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Bookswithtea
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My kids have been watching some ewtn programs on the lives of the saints. I have been struck over and over again by the childhoods that these people had. It was very very different from the times we live in. Many times they were part of Christendom. Many parents aspired to have children enter monasteries and convents. Academic expectations were much different from today, less burdensome, overall. These people lived with a reality of survival, life and death in a way we are not in touch with. Its striking to me, the passion some of these young children had for Jesus, for the Eucharist, their longing to pray and live a monastic life, etc...
I'm not saying it was easier to be or to raise a saint then than now...then again, there was an infrastructure that supported the desire for sainthood and many many less distractions than we have now. And I don't mean consumerism. I mean things like, "getting into a good college." And didn't monastic communities accept candidates much younger then than they do now?
I don't want to idealize previous time periods. Its nice not to live with fear of the Bubonic plague and dying during childbirth because the doctor didn't wash his hands.
Still, I almost feel like everything is against us. A child who has a strong desire to be a saint isn't even taken seriously by his or community. A child is likely to be giggled at and responded to with, "Oh, isn't that cute!" by a church lady, kwim? And the more common homily is not, "be perfect, as I am perfect." Its more likely to be on the blessings of "the community of believers."
Do you ever feel like the odds are just waaaaaaaaaay stacked against us, and that homeschooling doesn't really fix the problem?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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guitarnan
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Here's what I think (and it's not a yes or no answer to your question).
Homeschooling has deepened my relationship with my children to the point where I'm comfortable discussing all possible vocations with them and letting them know that I will support their choices. They, in turn, know they can ask questions and I will answer honestly, including discussing the part about supporting their chosen vocations.
My daughter had the chance to attend an Oratory run by a vibrant order of nuns in our area last weekend - the weather was awful and I had to think hard about letting her go. I did send her, because I realized she had never really talked with a nun before...and she had a marvelous time!!! (Of course, we are snowed in this weekend, so she couldn't go today.) I was so thankful she had the chance to meet nuns who are happy in their vocations and learn about saints with them. I probably would never have heard about this opportunity if I didn't homeschool...
I do think societal pressures on young people distract them from listening carefully to God's call - unless they are taught how to do this. This could happen at home, at CCD, in Catholic school, at youth group...but it doesn't happen unless someone talks about it.
I think if you asked my son (18) about spiritual challenges he would tell you that it is harder than ever to be a faithful Catholic now - it's a different kind of survival challenge. And we have only to look to Haiti to know that the line between comfort and disaster can be very, very fine, and very easy to cross.
We're challenged on some very basic levels to look to Heaven in the face of a culture that rejects it. I'm guessing that this might be the reason that Pope John Paul II canonized so many saints - we need them as inspirations and intercessors.
I realize these are random musings, loosely organized. I hope some other members will chime in!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Bookswithtea
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You know, I tend to be one of those people who look to the past for answers, rather than a new way. I think that's what initially felt so discouraging to me while watching these programs with my children.
I am not convinced that attempts to emulate the lives and parenting methods of these folks will produce fruit.
Homeschooling is a start. We can provide a simpler life, though honestly, I don't think even a stringently simple life nowadays even comes close to the simplicity of an 18th century life. And we can provide a domestic environment that hopefully nourishes them with Jesus, with the Church and Sacraments, prayer and the inspiratio of the saints.
But we cannot ignore the technology and information overload we live in.
We cannot cut our academic expectations radically.
We do not have a strong Church community that supports our vision, although that is improving.
The longer I homeschool, the more I know families...good families whose parents truly did their best, struggling to help their young adults to continue to believe in Jesus. Many of them are failing to launch and their spiritual lives are not strong, in spite of their upbringing. I fear that homeschooling does not make us immune from the infections of our culture.
A mom once told me that she was told by another mother that her secret to raising holy children were daily mass and daily rosary. I think its not so simple as that. Maybe it was in the 1950's, even, when the Church felt strong and vocations were common. My in laws were raised in a state where Irish Catholicism ran strong. They both grew up knowing religious, and had religious in the family. Then again, they aren't Catholic anymore, but I tend to blame the 70's more than the 50's, kwim?
I know this is rambling. My thoughts are jumbled on this.
Homeschooling surely doesn't hurt. I think its better than the alternatives, and I love it. But I don't think its enough. What else can we do? Or is there anything else we can do?
Are the very things we try to give our children these days (ballet or sports, chess club, horsebackriding, scouts, etc) counter to our goals? Should we try to control and teach moderation when it comes to Facebook, gaming systems, unlimited texting, or should we leave it out of our lives? Music? Movies? Youth group or not? I guess this is what I mean when I think about simplicity several hundred years ago. Life was about hard work, growing food, hoping you had enough to make it through winter, sharing your small space with your family, gratefulness and helping your neighbor. And dreaming about heaven.
How do you inspire a child to dream about heaven instead of a Disneyland vacation or being the hero on their baseball team? Is it good if a child lives to hang out with the local youth group because at least its at church? Or is it detrimental to a life of prayer? Does the average homeschool child even want to live a life of prayer?
I guess I don't really think its about any one of the hot button issues that are commonly debated...how much exposure to pop culture, whether or not a family reads Harry Potter, or whatever. But the activities are all things that take time.
I don't think I know how to help a child to dream of Heaven or to want to live a life of prayer in our current culture. Is it even possible?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Maddie
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Yes, I feel and think the same thing all the time.
We met some sisters (not nuns, I learned this week there is a difference between a sister and a nun!) who spoke about their vocations and I was amazed. The common theme we heard throughout their talk was that "God calls who He will." One of the nuns was from a wonderful Catholic family, they said a daily rosary, daily Mass, all the wonderfully faith building things that we homeschooling families try to do for our families, and there she was, a nun. It seemed to flow naturally from her family culture that she would have a religious vocation.
Another Sister talked about her family, never prayed but on holidays, rarely went to church, the usual worldly story yet she and her only other sibling, a sister, are both professed Sisters!
I mourn the support from the culture but I have to place trust in God that He will call who He will. I think it is up to us to be sure to help them hear the call so they can respond.
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~Maddie~
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Bookswithtea
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Maddie, your post reminds of me In This House of Brede.  Weird connection, I know, but I just finished it. There is a strong theme among the nuns in the book that God calls. So I can see that it would be up to us to help our children to hear it.
But that still leaves me wondering how to do that. 
Thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one who wonders about this stuff. Honestly, I'm not naturally morbid. It was just really noticeable to me, over and over, how these saints were interested in holy things from such a young age, and no one at the time even seems to think its remarkable...as if its common or something! I don't know what to make of it.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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JennGM
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Books, I've been musing on this all weekend. I often like to take lessons from the past to see how to handle things, keeping in mind Ecclesiastes 1:9 "nothing new under the sun." I don't have a pat answer, just scattered thoughts.
I think we tend to forget that with each age there comes the particular hardships, and I don't think it was easy raising children to be Catholic then, either. I do think the stories of saints aren't always revealing all the hardships or can really put you in the culture at the time.
I think of Roman times, when the culture was so opposite of what a Christian believed. The Christian family would have to be so countercultural.
And I think of John Vianney's family, who lived in a time where they weren't sure if the Mass was a valid Mass or not, trying to find priest allied with Rome and the Pope, and not the ones with the National French Church.
But we are always given the grace sufficient for our own time, not for the past. I love that Pope John Paul has canonized modern day saints so that we can see that even with modern times and its unique problems one can still be saint. Christ called us all to be perfect and all to become saints -- not just a few from certain times, not just nuns and priests, either. I do agree this age is so navel-gazing and selfish that it is harder to find that element of giving all and sacrificing all and truly loving God above all things, because those "things" are so loud.
I think the writings of St. Josemaria Escriva are extremely helpful to remind us to embrace the present moment, to sanctify the ordinary, and recognize that sanctity can come from all walks of life, even modern living.
How to foster religious vocations if there is a calling? That's a bigger question. I think the common thread, whether modern life or "way back when" so much was family life, wholesome, prayerful, good examples of parents, united with the Church and liturgy, etc. All my reading seems to find that common thread. Catholic homeschooling can be very helpful in encouraging a family to live as a domestic church, united with the Church.
Modern day examples to encourage nuns and priests might be harder. I think reading stories about religious vocations, talking about it at home, inviting the priests to come for dinner, encouraging altar boys, checking out various convents for "come and see" weekends. Discussions about vocation and what it means, but also example. How do the parents embrace their vocation? What do we discuss at the family meal?
I'm all over, but I've also been reading some of my favorite authors on the liturgical year and wondering what happened? Some authors went liberal and turned into feminists, and the children left the Faith and became liberal. Still others stayed the course. What is the difference?
Nothing but the free will of the person. We can do our best, praying for our children, showing good example, teaching them their faith, leading the way, but in the end, it's all individual free will. We can't make them do anything. I think of St. Monica's tears and prayers and pleading for her son. But she could not make him do anything. Only grace, her prayers, her sacrifices, and in the end, he had to accept those graces with his will.
Just musings...
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Bookswithtea
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I agree, God's grace is sufficient. And in musing about it myself, I think that relationship is probably more important, in some ways, than what activities or parts of modern culture we allow into our homes or take part in. That's not to say that these things don't matter. But I'm not so sure its determined simply. What may be perfectly acceptable for one child may not be for another.
And every child has their own weaknesses, just like their parents.
I had thought of Roman times in comparison to Christendom, but I hadn't considered that period in French history. It must have been horribly confusing to know what was a valid mass.
In the end, I suppose that prayer is really the best recourse, as well as the only one. Two families can avail themselves of the same sacraments and helps, and one produces fruit and the other doesn't. It doesn't make sense. And I think its too easy to say, "Well, there must have been things going on in the house that we weren't aware of." Blaming the parent is the widely traveled road, imho.
Maybe its also about choosing hope in spite of the shocking number of odds against us.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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JennGM
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I agree, God's grace is sufficient. And in musing about it myself, I think that relationship is probably more important, in some ways, than what activities or parts of modern culture we allow into our homes or take part in. That's not to say that these things don't matter. But I'm not so sure its determined simply. What may be perfectly acceptable for one child may not be for another.
And every child has their own weaknesses, just like their parents.
I had thought of Roman times in comparison to Christendom, but I hadn't considered that period in French history. It must have been horribly confusing to know what was a valid mass. |
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And then how about raising children during the English persecutions, and more recently in Nazi times and Communist countries? Hard to display your faith, live openly in the world....
Bookswithtea wrote:
In the end, I suppose that prayer is really the best recourse, as well as the only one. Two families can avail themselves of the same sacraments and helps, and one produces fruit and the other doesn't. It doesn't make sense. And I think its too easy to say, "Well, there must have been things going on in the house that we weren't aware of." Blaming the parent is the widely traveled road, imho.
Maybe its also about choosing hope in spite of the shocking number of odds against us. |
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Yes, you completed my thoughts: prayer and trust/hope.
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Natalia
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Quote:
| I fear that homeschooling does not make us immune from the infections of our culture. |
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I think you are right. Homeschooling is not a vaccine against all that ails our society. It is more like vitamins that give your immune system a boost. I don't think that even belonging to the Church makes you immune. We are not immune and, behaving as if we are is the biggest mistake. The only thing that can make us likely to succeed is the grace of God and a strong relationship with Jesus.
Quote:
| Are the very things we try to give our children these days (ballet or sports, chess club, horsebackriding, scouts, etc) counter to our goals? Should we try to control and teach moderation when it comes to Facebook, gaming systems, unlimited texting, or should we leave it out of our lives? Music? Movies? Youth group or not? I guess this is what I mean when I think about simplicity several hundred years ago. Life was about hard work, growing food, hoping you had enough to make it through winter, sharing your small space with your family, gratefulness and helping your neighbor. And dreaming about heaven. |
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I think that we should teach our kids moderation. I don't think that we should aim to raise our children as if they lived in the 18th century because they don't. I always think about that passage of Scripture about being "in the world and not of the world". Our kids are in this world. This is the world, the time, where they are living. They need to learn to interact with the world, to sanctify it, to bring Christ into it.
I don't know how to say this without sounding as a heretic: I don't necessary want to teach my kids to dream about heaven. I think heaven is where God is. God is here so the kingdom of heaven is here. I want my kids to help the kingdom of heaven to be more manifest in the world today. I don't want them to be so focused in what is evil in the world that they miss the opportunity to see Christ in those around them and to see God's action in people's lives. I think that if their relationship with Jesus is strong here and now, the final Heaven will come. I don't want them to see heaven as a scape from this unworthy world but, as an encounter face to face with He, whom they have loved all their lives and finally get to meet.
I share your feelings and concerns.Sometimes I have to make a conscious and deliberate effort to choose hope.
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Natalia
http://pannuestrodecadadia.blogspot.com
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Bookswithtea
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I like what your analogy of a vitamin.  That seems fair to me.
Your thoughts reminded me instantly of the difference between an active order and a contemplative one. I used to wonder about contemplative orders in light of the call to be in the world and not of it. But after reading a few different things, I am struck by how they really do still live *in* the world (honestly, none of us can really escape...even the Amish!  ). Their vision is just a different one. Do you think its possible that some families are called to live a more contemplative vision while others are called to a more active one?
Honestly, I would say that my own bent (and dh's) is toward a more contemplative, quiet life. I have at least one child though, who is definitely action oriented when it comes to his own faith. So maybe its not even family to family, but individual to individual.
I don't think you sound like a heretic at all. I think there's room for both. For instance, avoiding all technology out of fear is one thing. But carefully avoiding some technology in order to create more quiet and opportunity for meditation is something else altogether. The difference is in the fear factor.
And yes, this is a really good way to put it...a conscious and deliberate effort to choose hope.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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JennGM wrote:
And then how about raising children during the English persecutions, and more recently in Nazi times and Communist countries? Hard to display your faith, live openly in the world....
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You know how it is always said that the Church grows both in strength and number during persecution? I can see that in Rome, in the Communist countries. I don't really know what to call the mess we are in, though. A combination of apathy and veiled hostility within the culture, maybe? Its not enough persecution for people to be forced to make a choice for Jesus or not (which purifies the Church). And at the same time, we don't have a culture that is mostly Christian, let alone Catholic like the best of the middle ages.
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Blessings,
~Books
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onemoretracy
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Natalia wrote:
I think that we should teach our kids moderation. I don't think that we should aim to raise our children as if they lived in the 18th century because they don't. I always think about that passage of Scripture about being "in the world and not of the world". Our kids are in this world. This is the world, the time, where they are living. They need to learn to interact with the world, to sanctify it, to bring Christ into it.
I don't know how to say this without sounding as a heretic: I don't necessary want to teach my kids to dream about heaven. I think heaven is where God is. God is here so the kingdom of heaven is here. I want my kids to help the kingdom of heaven to be more manifest in the world today. I don't want them to be so focused in what is evil in the world that they miss the opportunity to see Christ in those around them and to see God's action in people's lives. I think that if their relationship with Jesus is strong here and now, the final Heaven will come. I don't want them to see heaven as a scape from this unworthy world but, as an encounter face to face with He, whom they have loved all their lives and finally get to meet.
I share your feelings and concerns.Sometimes I have to make a conscious and deliberate effort to choose hope. |
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You very much spoke my heart here.
Just recently we heard a homily about how God placed us here, our children here, on earth at this time, deliberately.
I need to hear discussions and comments like this often because even before I became serious about my faith I tended to be romanticaly anachonistic!
Another thought I have is that the tendency to focus on the negative and general bad-ness around us in a way that leads me to become depressed is partially a relic of my time in a fundamentalist type of Protestant church. You know, the we are lowly, wormy type of stuff. Natalia's right-that kind of thinking can really pull me away from seeing Christ in others and in God's action in the world.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: then and now saints
