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Bookswithtea
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I vaguely remember reading a post here once where someone said that its not liturgically correct for girls serving at the altar to wear the garb (forgive me, I don't know the right names) that is basically a long black undergarment with a short white surplice type thing over it? Does anyone know if this is true? I was at a parish tonight for mass where both boys and girls were wearing this at the altar. I'd like to know if there are any rules regarding this, and don't have a clue where to begin. Please help?
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Tami
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Books, the document "Sing to the Lord" states that cassock and surplice (the pieces you're talking about) are clerical attire. STTL is making a distinction so that musicians in the church do not wear them.
My understanding is that, historically, the vestment has always been reserved to males (even before it was associated with the clerical state).
Prior to Vatican II, since all altar servers were male, they did wear them.
Apparently there is also a reference to be found in Mediator Dei, by Pius XII, but I can't seem to find it.
Fr.Z discussed it here. He is very traditionally-oriented. He had some strong things to say.
I remember seeing a woman dressed this way on the altar at a basilica a few years back. I almost fell off my pew!
ETA: Our church is working through this right now, as the new DRE is working to make the liturgical celebration more traditional/formal, and wants the boys in cassock and surplice, but we have a large # of girls interested in altar serving.
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When we are crushed like grapes, we cannot think of the wine we will become. (Nouwen)
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Bookswithtea
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Tami wrote:
My understanding is that, historically, the vestment has always been reserved to males (even before it was associated with the clerical state).
Prior to Vatican II, since all altar servers were male, they did wear them.
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But there is no historic tradition to follow, since the rules for female servers are so new. So is it shocking just because we associate it with menswear in our minds, or is it shocking because its actually a liturgical violation? I don't have an agenda here, other than this parish has a lot of good things going on, and if its not actually an abuse, it would help me personally to not be so distracted by it. Does that sound lame? 
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Tami
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I think it's shocking in the way that the presence of females on the altar is 'shocking'. Is it a liturgical violation? I don't have the authority to say that - and obviously there are acceptable practices going on. But my understanding is that the role of women (and the laity in general) in what were previously minor order (ordained) roles (lector, acolyte) is described as "permitted" but not "preferred." Could these lean toward liturgical violations? In the words of Sarah Palin, "You betcha!" And they have. I've seen it. 
And there is the continued blurring of roles - male and female, clerical and lay.
Pope Benedict recently commented on this, that the shortage of priests should not result in more active roles by lay people - in taking on clerical roles. It was in his ad limina visit with the Brazilian bishops.
Here's a link here There's a link at the bottom to commentary by Fr. Z, again.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I don't have an agenda here, other than this parish has a lot of good things going on, and if its not actually an abuse, it would help me personally to not be so distracted by it. Does that sound lame? |
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No, it doesn't sound lame at all! I understand what you're saying, and I think we all take notice when a good parish seems to have a 'hiccup' (at least that's my take on what's happening there). Personally, I think your distraction is well-founded, because you are well-grounded. Didn't mean the rhyme there!  
Now I'll bet that this discussion will take off when someone like JennGM jumps in, with her wealth of knowledge. And some of the other ladeies from the diocese of Arlington as well (I remember it coming up as a topic here when the bishop permitted girls to serve as altar servers there, just a few years ago). I don't always have the right phrasings or references. I tend to rely on my Catholic instinct, then discover the exactness of the Church's teaching after-the-fact.
But as to the question of vestments? Personally, I go with the idea that cassock and surplice were always worn by males, then in the church reserved to the clerical state. That's enough for me to say (again, imo) they are inappropriate for female altar servers - must be the menswear aspect of it that bothers me.
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Tami
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Tami
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Books, here's the link to the thread from a few years ago, about the changes in the Arlington diocese. There were comments there about suitable vestments. Dealing with female altar servers
I knew I remembered reading about cassocks there.....
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Tami
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Bookswithtea
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I read through that thread the other day, too. That's where I remembered hearing about the confusion over cassocks.
Well, I am kind of hoping Jenn and others will chime in, too. Inappropriate is one thing, but a liturgical abuse is another thing altogether, kwim? I even ran an internet search but nothing helpful came up.
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Tami
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I read through that thread the other day, too. That's where I remembered hearing about the confusion over cassocks.
Well, I am kind of hoping Jenn and others will chime in, too. Inappropriate is one thing, but a liturgical abuse is another thing altogether, kwim? I even ran an internet search but nothing helpful came up. |
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Yes, I completely understand. My internet search did not come up with anything decisive, either.
Ok, waiting with you.... 
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Tami
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sewcrazy
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I do not know liturgical rules as well as I should and can't quote anything specific. But we have a very conservative, traditional parish nears us and I tend to use them as my barometer on what is "right".
A few years ago their pastor wanted to return to more traditional garb for the altar servers, but stated it wasn't "appropriate" for girls to wear the vestments. His solution was to divide the altar duties of boys and girls and the garb. Boys assist on the altar, and sit to the right of the priest. Boys wear the traditional garb. Girls are candle bearers and bell ringers. They sit to the left of the altar, off the dias. The girls wear what almost looks like a postulates robe. It is a long white garment with a short white cape.
I am not sure if this is the "right way" but it is an elegant solution to this difficult issue.
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MaryM
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From Peter Elliott, Liturgical Question Box, Ignatius Press, 1998, page 61.
"... While the alb may seem visually appropriate for a female server, in my opinion, the cassock and surplice should never be worn by a girl or a woman. The cassock and surplice is choir dress for male clerics, extended by custom to young male servers."
Bookswithtea wrote:
| Inappropriate is one thing, but a liturgical abuse is another thing altogether, kwim? I even ran an internet search but nothing helpful came up. |
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Problem is current guidelines are not specific enough to allow or disallow cassock and surplice by gender:
GIRM 339.
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| In the dioceses of the United States of America, acolytes, altar servers, lectors, and otherlay ministers may wear the alb or other suitable vesture or other appropriate and dignified clothing. |
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And I did some searching over at Catholic Answers forums where this topic has come up quite a few times. There does not appear to be authoritative documentation such as you are asking for on this matter.
But I did found this comment there helpful in that regard to look at why sometimes there isn't a "rule" for something would seem to be common sense.
Quote:
What are the relevant texts for cassock and surplice for males only? I might need that info soon to defend this norm.
That's like asking for documentation on a nun's habit being female only garb.
Cassocks are what clerics where, and clerics are, by definition, guys.
In much the same way, habits are what nuns wear, and nuns are, by defintion, female. |
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I don't have an agenda here, other than this parish has a lot of good things going on, and if its not actually an abuse, it would help me personally to not be so distracted by it. Does that sound lame? |
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For what it's worth my parents live in a small, rural parish that is very orthodox in most respects. The altar servers though, whether male or female, currently wear cassock and surplice. Since I am visiting there now, my mom and I were just discussing it and my mother knows this is not "appropriate." But it isn't something that she plans to address at the parish at the present time for various reasons so tries to not let it distract her. Don't know it that helps.
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Bookswithtea
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Thank you, Mary. This helps a lot. It sounds like the question comes up a lot, but there are no really good answers. Sigh...This is one of those times when I wish things were more uniform than they are right now. I guess it'll happen in time.
LeeAnn, that is a very cool solution that pastor came up with. 
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Tami
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Mary, thank you. This does seem to be an area which lacks real guidelines. Yet instinct kicks in, as with your mother's reaction, and we're left with a sense that something just not right here.
And LeeAnn, our DRE is looking for ways to differentiate the girls from the boys in dress - I will tell him about your parish, and the different duties as well. The pastor has already said that he doesn't want altar servers wearing black cassocks (too clerical) so we will probably be looking at another color.
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Bookswithtea
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Tami wrote:
| Yet instinct kicks in, as with your mother's reaction, and we're left with a sense that something just not right here. |
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 I feel the same. I went to Catholic Answers to see if I could read more of what Mary pulled up. There was just a slew of questions about liturgical abuses, and altar girls look to be a very hot topic over there, as well.
Its so frustrating, the position we are all in right now in the US. On the one hand, most dioceses seem to have a magnet church that is more traditionally minded, where parishioners don't have to worry about liturgical variations. But the drive to those parishes can be tremendous, and it can be very difficult to get involved, especially when you live where the weather is bad in winter and you usually have babies/toddlers in tow. The alternative is to be involved in a more local parish, where its possible to actually model parish involvement to your children, but then you just might have to deal with other stuff that is distracting (like girl altar servers wearing robes traditionally meant for boys). Feels very catch-22, to me.
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Tami
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I feel the same. I went to Catholic Answers to see if I could read more of what Mary pulled up. There was just a slew of questions about liturgical abuses, and altar girls look to be a very hot topic over there, as well.
Its so frustrating, the position we are all in right now in the US. On the one hand, most dioceses seem to have a magnet church that is more traditionally minded, where parishioners don't have to worry about liturgical variations. But the drive to those parishes can be tremendous, and it can be very difficult to get involved, especially when you live where the weather is bad in winter and you usually have babies/toddlers in tow. The alternative is to be involved in a more local parish, where its possible to actually model parish involvement to your children, but then you just might have to deal with other stuff that is distracting (like girl altar servers wearing robes traditionally meant for boys). Feels very catch-22, to me. |
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Yeah, girl altar servers are a real hot-button issue!
Re: the frustration, I thoroughly agree! It does seem like the more traditional parishes are harder to reach. This was certainly the case for us back east. And you also lose the aspect of worshipping with your neighbors.
Here, we only have one church, so working to help it be traditional is the focus. And I have hated over the years having to explain to my children that practices and teachings in the parish are wrong sometimes - it's so confusing for them to digest (and for me to explain charitably ), esp. because at the same time we work to instill in them a deep respect for authority. It's a real balancing act.
Sigh.
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Bookswithtea
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I try to not address the things that might be wrong unless its really obvious or appallingly wrong, because I don't want to quench or discourage their respect for Holy Mother Church. I mean, the problem really isn't with the Church, per se. Its just with American churches as they shift back toward the right after the 70's. But little kids don't easily understand the difference. And I have tried to instill in them the idea that if you don't have something nice to say, its better to just not say anything at all, kwim??? I have talked about it with my teen though. He was the only child who also noticed the cassock on the girl, but he didn't bring it up to me until I mentioned it to him.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Qu: about altar serving
