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Martha in VA
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| Posted: Feb 12 2007 at 10:19am | IP Logged
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I almost didn't post this for fear that it might be offensive to someone. Please know that I'm not intending to be judgmental but rather seeking a right perspective on this situation.
Yesterday, after Mass, my 9 y.o. daughter came to me nearly in tears and with a terribly distressed expression on her face. She said, "Mama! Father ____ smokes!" My heart hurt for her because she seemed to feel betrayed that this man whom she had just watched preach a homily and celebrate the Eucharist, then proceeded out to the sidewalk outside the front door of the church to light a cigarette.
I feel so sad because he is setting this example for the young children of the parish. I don't want my children to be unable to respect him as a spiritual authority because in seeing him smoke, it has caused them to stumble....possibly even causing them to be curious about it too. 
Our family had a conversation on the way home from Mass about how we're to take care of our bodies and also that there are times when we all do things to our bodies that aren't good - i.e. eat candy. However, I expect we will have more processing to do.
This is not meant to be a commentary on how I think this priest is a terrible guy because he smokes because I don't think that. I guess I just wish he would use a bit more discretion. And of course, I am praying that if he is in bondage to nicotine, he will be freed.
My Dh says it's a bigger deal to me than it is to him because of my evangelical background. Smoking within evangelical circles is really frowned upon....but then again so is drinking! (And I enjoy a good class of red!  )
I would appreciate any perspective any of you can offer. I hope this post hasn't been offensive in any way.
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hylabrook1
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| Posted: Feb 12 2007 at 11:18am | IP Logged
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Father is undoubtedly a good and holy man. He is also human. Unfortunately, some of us pick up habits that are hard to break (in this case, also addictive). Your dc might be able to process this in terms of hating the sin but loving the sinner. You could pray for him to overcome this habit.
Maybe it's more a bad habit than a sin? I suppose that's something someone could choose to debate. Sometimes sins are less cut-and-dried than other times. (Please don't jump on me for that. It's sometimes the same act, but with different intent, or getting caught in a pattern that we then don't examine. Sometimes in instances like that, stopping the behavior might be a process instead of a *here today, gone tomorrow* sort of thing. I guess I'm trying to say that even when we recognize someone else's behavior as *not right*, we can't always point a finger and say that person is sinning or evaluate the seriousness of their sin).
Just my 2 cents.
Peace,
Nancy
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Martha in VA
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| Posted: Feb 12 2007 at 11:34am | IP Logged
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hylabrook1 wrote:
Father is undoubtedly a good and holy man. He is also human. Unfortunately, some of us pick up habits that are hard to break (in this case, also addictive). Your dc might be able to process this in terms of hating the sin but loving the sinner. You could pray for him to overcome this habit.
Maybe it's more a bad habit than a sin? I suppose that's something someone could choose to debate. Sometimes sins are less cut-and-dried than other times. (Please don't jump on me for that. It's sometimes the same act, but with different intent, or getting caught in a pattern that we then don't examine. Sometimes in instances like that, stopping the behavior might be a process instead of a *here today, gone tomorrow* sort of thing. I guess I'm trying to say that even when we recognize someone else's behavior as *not right*, we can't always point a finger and say that person is sinning or evaluate the seriousness of their sin).
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Thank you for those wise thoughts. I was already thinking through how to help my daughters separate the sin from the sinner. However, I'm not even certain I would say he's in sin but rather that he's making a bad choice for his body. I wonder though if it's too much for me to expect that he wouldn't do it in full view of the children in his flock. I just don't know...
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Donna Marie
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| Posted: Feb 12 2007 at 11:55am | IP Logged
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Martha,
My twin dds saw the same thing when they were the same age as your dd. They too were very hurt and confused. I explained about things like you did and added that maybe God wanted them to pray for him. I explained how hard his job was and how hard it was to stop doing such a thing and that surely God needed their prayers to help him more. I explaind that sometimes God shows us things because He knows that we can help Him make a difference.
They had also heard, at that time, about their great uncle (who is a priest) and how hard it was for him to run 2 parishes in MD and the demands it made on his health( and he was a non-smoker btw), so they understood things better....he needed prayer... and they had their mission. I loved the way they handled themselves after that.
HTH!
God Love you!
Donna Marie from NJ
hs momma to 7dc 
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chicken lady
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Smoking is not a sin!!!!!!! We have St Pope Pius x FOR THIS EXAMPLE!!!!!! The Catholic church does not teach this, in fact I have had this discussion MANY times with priests, and Theologians, and I have yet to find one with sound theological training say it is. It is VERY much a protestant, puritanical belief! And a major politcal agenda to make something moral. Example...kill your baby but you have no right to smoke! People want to believe they are moral so they have made smoking their moral stand.
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humanaevitae
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Maybe mention how much responsibility priests have and that the devil tries to "tempt" them even more as they impact more people. I remind our children about a particular stumbling block they have and how difficult it is to stop doing it even once they are aware of it.
Smoking is bad for your body so we shouldn't do it. However other common things that we do each day are bad for our souls- yelling, hitting brother, ignoring mother, shirking our duty...
Just some random thoughts.
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JennGM
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molly wrote:
| Smoking is not a sin!!!!!!! We have St Pope Pius x FOR THIS EXAMPLE!!!!!! The Catholic church does not teach this, in fact I have had this discussion MANY times with priests, and Theologians, and I have yet to find one with sound theological training say it is. It is VERY much a protestant, puritanical belief! And a major politcal agenda to make something moral. Example...kill your baby but you have no right to smoke! People want to believe they are moral so they have made smoking their moral stand. |
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I think I would answer with the same enthusiasm as Molly.
I'd also point out if this priest is older, seminaries and military passed out cigarettes, almost encouraged smoking. They were providing something to occupy their senses and time...take them minds off other sensual areas.
It's a very, very hard line to draw with the children to point out that overeating, smoking, etc. are bad for the body but not sins. They would have to fulfill the 3 points of making a mortal sin: 1) act must be sinful 2) person must know it is sinful and 3) consciously chose to sin anyway.
Like Molly said, there is nothing that makes smoking an intrinsic evil.
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Taffy
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Perhaps this is a good time to remind children that priests, while they are people who have dedicated their lives to God and serving His flock, are still human and still have many human flaws as we all do. Our priest smokes as well - can't figure out why he doesn't quit, he must see what lung cancer does to a person. 
Our priest recently gave up a bad habit of using foul language during the homily.  Some days, when he was on a roll, I was quite thankful that my boys weren't listening too closely.  Priests have a VERY tough job, we have to remember that they share our weaknesses and need our prayers...
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Martha in VA
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molly wrote:
| Smoking is not a sin!!!!!!! |
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Hi all,
I really didn't mean for this thread to be about whether smoking is a sin or not. I am in agreement with you Molly. Rather, I was hoping for suggestions about how to process through this myself and with my children. You have all been very helpful. Thanks!
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| Posted: Feb 12 2007 at 1:42pm | IP Logged
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MArtha I don't understand what the problem is. Sorry if I misunderstood. I thought your dd was scandalized by smoking. I think it is hard to draw this line with my dc also, I tell them we really don't want them to smoke and we point out reasons we (dh&I) believe it not good, but I clearly point out how many things we do thta people could turn in to a soap box and say the same thing about. ie chocolate, homeschooling, home births, no vaccines etc I explain we have to discern the difference between moral issues and dislikes. I know people who think bottle feeding is a moral issue, now I breast feed myself but please lets not make these huge moral jumps. I believe breastfeeding is good for all women and babies, I think HS is best for all families, I DON"T think I have the right to moralize these things. Does that make sense, I don't want this to sound harsh....sometimes it is hard to type what you mean!
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hylabrook1
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Ladies -
I am sorry I was not more careful in my wording/editing there. You are right -- smoking is not intrinsically a sin. BUT I feel strongly, for me, that to smoke would be an abuse of the good health God gave me. Maybe I'm leaning toward scrupulosity here, but I would feel that FOR ME to choose to smoke, given my conviction, would be intentionally doing something that I know is harmful to God's gift of health, and I would confess that. Maybe I would be told I was being overly hard.
IN NO WAY did I mean to imply that this is the case for everyone. That was the reason for the whole parenthetical thing about the same act not always having the same implications. I do not look at smokers and think they are sinful. It is very much a personal matter.
Truly, I am sorry. I think I said something that was a little too personal to be helpful to others. That was wrong and unfair of me.
Peace,
Nancy
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chicken lady
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As for me, no sweat Nancy, smoking is a hot button topic  Discussion is good!!!
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aussieannie
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Smoking is not a sin, this is true. I think though it is understandable to have your dd be a little shocked by it. I don't know why - but on the odd occasion I have seen a priest smoke it seems 'contrary' to see this image in some way. For me, I think, "I could never imagine The Cure of Ars smoking." We always wish to see our priests display saintly qualities but of course in my private observances and thoughts, I remind myself, I am no saintly person and the children deserve that too!
But in saying all that, I understand the addiction that could have very well started before entering seminary (very likely) and so serious judgements are definately not made! But I still cannot help my first reaction either. (Interestingly, it doesn't bother me to see a lay person smoke.)
Martha you are now wondering how to go from that initial reaction to place of 'understanding' for your daughter. I can see what you are seeking. I wouldn't say to her that her initial reaction was wrong or bad, but like all things our children see in life that upset them or make them ask questions (big things and little things) the importance of explaining to her that it is a bad habit and therefore a fault rather than sin.
Discussing the senerio of the great likelyhood it was formed before dedicating his life as a priest and how hard the habit is to break, in fact if the priest is elderly there can be health risks in stopping at this stage, even if he wanted to. Maybe he has already tried but has been advised against it by his doctor - these are the hidden things we would never know and to discuss those sort of things with your dd can help her see things 'objectively' and then 'subjectively' for we need to do that with all things in life.
Her sensitivity is in my opinion, commendable (St Therese also was very sensitive too and was easily let down by earthly things, which was a quality that made her reach for heaven in a special way) but with children like this the careful guidance so that no pharisaical tendencies don't develop over time, are important. With my children, I ultimately explain that 'but for the grace go I' without saying their original observation was wrong. Sounds like this beautiful girl would love St Therese as a special patroness! - maybe she already is?
PS: This is a posting from a girl who worked in a Tobacconist shop for a few years - no joke! (so I don't have a moral thing with it.)
I still can't help my initial feelings with cigarettes and priests (and nuns too if I ever saw it!)
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humanaevitae
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I ask this in sincerity and with a quiet voice ...
If I know that smoking is harmful to my health and possibly others through 2ndhand smoke, isn't that a sin for me?
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Martha in VA
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humanaevitae wrote:
If I know that smoking is harmful to my health and possibly others through 2ndhand smoke, isn't that a sin for me? |
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I believe it would indeed be sin for me...for these very reasons. Perhaps that is part of my dilemma in how to handle this with my daughters.
We did however, have a wonderful discussion over lunch about how Father ____'s smoking is not cause for us to doubt his love of God or his sincerity in his faith.
It's amazing how this whole experience has been like a mirror in my own life...forcing me to take a good look at myself. Maybe that's why it has been so uncomfortable. 
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aussieannie
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Well I think it is a grey area and things can become sins depending on the circumstances.
The priest issue that I'm mainly concerned about is the addiction issue that there is an element of loss of control that seems disconcerning for religious.
When I think of the harms of smoking, I think also of the eating of junk food, diet coke (I have started drinking this again and I KNOW it makes me sick!  ) - then I come from a background of heavy metal posioning and chemical sensitivities - the use of all household cleaning products harm my health seriously - I read a study recently that elderly who use poisons in the garden and cleaning products with chemicals in the house have higher rates of cancer. So much out there is seriously harmful to our health and we all indulge in some or all of it to varying degrees.
We bound to look after our bodies and those of our children as best we can but we live in a world today where it is so hard to be perfect --- it is such a grey area, and everything has to be judged subjectively.
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We have lots of priests and seminarians who smoke out here. Very good people. They have smoked at our house with my husband enjoying a cigar along with them.  Some of the homeschoolers had the same reaction when they saw the Vicar General of the diocese join in at a family party.
Actually, it was sad and very Protestant to think they could be so judgemental and disgusted by him. This is a very prudent and holy man who knew children were present at a family event. If it was as scandalous as they acted like it was he NEVER would have done it.
Tobacco, alcohol, caffeine, etc. can be used in moderation as a stress reducer or as recreation.
Also, priests are people, too. Priests can struggle with an addiction just as we all can. Some people's "addictions" may not be as evident to everyone such as too much computer, too much TV, too much coffee/pop, etc. Smoking happens to be high profile.
Being too puritanical can be very harmful. I think its a good time to remind kids that alcohol and tobacco are acceptable in moderation.
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PS
I reread my post and it may sound too harsh. I didn't mean it to sound quite as harsh as it came out.
I don't smoke nor would I allow it in my house. (Our guests go outside).
I also agree with Annie when she says that its the idea that a priest can have a "loss of control" or addiction that can be distressing.
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Martha
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humanaevitae wrote:
I ask this in sincerity and with a quiet voice ...
If I know that smoking is harmful to my health and possibly others through 2ndhand smoke, isn't that a sin for me? |
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That's what I was wondering. Pius X is not an example exonerating that, imho. He would not have known the harm as most did not back then.
I was thinking more long the line of scandal or leading others to sin?
Of course, this does not make him a horrible priest or anything like that at all! He most certainly is human with all the weaknesses that entails. However, maybe a kind word could be mentioned to him, privately, to at least remove himself from small public eyes when doing this? I think sometimes priests (and adults in general) honestly forget that there's a few wee little souls running around as yet unjaded that really do look way up to priests. A reminder would be for the good of the children and it wouldn't hurt the priest either. If anything he may actually appreciate hearing that there's someone in the parish that adores him so much.
My fil smokes and is forbidden to ever do so within sight or smell of any of our children. Partly because of one with asthma, partly because it reaks and the smell clings to the kids, partly because we figure the less time/places he can smoke the better. As it is he can only smoke in his care to and from work because my mil has never let him smoke in their home the entire 30 something years they've been married. LOL (And yes, he started while in the army.)
I would simply explain the conversation with your dd to the priest. That's what we did with my fil. When our oldest was about 14 months old, he came in reaking from a sit outside on grandpa's lap, picked up a french fry and proceeded to pretend to smoke it. That was it right then and there for grandpa's smoking around the kids. I guess some would have thought it was cute, but we did not. 4 months later my mother's battle with cancer took her life. She had been a smoker for 40 of her 53 years. 
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hylabrook1
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Martha -
One of the reasons we in our family take the matter of smoking to a degree that may be perceived as extreme to some is that we all watched Grandma die of lung cancer. She had been a smoker for umpteen years and , although clearly we all have to die of something, every single one of her health problems (in addition to the cancer) was directly caused by her smoking. It just seemed like slow suicide. Of course, she became addicted before all the dangers were exposed as they have been now. But living in this day and age, knowing what we do about the dangers, for me to smoke would be taking things over the top.
Again, this is not necessarily true for everyone. It's just me/us (dh, our children) and where we are on the subject.
Peace,
Nancy
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Feeling sad/disillusioned after Mass (
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