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Mackfam
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WEEK 1 --- March 28 - April 2
:: Introduction - The Seven Secrets to Raising Healthy Boys
:: Chapter One - Boyhood Under Siege
:: Chapter Two - Bucking Peer Pressure
Let the discussion begin!!!
What are your thoughts?
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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SeaStar
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Right to Chapter Two:
The question is, however, is happiness enough? Is aspiring to raise a son to be happy more important than raising a boy to be good?
I think this is a crucial point. Do I want my son to be happy... most parents want their kids to grow up to be happy. Or... do I want him to be "good"?
What if we look at it this way: I want my son to know God and do His will- because what makes us truly happy: doing our own thing or following God's plan for our lives?
Then the next question is: how do we teach our sons to learn what God's will for them is?
I think when you get to that question you sort of enter a whole different realm of thinking as far as how you raise your son. The answer can't be found in sports or video games or buying more stuff for him.
I think that is where you really get into the whole issue of how you spend your time and the examples he sees to follow.
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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JodieLyn
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It goes along with the idea of been "penny smart and pound foolish". Which is buying the cheaper item now because it costs less.. but lasts a lot less so you end up buying another relatively soon instead of waiting and paying a bit more for a longer lasting item.
Do we buy the easy thing to make our boys happy right now.. or do we keep them toeing the line for the longer lived happiness of doing the right things even if it's hard at times.
I love the research that Dr. Meeker included about religion and boys. How often do you hear that anywhere else? All these programs to keep kids off drugs, away from alcohol, high self-esteem, protect them from STD's (at least if not actually encouraging chastity), keep 'em in school etc but it's all right there.. that boys with a strong religious faith are shown to do better in the research.. consistently.
Sports can be wonderful or horrible.. so much depends on the type of organizations and coaches. In some ways it's a great substitute for the hard physical work that so many boys miss out on.. but on the other hand the time and money and hystrionics involved can be 
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Grace&Chaos
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SeaStar wrote:
| I think that is where you really get into the whole issue of how you spend your time and the examples he sees to follow. |
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I love how she spends time emphasizing the importance of fathers in their sons lives. "Boys need to see fathers who behave as good men so they can mimic that behavior. They need to see men at work. They need men who set standards..."
I spend the majority of the day (all day) with my boys and I try very hard to set standards and instill good habits. This I do through the books we read, the activities we engage in, rhythms we create and the interactions/relationships they build. But...
While I know that my sons love me and repeat this through out the day, there are things that I am very aware that only dad will be able to pass on. And at the end of the day I am so pleased to see how my boys will just light up and re-energize as soon as dad walks in!
I appreciate that in the first chapter she mentions the importance of their (dads) roles in our boys lives. I know I am blessed with a good man to raise our children with.
(sidenote) I have to say that when I read the following line I knew this is a book I'm going to enjoy: " Think of him as a person, complete and whole."
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Jenny
Mom to dds(00,03) and dss(05,06,08,09)
Grace in Loving Chaos
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Grace&Chaos
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JodieLyn wrote:
| I love the research that Dr. Meeker included about religion and boys. How often do you hear that anywhere else? All these programs to keep kids off drugs, away from alcohol, high self-esteem, protect them from STD's (at least if not actually encouraging chastity), keep 'em in school etc but it's all right there.. that boys with a strong religious faith are shown to do better in the research.. consistently. |
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She is very straight forward on this issue. It is a reminder to me that besides academics I am also responsible for presenting our faith on a daily basis. Done in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways. Unless we were paying for a parish school my boys would not be getting daily "faith" formation in their lives through their schooling.
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Jenny
Mom to dds(00,03) and dss(05,06,08,09)
Grace in Loving Chaos
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JodieLyn
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Grace&Chaos wrote:
| I love how she spends time emphasizing the importance of fathers in their sons lives. "Boys need to see fathers who behave as good men so they can mimic that behavior. They need to see men at work. They need men who set standards..." |
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Grace&Chaos wrote:
I appreciate that in the first chapter she mentions the importance of their (dads) roles in our boys lives. I know I am blessed with a good man to raise our children with.
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I'm not sure but I may have gained a greater appreciation for my husband than I gained insight into boys
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Kathryn
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I just picked up my book copy at the library tonight but in re-reading the excerpt from the MeM magazine I highlighted these points:
"We fear that our boys are cutting themselves off from us with iPods, earbuds and computer porn. We grimace as our boys are inundated with cheap, nasty dialogue and graphic images that reflect cheap, nasty values and an impoverished imagination."
My son (almost 11) seems soooo drawn to the world of music and tv and computers and it's rarely anything I find of value. He keeps trying to put it on this hip hop music where, as an adult now, I hear and understand the innuendos in the music and find even some of the beat of the music subpar. We soooo limit what music he can hear, what to watch on tv and do on the computer but I find it disturbing that he gravitates toward these things and I'm not sure where he even picks it up. I keep telling him...garbage in, garbage out. He wants an iPod and I say, no way b/c I can't trust that he'll choose appropriate music. Then he wants a cell phone...yeh, right! Where does he get these ideas? There are some tv shows that are ok but then the commercials are garbage. This is one area I have to be so exceptionally vigilant about with him but I guess I don't understand the lure. I know at his homeschool classes some of the kids have cell phones at his age so I guess he thinks it's all "cool". Is this natural?
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Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
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MaryM
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SeaStar wrote:
Right to Chapter Two:
The question is, however, is happiness enough? Is aspiring to raise a son to be happy more important than raising a boy to be good?
I think this is a crucial point. Do I want my son to be happy... most parents want their kids to grow up to be happy. Or... do I want him to be "good"?
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This happiness as goal aspect of the book struck me to, Melinda, so I'm very glad you mentioned it. Because it is a thought I've had many times in the past couple of years. I realized that, no, being "happy" is not what I wish for me children (boys or girls). Because I know that they can not be happy always - that is unrealistic. I don't want them to face unhappiness, but I know they will, so really what I had decided I wanted for them was peace. To me that is an ability to accept the challenges and hardships that come our way, turn to God for support, comfort, guidance in those times. To rest assured that they are in God's loving embrace no matter what and to have that inner peace. In doing so the happiness is even happier and the hard times aren't hopeless. Not sure if that makes sense. It's hard to explain and is coming from having an adult child.
This whole thing with already having adult children, I read this book and think I've already parented past the time these books cover. Have I done it well enough? It's not all turning out the way I envisioned. Can I change things for the ones who are left? Will it be different? I know that they are all still growing and developing at every age so yes, I still am parenting the adult children? How much influence do I still have in comparison to the other influences of the world? I know I'm rambling....
...as I am reading this book while also reading Free Range Kids (Skenazy). Shouldn't be doing that...  Anyway Meeker talks about the importance of the fathers and the strong influence a good, caring, and involved father has on sons as is being discussed. I totally agree that is huge for boys and definitely is major factor, but she I felt negated peer pressure (which I'll define as a wider scope of outside influence not just "peers"). But what about those boys that have GREAT dads and do go astray - or not necessarily into real trouble but somewhat veer off the path you had anticipated. In Skenazy's book she tries to help parents feel better by pointing out how we can make mistakes and our kids are going to be okay - they are also influenced by those around them, not just parents. I know she is presenting it as reassurance so we don't beat ourselves up for the mistakes we make as parents, but it is a stark reminder that our kids are influenced by others, though she almost puts too much emphasis on the impact of peers to our children. It really is in my opinion, a combo of influences and we can't assume that great dad means son stays on track. When we see those outside influences in the real world having an impact it is hard.
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Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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SeaStar
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Mary-
Do you feel how sons turn out is really a combination of three things... peers, father and individual child with his own genes and makeup?
In some families, all the kids are being brought up with the same mom and dad, yet the kids (boys and girls) can turn out so vastly different. I have to wonder how much individual personality comes into play.
One thing that struck me, also, is how much our society has "devalued" the natural boy. I guess the modern boy has become the male equivalent of the modern housewife: highly undervalued as a whole .
Everyone, especially schools, wants boys to be different- quieter, cleaner, slower, calmer. And more like girls. But God made boys the way they are... and I'm not going to argue with God!
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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Christine
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SeaStar wrote:
Right to Chapter Two:
The question is, however, is happiness enough? Is aspiring to raise a son to be happy more important than raising a boy to be good?
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I would say that being good and being happy go hand in hand. Contrary to what the world teaches happiness does not come from without; rather, it comes from within. Happiness comes from living a virtuous life and abandoning oneself to God's will which necessarily means that it comes from being good. We need to encourage our boys to embrace the greatest commandment, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind." (Matthew 22: 37) It is only through living good virtuous lives and abandoning themselves to God's will that our sons will find happiness (even if that happiness is only realized in Heaven).
According to St. Teresa of Avila, "In this holy abandonment springs up that beautiful freedom of which the perfect possess and in which there is found all the happiness that can be desired in this life for in fearing nothing and seeking and desiring nothing of the things of the world they possess all."
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Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
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MaryM
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SeaStar wrote:
Mary-
Do you feel how sons turn out is really a combination of three things... peers, father and individual child with his own genes and makeup? |
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Yes, Melinda, that is a huge piece of it, I am finding. Personality/temperament is an factor. And add that pesky "free will" we have. I guess all I was trying to say in my rambling is that we can't attribute who a boy becomes to a single factor. Do that one thing the right way and everything is perfect, just like we dream it to be.
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Mary M. in Denver
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JodieLyn
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That makes sense Mary. I got the feeling from the book that Dr. Meeker was rather focusing on if that one piece, the father, is missing and what a difference it makes to the boy. Not that they can't be influenced by other things but that it's much more likely, easier? for the boy to follow peers and his own "free will", if he didn't have a father (or father figure) involved in a good way with him.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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greengables
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I am joining in ladies! I picked up my book last night and can't wait to begin, but duty calls first and after a long day of traveling I have to tend to the children and house now.
Looking forward to it with excitement! We have seven wonderful and all unique sons!
Jill
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Greengables - wife to best friend and mother to 11 blessings on earth
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Kathryn
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Ok...disregard my post above about my son and his lure into tv, computers, music etc. That's apparently ch 4 for next week's discussion...Electronic Matters! Guess I didn't move beyond the first 3 chapters until I really starting skimming thru.
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Kathryn in TX
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stellamaris
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MaryM wrote:
| This whole thing with already having adult children, I read this book and think I've already parented past the time these books cover. Have I done it well enough? It's not all turning out the way I envisioned. Can I change things for the ones who are left? Will it be different? I know that they are all still growing and developing at every age so yes, I still am parenting the adult children? How much influence do I still have in comparison to the other influences of the world? |
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These questions plague me, too, Mary. I have struggled through both positive and negative interactions with my older boys. Two are active Catholics, one is not. It is truly a source of grief for our whole family. So, like you, I ask, "Have I done it well enough?...How much influence do I still have? What could I do differently?" It is so hard to realize that you have to let go at some point and they need to make their own choices, good or bad, and reap the consequences.
Dr. Meeker makes an important point,
Dr. Meeker wrote:
| You should never feel powerless with your son...He needs--and wants--the benefit of your wisdom, life experience, and maturity. |
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It is easy to feel powerless as your boys move into later teen years, but I think if we remind ourselves that we DO HAVE wisdom and experience, we will be able to share that more effectively. Later in the chapter, she adds:
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| Musicians, screenwriters, and movie producers sidle up beside adolescent boys and try to convince them that parents are the foe, that they, the pop culture p*mps, understand your son better than you do... |
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In addition to convincing our sons that we are "stupid" and "out-of-date", they also try to convince us as parents that we don't have either the authority or wisdom to tell our children what to do. Popular culture attributes wisdom to the young, not to the old. It is VERY easy to buy into this mentality without even realizing it. It takes a lot of perseverance and prayer to counteract this insidious message of parental powerlessness.
SeaStar wrote:
| In some families, all the kids are being brought up with the same mom and dad, yet the kids (boys and girls) can turn out so vastly different. I have to wonder how much individual personality comes into play. |
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Yes, I agree completely with your point here, Melinda. Dr. Meeker comments that
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| The foundation of any boy's life is built on three things: his relationships with his parents, his relationship with God, and his relationship with his siblings and close friends. |
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Personally, I think she places too much emphasis on factors OUTSIDE of the boy himself. Ultimately, it is the soul himself who chooses God or not. He can't say, "My parents were at fault..or my friends.." Of course, it is crucial to try to build a positive, loving relationship with each of your children, but some of the success of that effort depends upon the child himself. Maybe she is trying to touch on this idea under the phrase "relationship with God", but I do think we as parents tend to think it is all up to us to produce a holy son. It isn't. We must do our part, but God does His (the mystery of election), and the child does his (the mystery of free will).
When we fail to recognize the child's very significant role in his own development, we can become proud when our child meets our expectations or enter into despair and guilt when things are not turning out as we hoped. I don't think either one is good...we want to love our sons unconditionally, but we don't want to take on ourselves their good or bad decisions.
Lastly, I agree completely with the author about the role of the father. There is no substitute for a great dad, and our dh's, as Catholic fathers, need our prayer support and respect as they try to emulate St. Joseph in their parenting tasks. It is so important that we moms support our husbands in their relationship with our sons. Sometimes they will seem a little harsh, or loud, or serious, when we women would have a more conciliatory approach. But these challenges help our boys think, help them get an idea of the seriousness of their bad behavior, and give them respect for their dads. A touch of fear is not an entirely bad thing, if it doesn't go too far! Remember "the look" from your dad when you misbehaved? You changed your behavior based on that "look" partly out of a little fear, didn't you? Don't undercut your dh's authority or damage your son's respect for him by open disagreement with his approach. Speak to your dh privately. (I'm talking here of the ordinary family, not one where abuse or excessive anger is occurring). In the teen years, that respect and fear are definitely helpful. Dad is not their "buddy", he's their "DAD", and they need to know that. However, if a great dad is not part of the picture, God knows this, too. My own dh had a very difficult dad...but he turned out great. He overcame a difficult childhood because of his mom's steady love and presence, and because God gave him the grace to look at his dad and say, "I want to be something different for my family." So, a person can overcome a difficult parent-child relationship. It's not the ideal, however.
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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Grace&Chaos
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stellamaris wrote:
| Lastly, I agree completely with the author about the role of the father. There is no substitute for a great dad, and our dh's, as Catholic fathers, need our prayer support and respect as they try to emulate St. Joseph in their parenting tasks. It is so important that we moms support our husbands in their relationship with our sons. Sometimes they will seem a little harsh, or loud, or serious, when we women would have a more conciliatory approach. But these challenges help our boys think, help them get an idea of the seriousness of their bad behavior, and give them respect for their dads. A touch of fear is not an entirely bad thing, if it doesn't go too far! Remember "the look" from your dad when you misbehaved? You changed your behavior based on that "look" partly out of a little fear, didn't you? Don't undercut your dh's authority or damage your son's respect for him by open disagreement with his approach. Speak to your dh privately. (I'm talking here of the ordinary family, not one where abuse or excessive anger is occurring). In the teen years, that respect and fear are definitely helpful. Dad is not their "buddy", he's their "DAD", and they need to know that. However, if a great dad is not part of the picture, God knows this, too. My own dh had a very difficult dad...but he turned out great. He overcame a difficult childhood because of his mom's steady love and presence, and because God gave him the grace to look at his dad and say, "I want to be something different for my family." So, a person can overcome a difficult parent-child relationship. It's not the ideal, however. |
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I just had to share. After we read our St. Joseph picture book a couple of weeks ago my oldest ds said "Dad is a lot like Saint Joseph, except he yells at us a lot" (by yell he meant tells them what to do) and my oldest dd said in return: "Yes, he is a lot like Saint Joseph who didn't have to yell a lot because he had baby Jesus as his son; Dad has you guys!" Lots of laughing after that .
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Jenny
Mom to dds(00,03) and dss(05,06,08,09)
Grace in Loving Chaos
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JodieLyn
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Grace&Chaos wrote:
| and my oldest dd said in return: "Yes, he is a lot like Saint Joseph who didn't have to yell a lot because he had baby Jesus as his son; Dad has you guys!" Lots of laughing after that . |
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I like your oldest dd.. I'm sure several of mine would have loved to thought of that one 
I do find it interesting that it's the pressure on the parents.. what the other kids are doing or what the other parents are doing.. or what society is telling them (parents aren't important, out of touch, it's not that way anymore) as sounding like it's more important than the peer pressure the kids deal with themselves.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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stellamaris
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Jenny, ! I remember a priest once telling me when I confessed to yelling at my children, "That's what you're supposed to be doing!"
It's OK to sometimes lose our patience with bad behavior and raise our voices a little...it sends the message loud and clear, "That's unacceptable behavior."
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
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JodieLyn
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Caroline I try and specify.. there's nasty words and nasty tone.. yelling is just volume.. and around here mom needs volume even for happy announcements
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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stellamaris
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Yes, Jodie, you are right. Thank you for clarifying my statement; I'm talking about yelling just in terms of volume, not mean, harsh, cruel words. Actually, boys do very well with direct correction--the clearer, the better. It needs to be firm (and a little loud), but not emotional (not saying I always am successful on the "not emotional" front  ). And boys do NEED volume...I remember that Andrew Pudewa mentioned this on his tape about teaching boys. They actually do not have hearing quite as acute as girls and teachers should speak loudly to boys. It kind of explains why things always seem a little louder when there are boys around.
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: BOYS SHOULD BE BOYS - WEEK 1
