| Author | |
mom2mpr
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 16 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1550
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 5:55pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Dh, a convert, is warming up to this Catholic thing. He was just going through the motions before and is working so hard to make it his.
He was a Baptist who studied the bible there for 12 years. He loved it. He was on-fire. He WANTED to go to church and break open the word with the other kids.
He is trying to "get" mass, and working hard at it I must add.  He does go to Adoration--his idea--the Lord is working on him 
He cannot find that we must confess our sins to a priest in the bible. It MUST be there for him (Right now  ). I cannot find it, he cannot find it, and he see's everything as saying as long as you repent to the Lord and are truly sorry there, you are good. But he is struggling. He doesn't want to get to the gates and have Jesus tell him, he should have followed the rules of the Catholic church--but, some aren't in the bible. I cannot believe that can happen with a loving, merciful God, but....
The new "thing" is "why can't the Protestants and Catholics realize what they have in common?" There is so much more in common than not. Why are we always saying the other is wrong? I, personally, still harbor a lot of hurt from my times down south when I was uneducated in the faith, so I get defensive after talking with him for a while. My last line was, "hey, you all left US!!" Not nice, Anne. Oops.
So, any converts who can help me through the development of a smart guy who wants to do what is right. Yet, he takes it personally if anyone "picks" on the Baptists or Protestants.
I listened to Scott Hahn,and I thought his occasional comments about his "before" and "after" conversion might make him defensive--because he thinks we should all get along.
And we do, but he is seeing some non-charitable acts in his Men's group--which he enjoys. One guy is a teacher and was commenting how some of the kids (high school) sit at the same table during lunch and pray. Dh thought this was great and suggested he join them. The guy got flustered. A member working in the pro-life group was meeting with the pastor of the Baptist church in town, to see what they could do, together. The guys in the group commented, "Be careful, you are on a slippery slope."
I struggle because I don't know the bible. He doesn't want to meet with a priest because he feels they will just continue to push him to understand "because the church does it that way." He really uses the bible as his full authority.
I am working hard here. Looking for some ideas from people who have btdt both in my shoes and his.
Thanks ladies. It makes it hard to raise a pre-teen who is having his own issues with church to have dh doing the same thing and I feel clueless, but, I am trying.
Anne
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Anne, a lovely small resource type book is.. "Where is that in the Bible" By Patrick Madrid.
Matthew 18:18-19 where Jesus gives the Apostles the power of "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
You might also encourage him to see what the Bible says is the authority. Really everything else will eventually hinge on that.
And remember, the Church is not for the perfect, or it would be empty. The Church is full of sinners, if you judge any group's ideals by it's members, it would fall decidedly short.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
RamFam
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 21 2008
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 425
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:26pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
mom2mpr wrote:
| He really uses the bible as his full authority. |
|
|
As a convert from the Southern Baptist church, I can fully understand his and your walk. As far is this above comment, during my conversion I heard it said that Christ did not leave us with simply a Bible, just as the founding fathers of America did not leave us with only the Constitution. He left us the Apostles, especially Peter, to whom was given the keys. Just as in America we have the governmental body with the president at the head. Without this, the Constitution (and Bible) are left to free interpretation, which leads to... disaster. Can you imagine America without the governing bodies?
Regarding confession, maybe: John 20:21-23 (King James Version)
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
But I have to say that I only saw things after my eyes were open to them. I realize this when I talk to my Baptist family, who talk literally every word of the Bible, except the words, "This is my blood" and "This is my body." It's with the help of the Holy Spirit, I believe.
How does he feel about sitting in on adult confirmation classes, with no obligation to join the church? I had a lot of great discussions at these weekly meetings. And there was never any pressure to be confirmed at the end of the class (although I couldn't wait.)
__________________
Leah
RamFaminNOVA
Tom ^i^, Kyle (my Marine), Adeline '00, Wyatt '05, Isaac '07 Philip '08,Michael '10, and John Xavier Feb '13
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ekbell
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 22 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 747
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:32pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I've found that the Vatican's Intratext copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church a good place to start looking for scriptural references because the footnotes are linked to the quotations they reference.
Browsing through the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Vatican website I found the main text quoted is from Corinthians 5:18 "And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, "
I then googled the text of the verse and found this article which uses the Catechism scriptural references as the basis for explaining the sacrament.
Confession in Bible
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
jenk
Forum Pro
Joined: Jan 25 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I've found a lot of information at Scripture Catholic as well as Beginnig Catholic and Catholic Apologetics. There was also a reference chart I printed once that has quick answers from scripture to some of these questions. I can't find the link but I'll do a search and will post it if I can find it again.
This subject is close to my heart today... I had drama this morning with my very Southern Baptist mother who told me today that we should be in a church that "teaches the word of God"
 
After slightly ruffled feathers and my response that since the Bible is read in every mass, I think we are hearing the word of God, I decided that there is nothing I can say to change her bias against the Catholic Church and I need to change my reaction and love her anyway.
I will pray that your husband finds the answers he's looking for.
__________________
Jen
with 2 boys, 14 and 8, and a girl expected 1/09
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MarilynW
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 28 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4275
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:45pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Dear Anne
I recommend a few resources that I think are excellent
- A Philadelphia Catholic in King James Court - Martin de Porres Kennedy (fiction but excellent in explaining many of the questions you have mentioned
- Born Fundamentalist, born again Catholic - David Currie. There is also a great cd by David Currie that our church used to sell - if they still do it, I would be glad to send it to you
- Peter Kreeft - 7 Reasons to be Roman Catholic - another great cd which I can check to see if our church has
One of the verses in the bible which basically says that it is the Church and (not the Bible) which is our main source of authority is These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of t'ruth. I Timothy 3v15
I like what Peter Kreeft says when people mention the corruption of some of the Popes or clergy abuses etc - he says that these are actually proof that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church of Christ - that is has continued to survive through the centuries DESPITE all the weaknesses and sin of its leaders and members.
I do think that your husband may enjoy Rome Sweet Home by the Hahns - because it really does show their struggle with conversion - I don't think it would make him defensive as they do not criticize Baptists or Presbytarians or other Protestants.
__________________
Marilyn
Blessed with 6 gifts from God
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Michaela
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2052
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:46pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
mom2mpr wrote:
He cannot find that we must confess our sins to a priest in the bible. It MUST be there for him (Right now ). I cannot find it, he cannot find it, and he see's everything as saying as long as you repent to the Lord and are truly sorry there, you are good. |
|
|
My brother questioned me about confessing to a Priest....once.  As Leah posted John 20:21-23 is useful when you realize Jesus tells the Apostles this AFTER his crucifixion, before leaving them ascending to heaven. How do we do that? James 5:16 tell us to CONFESS OUR SINS TO ONE ANOTHER. Not just be sorry and it's all good.
Does he trust telling his deepest sins to anyone? The Priest is under the Seal of Confession and cannot tell anyone.
__________________
Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:47pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Anne, I want to clarify something first so there is no confusion with responses. I read this to mean that your husband has indeed already joined the Church but it wasn't something that he hadn't fully embraced and that is slowly happening now, but there are these issues that still keep him from that full acceptance. Is that correct?
Quote:
| He cannot find that we must confess our sins to a priest in the bible. |
|
|
Specifically for this issue, I was going to post the same verse of scripture Leah quoted, to indicate that it is clear that Jesus gave the apostles (and their successors) the power to forgive sins.
It seems that if Jesus intended them to forgive or retains sins, that those sins would have to be confessed to them, doesn't it?
I found this Catholic apologetics explanation that walks through the various scripture passages tied to this topic to be very helpful as a way to understand what Jesus was intending.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
jenk
Forum Pro
Joined: Jan 25 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:51pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Here it is. It's under The Bible Cheat Sheet. I knew I'd bookmarked
__________________
Jen
with 2 boys, 14 and 8, and a girl expected 1/09
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 6:59pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I know you said that you were afraid that Scott Hahn would make him defensive, but he has a series of books called Catholic for a Reason which is a collection of essays by various Catholic writers that take different Catholic themes/doctrines/questions and relate them directly to scripture. I have the first volume which does not specifically address confession. However, I'm guessing one of the later volumes does. I relied heavily on this book when I was first converting to see Catholic doctrine in scripture.
I do wonder if the thing to search for in scripture is not confession specifically (which, others have pointed to those verses), but rather, you can find the passages that indicate there are teachings and authority outside of scripture.
In scripture, Paul repeatedly refers in his letters to ask the people to remember the things he taught them while there. This indicates that much of the instruction to the early church was given and passed down orally, not exclusively in the letters he wrote.
Also, you might try looking at the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I found it fascinating to read the writings of saints and popes who were actually able to hear the teaching of the Apostle John. To read their interpretation of doctrine and scripture--and the Bible as we know it wasn't compiled! As someone mentioned above, the authority of scripture comes from the Church, not vice-versa.
While not *scripture* per se, I found it very compelling to learn what the earliest recorded Christians believed. To me, this indicated that the Catholic interpretation of scripture and doctrines were correct. They were so "close" to the original apostles (and Christ himself!) historically and generationally.
So after writing all that, I found this site which is devoted to proving Catholic teaching in scripture. Scripture Catholic/confession THis link is specifically to the entry on confession which also happens to include many quotes from the Early Church Fathers that I referenced above! I hope this helps you!
ETA: this link is the one Jen posted above, lol.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 7:21pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Also,I just wanted to add that you might look into sources for the history of confession in the Church. It did not always look like it does today. In the Early Church, it involved a public confession to the assembly and a public penance!
One aspect of confession that is sometimes forgotten or misunderstood by Protestants (and many Catholics too) is that confession is communal. When we sin, it isn't just our personal salvation that is at risk, it has effects on the entire Body of Christ. Remember how scripture speaks of the hurt toe affecting the entire body? The priest acts as a representative of the entire community in confession. So, in addition to its being necessary for the individual, it is also an act of reparation to our fellow Christians, an apology of sorts for hurting the Church.
I'm not exactly sure about the entire progression down through the ages to the way it presently looks (I heard a talk on it during Lent, lol, but apparently I didn't retain much), but confession has had many different forms, and it might help your husband to see how it has changed since its earlier forms are going to look a bit closer to the image given in scripture and by the Early Church Fathers.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
RamFam
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 21 2008
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 425
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 8:46pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I just had another thought regarding authority of the Church and the Bible: Most of the New Testament is letters written by the Apostles, much like our modern day encyclicals. Were they Divinely inspired? At what point did that Divine inspiration cease?
__________________
Leah
RamFaminNOVA
Tom ^i^, Kyle (my Marine), Adeline '00, Wyatt '05, Isaac '07 Philip '08,Michael '10, and John Xavier Feb '13
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Barbara C.
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 882
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 9:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Well, one thing to which others alluded is that your husband is still stuck in a "sola scriptura mode". He needs to understand the role of Sacred Oral Tradition passed down and preserved through the Church, and how it does not contradict written scripture. The sola scriptura mindset assumes that anything not explicitly mentioned in the Bible must be man-made and therefore erroneous, even though most Catholic beliefs are alluded to in the Bible or are the logical extension of basic faith doctrines (i.e. the Immaculate Conception).
For what it's worth, but I recently wrote a blog post about the power of the sacrament of Reconciliation that touches on a few of the practical reasons behind it. It was written in response to a question from someone who is probably agnostic or atheist.
As for why Catholics and Protestants can't get along....well...., sometimes it's a matter of working from two completely different paradigms. Sometimes Catholics and Protestants really don't speak the same language, describing the same concept using different terminology. Sometimes it goes back to sola scriptura vs. Sacred Oral Tradition.
I think it is very hard for one other reason. Many Protestants are given bad information about what Catholics believe, and most of this information is very derogatory. Secondly, there are so many variations of Protestantism that it is hard to pinpoint similarities and differences without interrogating the other individual. Protestants tend to think Catholics are smug and arrogant (which we can be), and Catholics think Protestants are judgmental and twisting scripture to fit their own personal beliefs (which is sometimes true too).
__________________
Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
Box of Chocolates
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Marcia
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 20 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 437
|
| Posted: Dec 03 2009 at 7:34am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Born Fundamentalist, born again Catholic - David Currie
is my vote. I came from a Protestant upbringing (read anti-Catholic). Until I decided to accept the Magisterium and all that it taught, I couldn't jump in fully. My struggles with Mary and other teachings grew on me when I was able to just CHOOSE to believe. There is faith and then there is will. :)
__________________
Marcia
Mom to six and wife to one
Homeschooling 10th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, PreK and a toddler in tow.
I wonder why
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
|
| Posted: Dec 03 2009 at 7:52am | IP Logged
|
|
|
***Regarding confession, maybe: John 20:21-23 (King James Version)
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.***
I just wanted to add that this was the scripture that convinced me as an evangelical. I couldn't believe I had never heard/seen it before, especially when it was pointed out to me that the only other time God breathed on anyone was Adam and Eve. Mostly though, it is prayer and time that helps the most. Dh and I are 8 years Catholic and we have certain areas that we don't fully understand and struggle with. Its a journey, not an arrival. 
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mom2mpr
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 16 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1550
|
| Posted: Dec 03 2009 at 9:52pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thank you all for the great info and resources.
To respond to someone's query, Dh went through RCIA before we were married and was confirmed.
I think some things here will help. Along with some patience and a lot of prayer.
I did talk to a priest today about this, with my confession, and he told me I need to deal with this through the tradition and history of the church. We didn't have a lot of time so he just pointed me in a direction. He gave the me the impression that it really doesn't say that the bible says point blank you need to confess to a priest. Which is what dh is looking for.
So, I am going to do my homework.
Oh, and maybe look through the schoolwork my kids did/or didn't do while I was at confession
Anne
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 24 2009
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1520
|
| Posted: Dec 03 2009 at 11:22pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am a convert from Southern Baptist and my parents are still active in their church and they do follow Solo Scriptura so there is no way I can "convince" them of anything the Catholic church says. If you have a Catholic radio station in your area and he's willing to listen to that or watch EWTN, it might do wonders for his knowledge about the church and church traditions. I've been listening about 2-3 yrs and I can't believe how much I've learned just being in the car carting kids here and there. In fact, I think it was yesterday that one of the host's said "So, where in the Bible does it say to follow the Bible only?" After all, the Bible was written 400-500 years AFTER Jesus' life. What did all those early Christians do? Most of them prob. couldn't read even if there was a Bible.
Why can't we all get along? Hmmm...pride? My kids ask why Grandma and Papa don't go to our church and I do remind them about the similarities but I also say how much their grandparents are MISSING by not having the FULLNESS of the Christian faith. Soo, I don't lead them to believe that the grandparents are wrong but just that it's kind of sad that they're missing so much of the beauty and gifts that the Catholic church offers.
__________________
Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
RA's Mom
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 03 2009
Location: Turkmenistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 43
|
| Posted: Dec 04 2009 at 7:36am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Could you and your husband (and maybe your son) find a way to study the Bible together? There are Catholic Bible courses but you should also consider Lectio Divina – praying, reading and talking without trying to find anything except where the Holy Spirit wants to lead you.
I was baptized as an adult. I was baptized into the Catholic Church but I often feel like I have that experience in common with a lot of protestants with whom I differ on a lot religious issues. And what reconciliation is for me is a chance to return to the state of grace I was in the moment that water hit my head. Sometimes, often maybe, examination of conscience and confession is an exercise in obligation for me but I go through the motions because sometimes God gives me insight into a sin or failing that knocks me to my knees and the only way I can literally hear that it is forgiven, wiped clean, is to go humble myself before a priest.
And reconciliation is a sacrament – Christ is present there. The Church just makes the presence tangible. The priest speaks on Christ's behalf – just as he does when reading the Gospel or pronouncing a marriage. That may or may not help your husband but if it might go read about the good thief. No one else admits his sins so plainly or witnesses Christ dying for those sins so intimately and no one else receives the news that he is forgiven and ready to enter heaven so directly. Still the thief's humility and his reward is what we're trying to achieve.
Prayers for peace.
Karen
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 24 2009
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1520
|
| Posted: Dec 04 2009 at 9:38am | IP Logged
|
|
|
RA's Mom wrote:
Sometimes, often maybe, examination of conscience and confession is an exercise in obligation for me but I go through the motions because sometimes God gives me insight into a sin or failing that knocks me to my knees and the only way I can literally hear that it is forgiven, wiped clean, is to go humble myself before a priest.
And reconciliation is a sacrament – Christ is present there. The Church just makes the presence tangible. The priest speaks on Christ's behalf – just as he does when reading the Gospel or pronouncing a marriage.
|
|
|
What Karen just wrote above is a beautiful example of what confession has been for me too. As a convert, I never felt as humbled or moved or truly sorry for my sins and truly sought a change of heart until I had to sit in church before confession and truly examine my heart and then speak them aloud to the priest. The comfort of the priest's words are immeasurable. So, yes, I believe God does forgive our sins when we go "directly" to him as the Protestant's do (and as I do as well) but again, to me, the beauty of the Catholic church isn't either/or...it's BOTH. The sacrament of confession before a priest is a gift not to be missed.
__________________
Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mom2mpr
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 16 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1550
|
| Posted: Dec 04 2009 at 10:12am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thank you for sharing your experiences, Karen and Kathryn.
As a cradle Catholic, I don't feel right, without getting my sins off my heart. I can go in prayer, but verbalizing my sins and the comforting words from the priest, even though they are the same time after time, really heal me.
Studying the bible together would be nice. I might try that. I am so glad that you all are here to help me.
Thanks,
Anne
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Why can't we all be friends?
