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Cici
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My husband and I continue to return to this "discussion" and I don't know how to respond, or to defend. Most recently inspired by DVC and Glenn Beck's (a former Catholic turned Mormon) radio response this morning.
It is his belief that you have to believe in God to get to heaven, but...that God could be found in Buddhism, Islam, whatever - the William James definition of truth is his motto. That (this inspired from a college professor - some 20 years ago) all religions have some form of the Golden rule. So Buddhists are going to heaven, Catholics, Mormons, yada yada. Doesn't matter how you get there.
Now, I do not presume to be God. I don't know. It does hardly seem fair to condemn those who haven't heard of God. Yet, if that is the case, what is the point of being Catholic, then, or anything really? Of course, I don't believe this, but I don't have any "reason", per se.
I need help. 
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Christine - mom to 
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MicheleQ
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Cici wrote:
My husband and I continue to return to this "discussion" and I don't know how to respond, or to defend. Most recently inspired by DVC and Glenn Beck's (a former Catholic turned Mormon) radio response this morning.
It is his belief that you have to believe in God to get to heaven, but...that God could be found in Buddhism, Islam, whatever - the William James definition of truth is his motto. That (this inspired from a college professor - some 20 years ago) all religions have some form of the Golden rule. So Buddhists are going to heaven, Catholics, Mormons, yada yada. Doesn't matter how you get there.
Now, I do not presume to be God. I don't know. It does hardly seem fair to condemn those who haven't heard of God. Yet, if that is the case, what is the point of being Catholic, then, or anything really? Of course, I don't believe this, but I don't have any "reason", per se.
I need help. |
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Cici,
The answer to this is to be found in the Catechism:
Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith. CCC 169
Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19). CCC 620
The Church is Christ's instrument. "She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all," "the universal sacrament of salvation," by which Christ is "at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God's love for men." The Church "is the visible plan of God's love for humanity," because God desires "that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit." CCC 776
The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God." CCC 816
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." CCC 818
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity." CCC 819
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
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Jen L.
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I am sure that you will have at least several great responses forthcoming, but in the mean time here are a couple of links to the Catholic Answers website:
Directly addresses "One God" and Mormonism
Christ vs Buddha
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Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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Jen L.
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Oops! I cross-posted with Michele.  You've already received your first great response from her!!
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Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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MaryM
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I feel very inarticulate to answer but when I have questions like this myself, my two favorite apologetics resources are Catholic Answers which Jen linked to above and Catholic United for the Faith. Here is the CUF tract on the topic - "Without the Church there is No Salvation"
Here is another good one from Catholic Answers - "Salvation Outside the Church"
These two sources always have clear and understandable explantions that are well documented with resources, Scripture & Church documents.
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Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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Cici
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| Posted: May 17 2006 at 10:36am | IP Logged
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Thank you, these are great (and I have now bookmarekd catholic.com).
Now, on a personal note. My husband (a proclaimed Catholic, mind you), in these discussions will point to one of our children and ask would God send these kids to hell for growing up in (insert country with Islam/Buddhism/ or insert Utah) - where they were raised to only know this religion and not hear of Catholicism?
I truly believe that those who seek - find. Regardless of where they are. I believe that true to His word, all of creation does, in fact, sing His Praises. I can't seem to convince my husband of this.
I see, above, Michelle's final excerpt from the Catechism (819) points to this, but can we explore it further?
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MicheleQ
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Cici wrote:
I truly believe that those who seek - find. Regardless of where they are. I believe that true to His word, all of creation does, in fact, sing His Praises. I can't seem to convince my husband of this. |
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That's because it takes faith and convincing someone isn't faith. What he needs is your prayer (which I am sure he already has)and what you need is to trust that in His time God will give your dh what he needs to believe the Truth.
Quote:
| I see, above, Michelle's final excerpt from the Catechism (819) points to this, but can we explore it further? |
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Keep reading, it's all there:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
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Jen L.
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Here's a quote that I found in an article on CatholicCulture.com. Salvation Outside the Church
Notwithstanding that the Church is the only *objective* means for salvation, it need not be the only exceptionless, subjective means of salvation. For instance, if a person belongs to another religion or even another Christian Church, that person will not be saved *because* of their religion but *despite* it, insofar as it departs from the truth revealed through and by the Church. Indeed, it should be stressed, lest indifferentism raises its ugly head once again, that the possibility of someone being saved outside the Church is simply that - a possibility. It does not mean ‘probability’ or even a ‘good possibility’, but only a possibility - perhaps even only a remote one. It goes without saying that there is no salvation outside of the Church for any properly catechized Catholic: "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certain terrifying expectation of judgement and the fury of fire which will consume the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).
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Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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Jen L.
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Another great article on Catholic Answers - No Salvation outside the Church
excerpt:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
Obviously, it is not their ignorance that enables them to be saved. Ignorance excuses only lack of knowledge. That which opens the salvation of Christ to them is their conscious effort, under grace, to serve God as well as they can on the basis of the best information they have about him.
The Church speaks of "implicit desire" or "longing" that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with "a sincere heart." In that seeking they are "related" to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).
On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).
The Catholic Church is "the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time" (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, "though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat." And when they eat of it, "without knowing it or willing it" they are "incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church."
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Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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Helen
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Our Lord Himself said:
"Amen, Amen I say to you no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born from above."
John Chapter 3:3
Our Lord said this in the context of His conversation with Nicodemus abut Baptism.
The Church, the authority given to us by God Himself with the power and wisdom to interpret the words of Our Lord tells us that there are three types of baptism: water, blood, and desire.
Water refers to sacramental baptism.
Baptism of Blood is the baptism of those who are willing to die for Christ, to shed their blood for Him, even if they have not received baptism of water.
Baptism of desire is for those who yearn to know the truth of Christ which is the Truth, who live good moral lives yet who, through no fault of their own have not received the Christian message.
I would suggest looking for more information on "Baptism of Desire."
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Ave Maria!
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Taffy
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Well, I don't have any words of wisdom but thought I'd add to the conversation... 
Your dh's arguments in saying that it doesn't matter what faith one believes, any of them will get you to heaven it strikes me as saying that a lukewarm faith is OK. As far as I know, being lukewarm about your faith is about one of the worst things you can be.
To say that it doesn't matter is to say that God will be accepting of a faith without a clear focus. While there are fundamental similarities to most major religions, there are also major differences which are not to be ignored.
Are we willing to die for what we believe? Are we willing to die because we refuse to turn from what our church believes?
As a practicing Catholic, I believe that the Church is God's voice on earth. It is closer to the truth than any other religion. However, my beliefs are coloured by what I've experienced in life. Someone who was raised with different beliefs or who has experienced God in a different way my not come to the same conclusions about what God is. We are human and our thinking is not perfect. God, however, is perfect and only He is able to judge whether we've chosen His path in our daily decisions and whether we've sought Him with our whole heart. For the Church to say that there is no other path to salvation is to say that the Church's judgement supercede's God's. Thus, the Church, in her wisdom, acknowledges that God is the only perfect judge of whether salvation is to be given or not.
However, we know and understand why the Church is God's voice on earth and the true path to salvation. If, knowing this, we decide to follow a different path, then we are, in essence, saying that we refuse to follow God's path. And this is how we condemn ourselves by not practicing our faith.
I'm sorry, that's about as clear as mud.  But, writing this has helped clarify things in my own mind and for this I thank you.
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Susan
Mom to 5 on earth and 1 in heaven
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Apologetics on religion,
