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Michaela
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Our parish has started a bible study on the Gospel of Luke.
Last week, for the first time ever, I heard that the account of Mary visiting Elizabeth didn't happen. Basically, Mary would never have visited Elizabeth "alone" ...women never traveled alone.
Can someone help me here? I understand the parallels Luke establishes with the Old Testament, but what I don't understand is being told it was all made up to establish these parallels to point to Christ.
Are we to understand this reading as fact or written simply to build a story?
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10 Bright Stars
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Well, who says that St. Joseph didn't do with her? That makes perfect sense to me, but did they have to put that detail in? Probably not. Why did they assume she travled alone? Does it specifically say that? Will have to look!  There must be some explanation for it. Perhaps consult a priest?
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guitarnan
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Luke was definitely all about relating the events of Christ's life to the Old Testament, but I've never, ever heard that he invented events to achieve that end. He wouldn't need to, if Jesus were the Messiah, which He is.
I've taken classes on how the Bible came to be written from a Dean of a diocesan seminary and from a Catholic college president (a very orthodox Catholic college, too).
It's easy to imagine Mary joining a group of travelers from the Nazareth area and going to see Elizabeth that way, or traveling with Joseph. In fact, Mary, Joseph and Jesus did just that when they went to Jerusalem later on (when Jesus was "lost" in the Temple). They traveled with a large group of people they obviously knew.
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Betsy
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Is this Bible study following a text? If they are I would look at who published it and see how orthodox they are. I think I would talk to your priest about it as well.
Truly, the visitation of Mary is a decade of the Rosary. I don't think it's made up.
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Michaela
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We are following a text, but that isn't in it.
This comment was made by the study leader (who is in charge of faith formation, RCIA, and he even trains the altar servers). He is an amazingly, hard working man in our parish. I just had a big problem with what he said. A few other people spoke up, confused because they've believed it all their life but he told us just because "Sister Mary Christmas" taught it doesn't make it true.
It has been bothering me all week. 
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JennGM
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What Betsy said. I do wonder if this is a sound Bible study suggesting you to disbelieve this part of the NT.
What should be suggested is that the Bible infers customs and manners and doesn't provide all details of how it happened. The children's book Destination Bethlehem provided some narrative on how traveling during this time occurred, even suggesting how Mary traveled to see her cousin.
Basically people during that time did not travel alone, for fear of robbers. And yes, women probably wouldn't travel on their own. But there were travelers and family and other people would band together, for safety in numbers. So while Mary went in haste to see her cousin, the Gospel does not state she went alone or how she went. That doesn't mean she didn't go, it just doesn't provide those details.
I just finished Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives by Pope Benedict. Similar to what Nancy says, he talks about the Finding in the Temple. First of all, he mentions how the Jewish Faithful had the tradition of going to Jerusalem, but never is it mentioned whether the women traveled there or were obligated to. Mary is mentioned traveling with St. Joseph and Jesus in that Gospel passage, but we don't know anything else about other women.
That probably doesn't make sense, but it's another example of how we don't have all the facts and some customs are implied and not spelled out.
Just because we don't know all the facts doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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JennGM
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Michaela wrote:
We are following a text, but that isn't in it.
This comment was made by the study leader (who is in charge of faith formation, RCIA, and he even trains the altar servers). He is an amazingly, hard working man in our parish. I just had a big problem with what he said. A few other people spoke up, confused because they've believed it all their life but he told us just because "Sister Mary Christmas" taught it doesn't make it true.
It has been bothering me all week. |
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It should be bothering you all week. I am going to come out strongly and say he's totally wrong and doing a terrible thing to mislead everyone. This is a basis of our faith. Putting a little doubt about this incident can make so much crumble. If she didn't visit, then there is no Visitation, there is no St. John in the womb leaping for joy, no Magnificat, no second part of the Hail Mary. It all starts to fall apart.
It's not about Sister Mary Christmas telling you. It's about the Church telling us. I found this passage in the Catholic Catechism, highlighting mine:
CCC wrote:
| 717 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." John was "filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb" by Christ himself, whom the Virgin Mary had just conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary's visitation to Elizabeth thus became a visit from God to his people. |
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I just briefly looked up in several of my Catholic commentaries and NONE of them even suggest such a thing that she did not travel there, even one commentary that is more liberal.
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guitarnan
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I feel even more uncomfortable with what you were told now that I know that the gentleman who said it wasn't speaking kindly of sisters who have followed a vocation to the religious and teaching life.
His own argument could be turned against him - how does he know what he says is true? Is there a Church document or section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that supports his statement that St. Luke invented this incident?
Maybe I am being oversensitive, but I am inclined to think that there is much in the hidden life of Jesus (and thus in the lives of his Blessed Mother and his foster father, Joseph) that we can't know about, and that we should trust that the incidents included in the Gospels are there for a good reason, not because they were invented.
The custom of traveling in groups dates back many, many centuries and, in fact, continued through the Middle Ages...pilgrims headed to Santiago de Compostela routinely traveled in groups for protection, for example. It's only logical to think that Mary would have traveled with others, but is that a detail that is important? Not really. What is important is Mary's encounter with Elizabeth and with the unborn St. John the Baptist, surely one of the most beautiful meetings in the entire New Testament.
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stellamaris
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I have never heard that the account in Luke of the Visitation is not actually historical. It sounds to me as if someone decided, rather randomly, that if the account had a spiritual sense (e.g., it fulfilled certain Old Testament types), then it couldn't at the same time have a literal sense. This is incorrect reasoning. As St. Thomas Aquinas said, "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal." (see CCC 116)
Furthermore, whoever put together this study did not take into account that not everything is recorded for us in Scripture, only those things necessary for our salvation. In all likelihood, Mary traveled with another person or even several people. However, the manner in which she traveled to visit Elizabeth is really not important for us to know. Rather, the effect of her presence--the sanctification of John the Baptist in his mother's womb, the fulfillment of Old Testament types, the example of charity, the important connection between the herald and the King--is what makes knowledge of this event necessary for our salvation and our understanding of Christ and His mission.
As you describe it, I think this study is poorly done, and I would recommend you not attend it further. Not every passage of Scripture is historically literal, but the events of Christ's life are. This study assumes, at some level, that we cannot know whether the Scriptural accounts of Jesus's life are true or legendary, an assumption which seriously undermines the foundations of faith.
The fact that the Church celebrates the Feast of the Visitation every year tells us that Holy Mother Church believes this account of Mary's visit to be true, even if the authors of this particular study and the gentleman teaching the course attempt to convince people otherwise.
Finally, having taught RCIA and quite a few Bible study courses myself, I question the teacher's attitude when questioned by the students in the class. His reply as you described it sounds defensive and critical, as if he's more concerned about whether you think he's correct than he is about finding/teaching the truth. Plus, I also do not like the attitude toward religious sisters that his reply reveals. I'm guessing he is relying wholly on one text and does not have a broad exposure to faithful commentaries on this Gospel, thus is unable to answer or address challenges to his teaching. I think you would do better to get a few commentaries yourself and just read them. I recommend either the Navarre Bible series or the Ignatius Study Bible series.
ETA: I suggest you also take your concerns to your pastor and ask him to answer this question about the veracity of Luke 1. I'm guessing (and hoping, too!)he has no idea that this is being taught in this class.
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Aagot
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Sadly this over stepping happens often. The fact that he could not provide a defense of his unfounded statement and instead tried to make the rest of you look foolish for having the nerve to question him, proves he is wrong.
This would make me walk out. Although you probably should bring it to the Pastor's attention, don't be surprised if he either doesn't care or agrees with the teacher.
I have had a theology student tell me " of course Mary had more children. No one in those days only had one child." Really? Wow, I guess logic is not required anymore.
A Sister leading an RCIA class told everyone that "of course it isn't a sin to miss Mass on Sunday to play golf or go to the Mountains instead. God is everywhere". Ugh! That one I complained to the Pastor and was reprimanded.
My question to all these people is, "who died and made you the Magisterium?"
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MaryM
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Aagot wrote:
My question to all these people is, "who died and made you the Magisterium?" |
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MicheleB
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I'm sorry this happened to you! 
I agree with the other ladies: Sister Mary Christmas or Mr. RCIA saying something does not make it true. The Church saying it does. 
Unfortunately, how to handle the situation is a bit stickier....Definitely talk to the priest. 
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Luke 1
