedience. Of course, this doesn't happen to adults in everyday life, but the needs of children are different. In the case of young children especially, their ability to plan and reason is in a very early stage of formation. They benefit from repetition, clarity, and consistency, to a degree that isn't necessary or desirable for normal adults.
Regarding the methods that God uses to "discipline" us... it's true that He doesn't smite us with bolts from heaven when we do wrong (well, not usually!). But this sets aside the point that He has given authority to various human institutions, including the family, the Church, and civil government, to do much of His work on the ground, so to speak. Within these societies, the leaders have applied their Divinely given authority in a wide variety of practical ways, depending on their particular circumstances. Of course, we need to follow God's example in balancing justice and compassion, but I'm not sure that it would be helpful for us to try to directly and literally imitate His actions -- which, after all, are largely invisible, not to mention unfathomable. (If this isn't what you were getting at, I hope you'll excuse my misunderstanding.)
On a more practical note, I really like this book:
Have a New Kid by Friday: How to Change Your Child's Attitude, Behavior, and Character in 5 Days by Dr. Kevin Leman
His method isn't especially warm and fuzzy, but I wouldn't describe it as harsh, either. One aspect involves outsmarting your child, using delayed logical consequences delivered in unexpected ways... which is as much fun (and as effective) as the author promises. Unfortunately, this doesn't really work on toddlers, due to the delay factor, but I think my 3-year-old is just about ready for it. <heh, heh, heh... >
Anyway, that's it for me; DH has reminded me that this topic is on my personal "do not post" list, as the conversation tends to just go on and on. Phrases like "first time obedience," "questioning authority," etc., seem to have different meanings to different people, and discussions have a way of becoming polarized, or else people end up talking at cross purposes. When it comes down to it, though, I suspect that most of us would probably agree on 99% of the issues.
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Willa
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Eleanor wrote:
| But I do think that it makes sense for some type of consequence (whatever it might be) to occur each time there's deliberate disobedience. Of course, this doesn't happen to adults in everyday life, but the needs of children are different. In the case of young children especially, their ability to plan and reason is in a very early stage of formation. They benefit from repetition, clarity, and consistency, to a degree that isn't necessary or desirable for normal adults. |
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I appreciate your thoughts on this, Eleanor, and know it's slightly unfair to follow up on your post when you're trying to drop out of it.
I just wanted to mention that perhaps "deliberate disobedience" is another one of those terms that mean different things to different people. Anyway, seeing the term clarified what I'm uneasy with about "first time obedience". In my family we don't allow deliberate, oppositional disobedience. The reason is that we think it's harmful for the child's spirit and soul to get into a habit of resistance.
But we do have a fairly wide "charitable assumption" that our children WANT to obey and need our help in figuring out how to do it. Our usual policy is to try to make it as easy as possible to behave and as difficult as possible to do badly.
I'm not denying original sin, but saying that a baptized child below the age of reason is not consciously in a state of defiance, generally, whatever the appearances. He is not developmentally mature enough to be that way. He's inexperienced in handling his passions and will, by definition. So working WITH the child to get obedience in the end is another way to approach the issue and has worked pretty well for us so far, though I've definitely had some hide under the sofa or sink under the grocery aisle type days too
I bet you are right and there would be a large margin of agreement in practice.
I also thought you made an excellent point that it's possible to "settle" for second or third-time obedience, and that this is wrong. That is, the child gets in the habit of putting off the obedience for a few run-throughs until Mom's voice raises enough, or whatever. That's NOT what I'm recommending -- again, I think I am usually looking at habits and customary behavior patterns.
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Willa
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happymama
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The topic of how to discipline is SO on my heart right now, because dh & I don't see eye-to-eye on it, which as previously noted, is a big problem!! I will look closely at the works referenced above when time permits.
One small thing that we do agree on, however, is that if a child does not eat the supper I give them, they do go to bed hungry. We see it as a "logical consequence" rather than a punishment. Sometimes I will go to bed hungry myself, along with the child, just to make a sacrifice for that particular child.
The biblical charge to work so you can eat does not apply universally, and I would argue that it does not apply directly and always to minors. Mother Teresa was criticized for feeding the poor instead of working to get them employed and improve the economy of India. She would say, "They are hungry; I will feed them. YOU go out and change society. Together we can get both things accomplished."
As a parent, I see it as my responsibility to provide food for my kids when they are hungry. An act of gentle mercy towards a heart of defiance can really have a great effect; and how much better my kids behave when they are NOT hungry!! I see teaching the kids and myself how and why to behave as a journey, not something I expect to cure immediately.
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SallyT
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Hm, this is timely for me, as I'm at my wits' end with my two youngest (6 and 4), specifically over the issue of first-time obedience. I really don't want to raise automatons, or children who obey me out of fear, and I wouldn't even be that hung up on obedience being instantaneous, except that lately it's so . . . NOT instantaneous. And I wouldn't care except that, well, 1) disobedience isn't good for their souls, and 2)it really, really gums up the works around here.
Today I had to go to the Really Big Store That Sells Everything. I had to take the youngest two, and it's raining and chilly, and they were in shorts and t-shirts, and I said, "Go put on sweatshirts, you two." I said it about, I don't know, thirty times. And the first time I said it, I really expected them to go and do it (faith is the conviction of things not seen, after all). By the time they'd actually done it, I had lost both my desire to go to the Really Big Store (not that I wanted to go there all that much, but in this town, when you need a shower curtain rod . . . ) and my cool. I was ready to beat them. Fortunately I didn't. I don't think I even beat them emotionally, though I wanted to do that, too. But when I go to Confession this week, it's going to be all about impatience and cluelessness and inability to discipline . . .
So I think I need to go read some of these books. We do spank, minimally, but I'd like it to be even more minimal. I'd like to avoid having situations where that's the outcome. And while I don't want Stepford Children, I do want life to move forward with people listening to me and doing what I ask them when I ask it and not necessarily needing me to write a dissertation explaining why. They are fairly bright, thoughtful, self-directed, usually-healthily questioning kids, and I like them that way -- but I'm still the mother, and sometimes things have to happen just because I say so.
I have had kids spend mealtimes in their rooms, which they HATE. I don't deprive them of food -- I always think of Polly in the Magician's Nephew being given "dinner with all the nice bits left out," so that's what I serve them in their room alone, and they really do seem to think they're in Alcatraz. You have to be pretty heinous in my house to be banished from the table, but it happens.
All right, I think I've been hiding from them long enough now! Back into the trenches.
Sally
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hylabrook1
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Sally -
I can really relate to the foot-dragging induced frustration. No great advice, I just hear a tape of my own voice saying, "If I'd wanted it done in 20 minutes, I would have waited 20 minutes before asking you to do it..."
Peace,
Nancy
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folklaur
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Not trying to fan flames here.
But.
In the "sweatshirt" example. Is it possible that they have learned that they don't really need to listen to you until they hear a certain tone, or you yell or whatnot? That you don't "really" mean it? (NOT that you don't really mean it, in your own head, but you have taught them by your actions that you don't.)
If they are doing it all the time, wouldn't it be because they know at what point the parent "means it"?
If I really want my kids to do something - right now - I make sure I have their attention, have eye contact, and I ask them to do it...and they do. If I just holler out, "Get on your jackets" it isn't going to get the same result. Maybe it should....but kids think what they are doing are just as important as whatever an adult it doing. And it is to them. If they are busy, involved in what they are doing - and if you don't have their attention - they can more easily tune you out, even if it isn't on purpose. (I can compare it to when I am reading a book and am totally absorbed - my dh can be saying soemthing to me and I won't hear a thing. I am not being rude on purpose, I am just lost in my own thing....)
If the adult has taught them that "when I holler out to do something I don't really mean it until I start to really yell and get angry" - that is what the parent has taught them over time, and so that is what they learned.
Of course you can change the behavior! And of course you would want to! - but it seems to me that EVERYONE is going to have some behavior learning to do. If that makes sense.
(you in this post did not mean any particular "you." It was used in a general sense only.)
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hylabrook1
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I agree with what Laura says. One thing I try to remember to do when I ask the dc (or even dh) to please do *whatever* is to say, "In about half an hour, could you please" or "Sometime today, but before dinner, would you..." Also giving *heads up* kind of messasges helps, "In 10 minutes we need to leave for the library, so now would be the time to find shoes." Those are examples of *my* learning to mean what I say and say what I actually mean. But still, there are those times when we all forget what really works, and I hear that tape again.
Peace,
Nancy
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Mattie
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Personally I love Love and Logic, it is very common sensical an not harsh. Let the consequence do the teaching... Which at times is do hard for me to let go and not just get mad. But again as with every discipline method Mom (and dad) has to be CONSISTENT. Which for me is the hardest!
Anyways hope this helps.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Discipline/1st Time Obedience/Ezzos
