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Willa
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Self-Education
Here is the version in modern English
Has anyone started reading this chapter?
She writes:
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| Knowledge is not sensation, nor is it to be derived through sensation; we feed upon the thoughts of other minds; and thought applied to thought generates thought and we become more thoughtful. |
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This seems to be her objection to methods of education that rely too heavily on "sensory" things. She thinks these things -- such rhythmic dancing, sensory work, creative self-expression, are valuable, but not sufficient in themselves.
This reminds me a bit of what Pope Pius says about false systems of education in Divini Illius Magistri:
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| But many of them with, it would seem, too great insistence on the etymological meaning of the word, pretend to draw education out of human nature itself and evolve it by its own unaided powers. |
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It is interesting that Pope Pius was writing in 1929 and CM was publishing her Philosophy of Education in 1922! I think both of them had their eyes on some of the same new trends in education.
Charlotte Mason holds, from having worked with the Parent Union school system for many years, that relying on the childrens' appetite for knowledge (in the form of ideas) leads to a love of learning:
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--Children shew delight in books (other than story books) and manifest a genuine love of knowledge.
---During the last thirty years thousands of children educated on these lines have grown up in love with Knowledge and manifesting a 'right judgment in all things' so far as a pretty wide curriculum gives them data.
---But, always, it is the book, the knowledge, the clay, the bird or blossom, he thinks of, not his own place or his own progress. |
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SO -- love of knowledge for its own sake, not spurred by grades or competition; "right judgement", and delight in books. It seems wonderful, doesn't it? Does it seem to ring true? She says that she hates to speak about herself, but that 30 years of putting her principles into practice has led to exactly this kind of result.
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Willa
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MicheleQ
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WJFR wrote:
| Has anyone started reading this chapter? |
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I just picked it up and started re-reading it. It's been a while since I last read it and I am remembering why this is my favorite volume.
I have this underlined
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| ...the answer cannot be given in the form of 'Do' this and that, but rather as an invitation to 'Consider' this and that; action follows when we have thought duly. |
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This is what I love about Charlotte, her humility. Even after all her years of success she does not claim to know the right way but asks us to "consider" her ideas --to consider the type of education she proposes. Certainly she can attest to its validity but her approach to us is gentle and leading instead of authoritative and definitive like so many others who claim to understand how education happens.
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| action follows when we have thought duly. |
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I cannot possibly measure how much I have thought on these ideas over the last 12 years since I first heard of CM and yet still they are germinating and new understanding springs forth regularly as my children grow and change.
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| The life of the mind is sustained upon ideas; there is no intellectual vitality in the mind to which ideas are not presented several times, say, every day. |
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How true! I love ideas and I love talking about them. My friend Julie calls it "idea-euphoria" and it's a favorite thing to do when we are together.
Imagine how many ideas we "process" everyday. How many are fleeting, how many do we reject or file away for another time? How many do we act on?
But essentially what CM is asking us to consider are those ideas that
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| influence life, that is, character and conduct; these, would seem, pass directly from mind to mind, and are neither helped nor hindered by educational outworks. |
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She goes on. . .
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| Every child gets many of these ideas by word of mouth, by way of family traditions, proverbial philosophy,--in fact, by what we might call a kind of oral literature. |
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Surely we can all relate to this as it reflects so much of what we talk about here and why we do all the things we do in regards to sharing the Faith with our children.
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| But let information hang upon a principle, be inspired by an idea, and it is taken with avidity and used in making whatsoever in the spiritual nature stands for tissue in the physical. |
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I can't help but see a connection here to liturgical year activities (that's not the only connection but the one that stands out most for me right now) and how doing these things bring the spiritual in the physical. I think this is really important for children and their understanding of things. Of course without the underlying idea that inspires it all it would be worthless and yet with it, it becomes incredibly important.
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| Our business is to give him mind-stuff, and both quality and quantity are essential. Naturally, each of us possesses this mind-stuff only in limited measure, but we know where to procure it; for the best thought the world possesses is stored in books; we must open books to children, the best books; our own concern is abundant provision and orderly serving. |
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And not just in books these days huh? There's quite a bit of really good stuff shared here daily!
But there it is in a nutshell, our "business" is to "give him mind-stuff, and both quality and quantity are essential."
And what are the advantages to this type of education? CM says it...
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satisfies brilliant children and discovers intelligence in the dull. It secures attention, interest, concentration, without effort on the part of teacher or taught.
Children, I think, all children, so taught express themselves in forcible and fluent English and use a copious vocabulary. An unusual degree of nervous stability is attained; also, intellectual occupation seems to make for chastity in thought and life. Parents become interested in the schoolroom work, and find their children 'delightful companions.' Children shew delight in books (other than story books) and manifest a genuine love of knowledge. Teachers are relieved from much of the labour of corrections. Children taught according to this method do exceptionally well at any school. It is unnecessary to stimulate these young scholars by marks, prizes, etc. |
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Now that's exciting! And it's what made me want to know more about CM from the start. And yes I do think it's true. I've seen it and continue to see it --we all have-- in children who are educated this way (even if it isn't called the CM method or "Real Learning").
I have to go, the morning is flying by and my to do list is long.
Thanks for starting this Willa. It's been a while since we've had a good CM discussion and I look forward to other's thoughts!
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MicheleQ
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Well, um, gee I'm feeling a bit self conscious here. I was hoping I'd come back and find a good conversation going but now I'm wondering if everyone whose read this just thinks I am full of it. 
Doesn't anyone have anything else to say??
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Mary G
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Michele -- how could I think you're full of it?
I just re-read chapter 1 tonight and agree with most (if not all  )of what you say. This chapter (and in fact this book) really sold me on CM's philosophy of education. I'm just not sure why she never went the "whole way" and suggested folks homeschool as who is more apt to see the whole child, the potential of the child and his/her person-ness.
I like her distinction between a well-written text and a "rhetorical passage written in journalese" -- basically, altho she doesn't use the term here -- living books vs twaddle.
I really like her closing line at the end of Chap 1:
The teacher who allows his students the freedom of the city of books is at liberty to be their guide, philosopher and friend; and is no longer the mere instrument of forcible intellectual feeding.I just wish she would also stress that since NO ONE stops learning, the teacher in fact continues the learning process everytime her students tackle something.
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SuzanneG
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My dd are all under 6....and this chapt. was VERY helpful to me. So often with small children and a desire for a CM education, you wonder and question, "am I doing "enough?" "maybe we should be 'doing' more." Even though I know no formal schooling is encouraged before the age of six...you still wonder, question, etc.
]"We must open books to children, the best books; our own concern is abundant provision and orderly serving."
Interesting that the word "serving" is used.....PROVIDE and SERVE!!!!
"We feed upon the thoughts of other minds; and thought applied to thought generates thought and we become more thoughtful."
This is so basic once you think about it, but not something I actually ever considered. As kids we used to roll our eyes at my dad being "thoughtful"...and I certainly didn't appreciate it as a child. I want my kids to appreciate and engage in "thoughts" and savor them! This is why this forum is so great.....thoughts can be considered, pondered, etc. and eventually it generates a new thought. Again, so basic, but I like how she talks about it.
When talking about the advantages of her theory she writes:
"It satisfies intelligent children and discovers intelligence in the dull. It secures attention, interest, concentration, without effort on the part of the teacher or taught." I like this. Again, no actual experience with this WHATSOEVER but wouldn't this be great?
"Intellectual occupation seems to make for chastity in thought and life."
So, "feeding upon the thoughts of other minds" essentially is a sort of "guarding their innocence" and appreciating beauty and truth. Chidren will be appalled at the horrid, and recognizing untruthfulness and evil...part of chastity.
"People are naturally divided into those who read an think and those who do not read or think; and the business of school is to see that all their scholars shall belong to the former class; it is worth while to remember that thinking is inseparable from reading which is concerned with the content of a passage an not merely with the printed matter."
For those who have "reluctant readers"...do you disagree with this? thoughts?
Toward the beginning of the chapter, she writes:
Our schools turn out a good many clever young persons, wanting in nothing but initiative, the power of reflection and the sort of moral imagination which enables you to 'put yourself in his place.'
Oh, I SO want my children to develop this empathy that she refers to here. This is one of our top reasons for wanting to HS....to be able to help our dc get beyond that self-absorbsion and be able to nurture others by "imagining yourself in their place."
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Mary G wrote:
| I'm just not sure why she never went the "whole way" and suggested folks homeschool as who is more apt to see the whole child, the potential of the child and his/her person-ness. |
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Vol. 1 is entitled "Home Education: training and educating children under nine".
I haven't read this, but does she "advocate" home education until around this age (9), and then after that just assumes that the children would be in school? So, she never made the "leap" to home education for the older children?
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Could someone elaborate on "Education is the science of relations" .....
"....children have no difficulty in understanding principles, though technical details baffle them."
I don't understand this. It seems like children LIKE the details....although maybe she's talking about older children, in which case maybe it would make sense. All I know are "littles"
Michele:
I thought EXACTLY about the liturgical year activities and talking about the Faith too, when reading the quotes you mentioned above! It also made me think about Helen's posts about Sunday Mass Preparation .....helping children relate the spiritual to the physical. So much "mind-stuff"!!!!
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Mary G
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SuzanneG wrote:
Mary G wrote:
| I'm just not sure why she never went the "whole way" and suggested folks homeschool as who is more apt to see the whole child, the potential of the child and his/her person-ness. |
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Vol. 1 is entitled "Home Education: training and educating children under nine".
I haven't read this, but does she "advocate" home education until around this age (9), and then after that just assumes that the children would be in school? So, she never made the "leap" to home education for the older children? |
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Yes, Suz -- I was going to mention that you definitely want to read the Home Education book because it really does sum up how you should teach them before sending them off to school. Remember, she's writing in the early 1900s in England when folks had governesses/nannies/local schools for their kids and then sent them off to the bigger school around 9. CM seems to advocate concentrating on developing good habits BEFORE sending them to school ...
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Mary G
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SuzanneG wrote:
Could someone elaborate on "Education is the science of relations" .....
"....children have no difficulty in understanding principles, though technical details baffle them."
I don't understand this. It seems like children LIKE the details....although maybe she's talking about older children, in which case maybe it would make sense. All I know are "littles"
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I understand "science of relations" to refer to showing the children the big picture; stuffing their heads full of dates doesn't mean anything lasting, but if you place it in context, help them to live the events by reading about the people involved, what they did, how they lived, the children will "own" the event.... does that make sense?
I think an example is the difference between text books or basal readers and living books or literature. The first two just give broad brush strokes and bits of info; the living books and GOOD literature give the children a chance to "be" in the zone....
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Willa
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Mary G wrote:
| I don't understand this. It seems like children LIKE the details....although maybe she's talking about older children, in which case maybe it would make sense. All I know are "littles" |
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In Home Education CM says: Who remembers the horse-in-a-mill round of dates and places he learned in school as a child? Elsewhere she says that when children ask for bread, we don't give them pebbles -- that is, things that are indigestible and don't nourish.
I have a couple of children who love details and facts but I don't think that was what she was criticizing. Children LOVE reality and concrete things they can think about and chew on mentally.
I think it was like Mary has said -- that the things we are tempted to stuff into the childrens' heads are sometimes things that they don't need. ... things that could be learned in an hour with little trouble later in their life. They need and want REAL things, things that (as CM also says elsewhere) they will remember with pleasure and usefulness when they are adults.
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Willa
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Willa
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MicheleQ wrote:
Well, um, gee I'm feeling a bit self conscious here. I was hoping I'd come back and find a good conversation going but now I'm wondering if everyone whose read this just thinks I am full of it.
Doesn't anyone have anything else to say?? |
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I'm so glad you carried on the discussion, Michele.
I printed yours out yesterday to read -- thought it was wonderful. But didn't have time to respond, yesterday.
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Willa
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Willa
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About home education for older children--
I read a Parent's Review article about some older children who received a home education through the Parents' Union Schools founded by CM.
Michele probably knows more about it, but from my reading it sounds like there was a branch of the PNEU that provided correspondence courses for people to teach their children at home whether through a governess or personally.
Anyway, here's the PR article -- good reading:
To Prosper in Good Life and GOod LIterature
It is from 1967 so maybe the "home-school" branch didn't get started till later.
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Willa
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MicheleQ
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WJFR wrote:
About home education for older children--
I read a Parent's Review article about some older children who received a home education through the Parents' Union Schools founded by CM.
Michele probably knows more about it, but from my reading it sounds like there was a branch of the PNEU that provided correspondence courses for people to teach their children at home whether through a governess or personally.
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Yes that's it exactly. it was the PUS or Parent's Union School. Kathryn and I have copies of the syllabi used for the home correspondence school and they are what we used as a model for Mater Amabilis.
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MicheleQ
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I don't know when it started but the syllabus I have on my desk right now is dated 1921.
Kathryn knows about all this better than I do...being a British historian and all that.
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WJFR wrote:
| I think it was like Mary has said -- that the things we are tempted to stuff into the childrens' heads are sometimes things that they don't need. ... things that could be learned in an hour with little trouble later in their life. They need and want REAL things, things that (as CM also says elsewhere) they will remember with pleasure and usefulness when they are adults. |
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OK, that makes sense.
It reminds me of all the nonsense I "learned" in school....but yet nothing made sense. I was "lost" because I never made the connection with religion / politics / values / nature / art / etc....ad infinitum, ad nauseum.....
It wasn't until I saw how ALL these things were RELATED...Catholicism, Conservative politics, family values, literature, etc.....all of a sudden the world made sense to me and I saw my place in God's tapestry.
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Willa
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SuzanneG wrote:
It wasn't until I saw how ALL these things were RELATED...Catholicism, Conservative politics, family values, literature, etc.....all of a sudden the world made sense to me and I saw my place in God's tapestry. |
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Great summary answer of the question you asked about the "Science of Relations". 
Yes, there is a tapestry and even though children -- adults -- only see bits and pieces of it, knowing that they connect and finding the connections for oneself. ... is a great gift. I think this is close to the heart of how CM saw true education (as opposed to technical training, which is a different thing).
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Willa
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Willa
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SuzanneG wrote:
"Intellectual occupation seems to make for chastity in thought and life."
So, "feeding upon the thoughts of other minds" essentially is a sort of "guarding their innocence" and appreciating beauty and truth. Chidren will be appalled at the horrid, and recognizing untruthfulness and evil...part of chastity. |
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I bet you are right! I hadn't thought about it exactly that way before.
But also, focusing on things outside oneself -- BIG ideas and activities -- seems to move young people past the kind of self-absorption and self-indulgence that leads to inchastity.
Charles Kingsley talks about a young London beauty keeping her mind and heart pure by concentrating on a nature collection or journal, for example or a wild energetic young boy keeping out of trouble by bird-nesting and so on.
I quoted the Kingsley quote which CM used in Home Education on my blog--Love of Nature from earliest days
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Should we go on to the next chapter? What do you think, Mary G and everyone?
I thought Suzanne raised an interesting question about "reluctant readers".
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"People are naturally divided into those who read an think and those who do not read or think; and the business of school is to see that all their scholars shall belong to the former class; it is worth while to remember that thinking is inseparable from reading which is concerned with the content of a passage an not merely with the printed matter."
For those who have "reluctant readers"...do you disagree with this? thoughts? |
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If I had one, I would look at what is causing him to be reluctant -- a learning issue? habits of reading not formed? whatever, and try to go from there.
This summer I realized I hadn't really done any serious reading aloud to my then 3yo. His older brother is delayed and still much prefers simple repetitive board books. So my 3yo was capable of much more advanced books but just not in the habit of listening to them.
I planned a time to separately read aloud to him and his love of books flourished.
When my oldest first started homeschooling in third grade, he "hated reading". We just hadn't had enough time in our busy school schedule to read those wonderful chapter books for kids his age. All his reading was "school-directed". He was losing his motivation.
I started reading aloud to him from the most wonderful books I could remember from childhood. Read-Aloud time became a first priority of the day -- providing treats along with it, setting aside time just for him, and so on. After he was hooked on listening to books, we started doing round robins -- I'd read a couple of chapters then leave him at bedtime to read the next one and ask him for a few details the next day before we started again. Gradually he was reading everything on his own. Not EVERYTHING, because I kept up the habit of reading aloud for years more, but everything he needed or wanted to read on his own. Now he sometimes reads to me : ).
If a child has reading disabilities, books on tape and reading aloud can fill in the gap. That way the child can learn to think about books even while not doing the actual reading, himself.
I do think books are important in education, partly for the reason Mary G mentioned -- it starts a lifelong pattern:
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| "The teacher who allows his students the freedom of the city of books is at liberty to be their guide, philosopher and friend; and is no longer the mere instrument of forcible intellectual feeding."I just wish she would also stress that since NO ONE stops learning, the teacher in fact continues the learning process everytime her students tackle something. |
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Willa
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Joann in AL
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Suzanne (?) wrote:
""People are naturally divided into those who read an think and those who do not read or think; and the business of school is to see that all their scholars shall belong to the former class; it is worth while to remember that thinking is inseparable from reading which is concerned with the content of a passage an not merely with the printed matter."
For those who have "reluctant readers"...do you disagree with this? thoughts?"
I think that one must look at this in the context of late Victorian/ early 20th century Britain. Wasn't Charlotte just one generation removed from Dickens' England? Wouldn't her world have consisted of lots of illiteracy amongst the "common" class? The working class? That's what it sounds like to me from reading her books. Children in the workhouses just never were exposed to literature or given the chance to become people who "read and think." I just don't think that there's a fair comparison here. One of my reluctant readers doesn't yet read, but he has a "copious vocabulary" and is not illiterate in the sense of not having knowledge or loving books. Children learn a lot from what they hear and narrate.
I think the hearing of ideas and sharing ideas can be effective even for children who don't yet read, or who don't "like" to read. I have seen in my 15 yo dd and 9 yo ds that the ideas presented in books-read-aloud often inspire them to read more for themselves. Reluctant reader #3, 8 yo ds, has not yet willed himself to sit still long enough to read on his own.
It is because of these 3 children that we are shifting into a CM type of environment. Interestingly enough this method seems ever so much more relaxed, effective and natural.
Anyway, I just think that what Miss Mason means is that all persons ought to be literate. And I think that in a Catholic CM homeschool environment a child would have to actively fight against himself and his parents to grow up to be illiterate in the context of CM's statement.
I know people who don't read or think. Persons who think that they have no need of the knowledge found in books or the collective knowledge of humanity. I think it would be very difficult to raise a child like this in a CCM homeschool unless there were some other underlying problem.
Joann
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Joann in AL wrote:
| I think that one must look at this in the context of late Victorian/ early 20th century Britain. Wasn't Charlotte just one generation removed from Dickens' England? Wouldn't her world have consisted of lots of illiteracy amongst the "common" class? The working class? That's what it sounds like to me from reading her books. Children in the workhouses just never were exposed to literature or given the chance to become people who "read and think." Joann |
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Yes, OK, that helps to put it into perspective and remember the times that she's coming from.
Thanks, Willa and Joane for your examples, that helps a lot and makes sense.
__________________
Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: CM vol 6 --ch 1 Self-Education
