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Elizabeth
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Katherine's very informative post on fasting in the Byzantine rite has me wondering about fasting in the Tridentine tradition. What was fasting like in the Roman rite prior to 1962? Jenn's posts on Carnivale remind us that the time of preparation for Lent used to have more meaning for the homemaker..
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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Very wonderful post, Katherine. Even my mil in the Western Church has memory of many more fasting days. I'm torn with seeing the wisdom of the Western Church of lifting the obligations. It should be voluntary. There was too much confusion that eating meat on Friday or breaking fast was a sin on par with contraception or murder!
But we are in a self-indulgent society, and imposing a bit more self-denial would do us a lot of good. 
Personally this is one of the biggest struggles for me. I've always wanted to attempt more serious fasting, like the Eastern rites. But I could never make it in the Eastern Church with all those fasting restrictions. Even our small rules in the West it's extremely hard for me to operate without enough protein. I do not do well on vegetarian diets.
So I have to adapt to my body's needs and fast in other ways. That is a fasting in a sense--I have to give up my "preferences" to fit in with everyone, or to do larger penances. I'm sacrificing the sacrifice, so to say.
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Kim F
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It should be voluntary. There was too much confusion that eating meat on Friday or breaking fast was a sin on par with contraception or murder! >>
I hear this type of objection not infrequently but I have to say I am not sure where it comes from. We and many of our local friends and families observe the traditional latin rite fast days and noone I know has a real problem doing it. Pregnant and nursing women are exempt and I do eat more protein when I am one or the other. That can happen with fish and eggs and nuts though on fast days.
Kim
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Kim F
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Also - There is an interesting thread someplace else on the boards about fasting for internal cleansing. Juice fasts etc. It's interesting that people have found a need to do that since we dropped the ritual fasting habit. I try to see the fast days as physically cleansing as well as spiritual discipline.
Kim
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guitarnan
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I've heard priests say, also, that you can fast from a particular thing (doesn't even have to be food, it can be an activity). This might be an alternative for those who can't do a complete fast. You could choose a food item or group to sacrifice, for example...or fast from TV and use the time for spiritual reading instead...sometimes that type of fast is much more challenging than just giving up food for a while!
I remember all the fasting confusion, growing up. It was definitely hard to tell the difference between accidentally breaking your fast and a very serious sin. In my mom's childhood, the pre-Communion fast was three hours, not one, and kids used to faint at school Mass all the time, she said. 
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Kim F
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In my mom's childhood, the pre-Communion fast was three hours, not one, and kids used to faint at school Mass all the time>>
I can assure you noone here, nor any of our children's friends, has fainted. In fact they all still seem to have an abundance of energy during and after mass. I look at all these stories I used to take for granted so differently since this is just our lifestyle now. I think the implication, whether intended or not, is that the Church had instituted an unwise and possibly dangerous practice for however many centuries.
There certainly are exemptions of course and always have been. Just saying as a family who is very familiar with the practices it hasn't posed a problem at all. It is a discipline to be sure but then its not nearly the discipline it is in the Eastern Church either. I would love to hear Katherine's take.
Kim
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kjohnson
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I guess I didn't mention this in my post, but not following the fasting guidelines has never been considered a sin in the East. Actually, when we were catechumens in Orthodoxy my spiritual father recommended that I abstain from only meat during the fasting periods. Instead I observed the whole fast during Great Lent. Then the following year, after he was transfered and I found a new spiritual father, I thought he was going to let me go deeper into the fasting. Instead, he forbid it because he knew that I was struggling with legalistic tendencies and knew that I didn't follow the recommendation the year before. He wisely thought it would be more of a exercise of the will to be obedient than to follow the fasting guidelines.
There is actually a story of one of the monks on Mt. Athos that he told me. One monk observed the fast perfectly and his spiritual father saw that he was getting very prideful about it. So he forbid him to fast on Holy Friday and told him he had to eat a steak. The monk was scandalized, but knew that obedience was the key to the virtues. And in the end he grew in humility and was set free from his prideful and legalistic mindset.
It's probably safe to say that the East sees the guidelines as the goal and just like the physical training of an athlete, you work up to them. You don't try to run a marathon when you've only trained for a 100 yard dash. In the East the faithful rely on the guidance of their spiritual father and someone in your position, Jenn, would have something worked out according to your bodies needs. The fast is not meant to harm the body. It seems very, very legalistic and harsh, but in practice it is very gentle and a slow and steady path.
As far as the Eucharistic fast and fainting, as long as you eat a decent meal on Saturday night, it's not too hard on your body if you are healthy. Even the elderly fast for much of the morning for blood tests in their doctor's offices. It can be done and if it is a hazard because of a health condition or because food is necessary to take medication, then one's spiritual father adjusts the guidelines.
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I find the whole fasting question a tough one. It seems so many people starve themselves for diet and fashion reasons - or for health reasons (detox) - and maybe this would get confused with the self-denial religious reasons. I personally tend towards being underweight and also have problems with blood sugar - so I do not fast - though we do follow the abstinence guidelines (tough as we have fish and nut allergies - just back on eggs!)- and we try to limit treats for Lent, make small sacrifices (eg no honey in tea) My husband always gives up alcohol and often has given up tv. I try to have the kids focus on fasting from other things eg computer time, bickering etc and also take up positive things.
Just my 2c!
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Kim F
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<<but knew that obedience was the key to the virtues.>>
I had a similar situation while pg. I knew I didn't have to abstain but was trying anyway. I figured if I had been vegetarian yrs earlier it shouldnt be a big deal. But darn I was hungry! I was told it was an obligation to eat the meat if there was a physical need for it and that the obligation to care for the growing baby trumped the merit gained by fasting.
Kim
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Kim F wrote:
I was told it was an obligation to eat the meat if there was a physical need for it and that the obligation to care for the growing baby trumped the merit gained by fasting.
Kim |
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Absolutely! You are so right! It's such a fine line. As mothers we have to lay down our lives for our children and fasting to their detriment would be exercising self-control in eating, but falling short in love (which is the greatest commandment).
I also should mention that in the East, if it is a fasting period and you are a guest and someone offers you food that you are abstaining from, it is better to eat it in charity than to make a pious example of yourself and offend your neighbor. One of my favorite Russian Orthodox priests in our area told me that even if he orders something at a restaurant and asks them to leave out the cheese, for example; if the dish is brought to him with cheese, he won't send it back because fasting is useless without charity.
Oh, and I purposefully left this out of my blog post so I wouldn't freak anyone out, but abstinence from marital relations is traditionally included in the Eastern fast. In that framework, there is little need for NFP and in the East the majority of babies are born 9 months after Pascha, Christmas, the feast of St. Peter and Paul or the Dormition. 
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Cindy Mac
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So I have a quick question regarding fasting that I'm hoping someone will have an answer for.
I was told by a priest last Ash Wednesday that fasting is over at sunset and that it is alright to eat and drink after sundown. Is this right? Doesn't seem like it would be to me, but not sure if I missed something somewhere. I'd appreciate any wisdom you can shed on this for me.
Thanks!
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guitarnan
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I didn't mean to imply that fasting is dangerous...just that perhaps everyone shouldn't do it. Children are exempt from the Ash Wednesday and Good Friday fast days, for example. Also, a child who eats dinner at 5:30 and then doesn't eat again until after 8:30 A. M. Mass the next day isn't perhaps in the same situation as one who gets a pre-bed snack before the fast begins...or one who's already sick...you get the idea...
I guess what I was trying to focus on was more the confusion in the past about fasting's importance, not about whether it was harmful or whether the fast rules should have been changed. I'm sorry if I confused anyone. I generally assume that if the Church changes rules and guidelines, that the bishops feel they have good reason.
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kjohnson
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Cindy Mac wrote:
So I have a quick question regarding fasting that I'm hoping someone will have an answer for.
I was told by a priest last Ash Wednesday that fasting is over at sunset and that it is alright to eat and drink after sundown. Is this right? Doesn't seem like it would be to me, but not sure if I missed something somewhere. I'd appreciate any wisdom you can shed on this for me.
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I wonder if the priest was referring to the liturgical day begninning at Vespers (sundown). This is the case in the East, but I don't know what the current practice is in th West. You'd think that it would be the same in the West since a vesporal Mass on Saturday evening is the same as a Sunday morning Mass. Hmmm...anyone? anyone?
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Cindy Mac
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BTW, when I was referring to drinking, I didn't mean water, I meant alcohol. 
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humanaevitae
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This is sort of on topic!
My 10 ds loves it when we travel during Lent as it means he will be fed a fish burger at MCD's. How do others handle this? In the same vein, my dd loves Lent as she tends to avoid most meat anyway but enjoys eggs, beans,etc...
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JennGM
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Cindy Mac wrote:
So I have a quick question regarding fasting that I'm hoping someone will have an answer for.
I was told by a priest last Ash Wednesday that fasting is over at sunset and that it is alright to eat and drink after sundown. Is this right? Doesn't seem like it would be to me, but not sure if I missed something somewhere. I'd appreciate any wisdom you can shed on this for me. |
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Cindy, there was another thread where MicheleQ found the answer for how long Ash Wednesday is observed, and it's from midnight to midnight.
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JennGM
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I hit reply too soon. About drinking alcohol, it's not forbidden in writing. This is where the spirit of penance enters. Is it allowed? Yes. During many places and times alcohol wasn't considered a treat, but sometimes necessary, as the water was unfit for consumption. But now, we have to weigh what would be the best decision, and it's personal.
humanaevitae wrote:
| My 10 ds loves it when we travel during Lent as it means he will be fed a fish burger at MCD's. How do others handle this? In the same vein, my dd loves Lent as she tends to avoid most meat anyway but enjoys eggs, beans,etc... |
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And here the spirit of penance applies, too. It's not the SPIRIT of fasting if we choose foods that we relish. Having lobster tail or dining at a great seafood restaurant isn't exactly what the Church has in mind. But your daughter can't help it if she enjoys the vegetarian approach. My mother loves fish of any kind, whereas it's not my personal favorite. I know in many places parishes host a fish fry on Fridays of Lent as a fundraiser. Here's where the choice of making personal sacrifices within the obligatory fasting and abstaining comes into play.
Code of Canon Law commentary on the rules of fasting.
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marihalojen
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Nicole, I went around and around with this fasting problem awhile back.
Give up food = svelt new look for summer = did I do it for God or for Self?
I think this year I'm going to try simple foods for Fridays. Rather than a breaded fish sandwich from McD's, if that was my preferred meal, I'd do a grilled or steamed fillet with rice. I'm going to focus on non-elaborate recipes and I'm thinking of trying to pray while cooking the Friday meal as well. So I'm considering how to make the cooking more meaningful and spiritual for me rather than just a new diet, if that clears matters up!
Cindy and Katherine, our priest gave a homily on this last year, Sundays are also exempt from Lenten fasting, so if you give up coffee, for instance, you can have coffee on Sundays. We all came back for Sunday Brunch (there are a bunch of Catholics in this marina) appalled, we just couldn't believe it. A calendar was even brought out and to get the 40 days of Lent you have to pull out the Sundays. Who knew? Not us anyway.
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Cindy Mac
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Just to clarify a little more, this was said at a Rosary meeting of women from the church (not an official church function) and the priest said he was hungry, and could he get some food and an appletini. Not sure if that changes anything or not. I just didn't feel good about the whole thing.
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JennGM
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Cindy Mac wrote:
| Just to clarify a little more, this was said at a Rosary meeting of women from the church (not an official church function) and the priest said he was hungry, and could he get some food and an appletini. Not sure if that changes anything or not. I just didn't feel good about the whole thing. |
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If it didn't feel good, your guardian angel was telling you so.
I remember at the end of Lent a few years back I went to Confession. I mentioned how I failed at observing my Lenten penances. This priest basically told me that as long as I loved God it didn't matter if I prayed, did penance, kept my personal goals, etc. God still loved me. I was quite  , and it didn't sit right.
Anyway, without priest bashing, sometimes you have to go with the little voice that tells you that it isn't right. Priests are not infallible. They are human, like us, and can make mistakes.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Fasting
