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Sarah M
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I'm struggling with teaching my kids about the saints. It seems like every book I find contains gruesome descriptions of martyrdom. My children are pretty sensitive, and I really would rather they not hear that.
I used to just edit the stories, but now my 7yo reads fluently. I cringed the other day when she was reading her Little Flowers book, "'Agnes was beheaded because she loved God'..... Mom, what does 'beheaded' mean?" 
Have any of you found some gentle introductions to the saints for little ones?
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LucyP
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Well, I usually edit as I read, but to be honest, now that DS is 5, I will say that so and so was beheaded or whatever. He asks what it means, and we talk about how it is sad to be killed but happy to go straight to Jesus. Lots of accounts of saints do talk about how just before they died they were able to see Jesus or Mary - we emphasise that. As he is young we sometimes talk about how hard it is to walk home in the dark, and cold and wet, but then we come home and everything is wonderful and compare it to that.
We watched song of Bernadette the other day and he phoned his Nana and was telling her how nice it is for B to die, because she goes to Jesus being cuddled by Mary. We watched Man for All Seasons, and he asked to watch to the end, and while he jumped when he saw the axe, he again said how happy for St Thoms More to be straight away to Jesus. That said, yesterday we read about St Lawrence and I just ended it by saying St Lawrence was killed and at once he was with Jesus and his friend Pope Sixtus because a hot gridiron is just not something I'm ready to describe!
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JennGM
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Sarah, I was very apprehensive introducing the "gruesome" to my son, but I think I was being overprotective. I'm not giving enough credit to the power of grace that he receives at Baptism to comprehend the deep and the beautiful.
Becoming a saint means embracing the cross. It's a hard reality. We now live in a white martrdom, not necessarily shedding blood, but the sacrifice needs to be evident. It's a message that a child, even young, can see. If Jesus gave up his life, and we see a saint dying for love of Christ and the Church, the connection happens. This is what we have to do...love Christ to the utmost.
Even the liturgical year presents the perfect example. We celebrate the birth of Christ, a cute, helpless Infant, and then the next day we are jolted into the feast of St. Stephen, the first martyr. A few days later we celebrate the feast of the Holy Innocents. Blood shed for Christ, right during the Octave of Christmas.
My son (age 5) had questions. At first I thought he was dwelling too much on the martyrs. He'd thumb through the books and try to find all the martyrs, and show them to Daddy and talk about it. He even played out some of the deaths. My dh was asked to execute/behead him. Dh showed some hesitancy as my son was kneeling down, saying maybe this wasn't a good idea. My son's head popped up and he said "Daddy, these martyrs suffered!"
I follow my son's lead. Sometimes he gets sad looking at Jesus Crucified and wants to "hide" the pictures, I do it. I don't dwell on death, but I really don't want him to think the being a Christian is all roses and no thorns. The cross is a large part of who we are.
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JodieLyn
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Sarah have you looked at "Once Upon a Time Saints"?
It does say they were killed.. for instance for St.Barbara is says he "unsheathed his sword and killed her on the spot" but there's no actual description of the killing. or St. Clement "he ordered the soldiers to tie an anchor around Clement and toss him into the seas, so no one would ever find him. His followers went searching for him and prayed God to direct them. As they stood on the shore, the sea went back three miles until Clement's body was found, in a marble shrine which the angles had built fro him at the bottom of the sea." St. Dorothy talks of Christian's being killed.. but no other details.
But it's not every story either those are the only 3 that are martyrs in teh book the rest.. Alice, Ambrose, Anne, Barnaby, Benedict of San Fredello,Christopher, Comgall, David of Wales, Edward the Confessor, Elizabeth of Portugal, Felix, Genevieve, Hubert aren't killed though some have a bit of story about after they died or the day they died.
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Maria Therese
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Jennifer: Beautifully written. Thank you for that.
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Cay Gibson
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I just lost a half-written post. Not sure how but it's gone now and I'm too tired to try to reinvent it. 
Sarah M wrote:
| I used to just edit the stories, but now my 7yo reads fluently. |
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Guess I should be glad my 7 yr old refuses to read anything beyond Dr. Seuss, huh? 
Sarah M wrote:
I cringed the other day when she was reading her Little Flowers book, "'Agnes was beheaded because she loved God'..... Mom, what does 'beheaded' mean?"
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When is the book dated? Small children are already very fearful of the "death" issue. Why do you think Catholic saint books always strive to glorify this type of dying. Of course, I know why and, while I don't believe in laminating the death of martyrs, I think it's a little over the top to mention the brutality of it.
This is what we have done with my two younger girls:
*Made use of Charlotte's wonderful coloring pages as well as Sean Fitzpatrick' Fenestrae Fidei.
*I find a brief, interesting bio online and read it with them.
*We use any worthy picture books we get our hands on.
Basiclly, while they are young we focus more on where the saint lived, their patroness/cause, how they brought Christ's love to the world, and the symbols associated with them.
My 5th grader and 9th grader use older chapter books but this simple exposure works when they are younger.
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folklaur
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| Of course, I know why and, while I don't believe in laminating the death of martyrs, I think it's a little over the top to mention the brutality of it. |
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Oh, thank you for saying that.
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Sarah M
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Thank you! This has been bothering me for quite a while, and I really appreciate what you all have to say.
Jodielyn wrote:
| Sarah have you looked at "Once Upon a Time Saints"? |
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That sounds great. I do want my children to fall in the love with the saints and realize that the Saints had difficult lives- and that some even died because of their faith. But small children live in picture images, and I just don't those picture images to be of beheadings, quarterings, or the like! So this books sounds like a good one. I think I actually saw it at my local Catholic bookstore last time I was there- I'm going to go back and flip through it.
Cay Gibson wrote:
| Guess I should be glad my 7 yr old refuses to read anything beyond Dr. Seuss, huh? |
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My daughter went from stilted-one-syllable reading to fluency overnight (w/o any help from me, btw), and I thought it was all hunky dory until I realized I need to be more careful leaving things about- like personal letters and my journal and, apparently, books about the saints!
2008. I went back to look at it and it actually reads, "Finally, Agnes was sentenced to be beheaded," which is perhaps a little better than my original quote, but still...
Thanks for your ideas, Cay. I think we are going to step-up our use of Catholic Mosaic. All your book selections depict the saints in such lovely ways.
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SuzanneG
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I think she's talking about Saints and Friendly Beasts.
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JodieLyn
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link to Neuman Press corrected
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JennGM
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Generally I've found if the collection of saints is for everyday, there will be more martyrs and more details. If you find collections geared more for children, with selective saints, there is less graphic detail.
I'm a huge fan of Joan Windham. She wrote many books on the lives of the saints. She was British, so the stories have an English flavor. But I grew up on these and just devoured them, even not understanding some of the English references.
What has been most recently in print is "Sixty Saints for Boys" and "Sixty Saints for Girls". In the 1970s there was a 3 volume compilation entitled "Story Library of the Saints". She had slimmer volumes like "Six O'Clock Saints" and "More Six O'Clock Saints". Search Bookfinder to find a wide range of choices.
Not all her stories avoid descriptions of the martyrdom. I was checking my Volume 1 and Agnes and Agatha just have mention of "being martyred". But in the St. Barbara below is beheaded.
So to give a taste, here are two stories:
St. Wenceslas
St. Barbara
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JennGM
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I just looked at my shelves and have two other resources.
Jodie mentioned Once Upon a Time Saints and More Once Upon a Time Saints by Ethel Marbach Pochocki. I love her works, and if you can find her out-of-print stories, they are just lovely. She has a collection Saints of the Seasons for Children. This book is a collection of her 4 books, age "written for youngsters in kindergarten through grade six":
Saints at Harvest-Time: Autumn,
Saints-in-Waiting: Advent/Christmastide
Saints Budding Everywhere: Winter/Spring/Summer
Saints for the Journey: Lent/Easter
So if you can't find a copy reasonably priced of the collection, look for the single books. Search for either under Ethel Marbach or Pochocki. She also had an earlier and different version of "Once Upon a Time Saints" and "More Once Upon a Time Saints".
And I will recommend an in-print book. The Children's Book of Saints by Louis M. Savary, S.T.D., Regina Press.
Have you looked at Amy Welborn's Loyola Kids Book of Saints and Loyola Kids Book of Heroes? How does that hold up in descriptions of deaths?
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CrunchyMom
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Cay Gibson wrote:
When is the book dated? Small children are already very fearful of the "death" issue. Why do you think Catholic saint books always strive to glorify this type of dying. Of course, I know why and, while I don't believe in laminating the death of martyrs, I think it's a little over the top to mention the brutality of it.
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I'm not sure I understand how the original quote was over the top. Just this month we went to daily mass and the gospel was about the beheading of John the Baptist. John the Baptist is ds's favorite--so he was listening with rapt attention. Afterward, we simply explained what happen, basically like that (they killed him by cutting off his head because he loved Jesus and they hated Jesus).
I'm sure that much of this is pretty subjective according to an individual child's sensitivities. My parents had to put away Little Red Riding Hood because it gave me nightmares. Sometimes I think that there is little rhyme or reason to what upsets a child (no nightmares about John the Baptist but considerable worries about alligators in our hallway at night--which might actually make sense in the Gibson home ).
So, given that, I'm not questioning anyone's instinct about this as pertaining to their child, but while I strive to protect my child's innocence, it doesn't follow for me that something is inappropriate simply because it "upsets" them. We should be upset when we read about martyrs, right? That's an ordered response.
Is it also possible that talking about the death matter of factly (and how brave martyrs are) would help a child deal with the fear of death. My guess is that these authors aren't ignorant of the fears of small children but see what they consider gentle statement of the facts as helping the child understand death better and temper that fear (I don't think any of us get over the fear of death completely!).
Anyway, I agree with your statement, Cay, just not necessarily as applied to the original sentence. What do you think would be an appropriate sentence for a seven year old that doesn't laminate the death of martyrs?
And Sarah, please don't think I'm being judgmental of your choice to not want to talk about those things with your children in the same terms I do. I'm more addressing the fact that it seems *most* children's books about martyrs contain these sorts of statements. When I first read the topic, my thoughts went to how I dealt with it recently--which was, from my perspective, gentle and with sensitivity. To find that almost the exact phrase I used is the phrase in question is surprising and a perspective I hadn't considered.
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Matilda
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We had the Amy Welborn books and while I don't remember what they had to say as far as the descriptions of death, I did think that they were a bit too worldly for my younger children who were more sensitive but yet voracious readers (just like yours, Sarah, so you are not alone). The story of Venerable Matt Talbot discussed drunkenness and even drug use directly in conversation with the reader (if I remember correctly). It seemed as though it was aimed at public school kids or even private school kids who quite possibly had been confronted with these issues but who's religious education came from CCD instruction. I think they could be wonderful supplements for families in that situation but thought them a bit too worldly for my young kids.
I second the Once Upon a Time Saints and admit that until my kids were older, we would preview most saint's biographies for graphic details. Sometimes it isn't only in the way they were martyred, but the sinfulness of the people responsible for it.
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Sarah M
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I'm sure that much of this is pretty subjective according to an individual child's sensitivities.
So, given that, I'm not questioning anyone's instinct about this as pertaining to their child, but while I strive to protect my child's innocence, it doesn't follow for me that something is inappropriate simply because it "upsets" them. We should be upset when we read about martyrs, right? That's an ordered response.
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Good point- it is an ordered response. So for me, or for an older child (and I don't know what that age would be, maybe 9?) I think being upset when reading about the martyrs is wholly appropriate. I come from the mindframe that young children should be surrounded by what is *good* (like Donnalynn said) and safe, and that the contrast between evil/good may be safer from the distance of fairytale for these young, sensitive souls. For me, it comes down to "the right information at the right time." I don't tell my young children about the Holocaust. I don't think that's age approriate. But when they're older, they'll learn about it, and it will upset them- that's an ordered response.
The one child I am most concerned about is my 5yo- who has been known to weep when Winnie the Pooh gets stuck in the honey tree  - she is my melancholic child, and is extraordinarily sensitive- she has a very intense view of justice and goodness. She's also the child that deals very matter of factly with death. She used to go around squishing ants in the backyard to send them "straight to Jesus." Because she lives so entirely in picture images, disturbing pictures (the ones on paper or the ones she creates in her mind) really bother her. I have no problem telling her that saints died because of their faith- I have a huge problem with telling her that their heads were chopped off.
Crunchymom, I appreciate your view- thanks for chiming in - just sharing my own hesitancies, that's all.
Thanks, Jennifer, for the links. I'll check them out!
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JennGM
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Maria, thank you.
Interesting, Lindsay. And that makes me think am I projecting my fear of death in trying to protect him from all mention of it? The little child has such great depth of understanding -- I forget to allow him to ponder great mysteries and teach me.
Balance and sensitivity is how I approach, and it does depend on the nature of the child. My son was extremely sensitive around 3 and 4. We were so slow to introduce certain movies or books. But then he had some awakening. He would find pictures of saints and ask questions. But it's not a gruesome fest, because he still has sensitivites. So many times when he asks, were they a martyr? Yes, they died for love of Christ and went straight to heaven to be with Jesus.
We should be upset when reading about martyrs, but it is also a *good*. The act of martyrdom isn't evil, it's the result of evil, but it's good triumping over evil. It's just that the Gospel is opposite of the world's view, a stumbling block. Christ's death is triumphant, but not seen in the world's eyes. To be a martyr means to go straight to heaven, the goal of our life here.
To read stories of children desiring to be martyrs (Teresa of Avila one that comes to mind) makes me think I could be overprotective. Am I inspiring my child enough to not think of this world but the next?
If saints' lives are too watered down they just become "stories". They are just natural stories about people with animals. There isn't a display of grace or of Faith. It becomes just a "natural" story.
And Charlotte, thanks for that reminder. I don't know how many times those books have gone in and out of my shopping cart. 
Just ramblings....
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sewcrazy
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Our favorite saint books are Saints for young readers My dd has used these books for narration for the last 3 years. She is now 9, and everyday now writes about why this person is a saint, and what she needs to apply from this saint to her life.
The stories are very gentle, but not sugar-coated. I do believe that young children need to now that people have sacrificed everything - including their lives -
for Christ, they don't need the details until they are ready for them.
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Kristin
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Very interested in this thread and can relate to the difficulties of handling these issues with children.
How lovely to raise children through their early years with a sense that the world is ALL goodness! Reading of this makes me wonder if I have not done enough to protect our children, but have instead have tried to actively, but temperately, introduce them to the reality of good and evil (see below). In Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, for example, the focus for the 3-6 child is God's goodness and love; this is all important for them.
Also, I am intrigued by the idea of attempting to maintain a high level of sensitivity in young children. I was very sensitive as a child (for various reasons, temperament being one). It did allow me to have a very sensitive conscience, but it in many other ways it was almost crippling. I had (and still struggle with) difficulty accepting the harsh realities of life, to the point of extreme fear (death) and preoccupation (worry, etc.)
At first I wanted to protect the children from the reality of death, but soon came to realize that is impossible - of course! Our approach has been to introduce the children to the basic reality of the battle between good and evil, which is a big part of our worldview. In our effort to inspire in our children a deep love for God and a desire for heaven, we have been matter-of-fact about death and the evil one's desire to lead us away from God. They have been introduced to the notion of a fallen world; nothing is perfect here. This life is transitory. Heaven is where we will know the fullness of all things good and holy.
And they see this in their lives in so many ways, from daily sufferings to the occasional tragedy of which they might hear (natural disasters, airplane crashes, etc.) For right or for wrong, we did not completely protect them from knowledge about the tragic murder of a 2-year-old acquaintance. It was placed in context of the world view: good versus evil. We all have choices, the evil one wants us to make sad choices. What are the consequences of sad choices, etc.?
They know whose "team" we're on, so to speak. I have tried to build up a resistance in them to the evil one, He is the only one we're allowed to say we hate.  Anything bad that happens ultimately is tied back to him, it gives them a way of understanding some of the sad and baffling things that happen in life. On the other hand, we daily rejoice in all things good and wonderful. The focus is not on the bad, but the good. We praise God for His goodness, and all things good are related back to Him. They know God's love and beauty surround us, and God's desire for us is to be with Him in heaven! 
As a final note, I will say that while all of this seemed to be just right for our son, looking back it would have been better to waited while before introducing our daughter to this (she just turned 4, ds is 5.5yo). She is more sensitive in nature, plus she is younger of course. But being the younger sibling of our son, she got to tag along. Our son is like JennGM's son, he seems to thrive on the notion of the battle of good and evil (he LOVES St. Michael). He seems to be comfortable with some of the gruesome stories in found in our faith (such as some of the Old Testament stories and saints). Also, I do want to be sure to say that we have been very careful and protective in terms of exposure to violent images and gory details. For example, they are exposed to very little violence on television or in movies. I have been very temperate with stories of the martyrs for the very same reasons many of you have described.
We are very purposeful, prayerful, and careful in our approach as I am sure most people on this forum are as well. Our decisions stem from who we are as parents, are heartfelt and feel right to us. We are each in our own very unique situations. Parents are the ones who know themselves and their children the best! Not saying that this is the right way, just how we've chosen to handle it 
Thanks for starting this thread, Sarah. I'm learning a lot!
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CrunchyMom
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Regarding beheading specifically, I guess to my adult mind, it is more humane and less gruesome than crucifixion which I have actual pictures and statues of all over my home. Even St. Paul was beheaded since that was a *privilege* of being a citizen of Rome. As far as martyrdoms go, it paints a less gruesome image in my own mind than being eaten by lions, hanging, and of course, torture. So, I'm sure I'm prejudiced by my own perceptions in what I think is disturbing.
I think that is must be a cultural issue, too. I'm reminded of the scene in INN OF THE SIXTH HAPPINESS where, when upon arriving in China, she witnesses a beheading taking place on the public square! She is shocked and runs away, but the older, experienced missionary reminds her that the English hang people, and that can't be any better to watch.
I also think we all must have similar prejudices (or lack thereof) that affect how we determine appropriateness. I still laugh (in an "I can't believe it" sort of way) when we flip through the Playmobile catalog to find a Colosseum and gladiators! I can't imagine that they really thought that one through or that the people buying it have either. Pretty sure they aren't going to come out with a Southern plantation set anytime soon. However, we would be MUCH more sensitive to that and no one would laugh. Why? It isn't actually worse.
The idea of learning of such things through the distance of fairy makes a ton of sense. Would the distance of time create a similar barrier? It seems to.
JennGM wrote:
We should be upset when reading about martyrs, but it is also a *good*. The act of martyrdom isn't evil, it's the result of evil, but it's good triumping over evil. It's just that the Gospel is opposite of the world's view, a stumbling block. Christ's death is triumphant, but not seen in the world's eyes. To be a martyr means to go straight to heaven, the goal of our life here.
To read stories of children desiring to be martyrs (Teresa of Avila one that comes to mind) makes me think I could be overprotective. Am I inspiring my child enough to not think of this world but the next?
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Yes, these are definitely some of the thoughts I have when determining how to approach things. I want to present them in a way that my children seek to approach death bravely. I don't presently fear death, myself, as much as I fear dying poorly 
As I learn to be more Catholic in my thinking, the idea of suffering having meaning and being *good* is very contrary to the rest of the world (even to the rest of Christianity). The seeming emphasis on "gore" in Catholic saints stories for children as opposed to other genres stems from their being decidedly Catholic.
It is hard to find a source for guidance in how to approach this since most secular and Christian sources are going to have a decidedly different worldview in this area.
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I think what I don't like about "beheading" is that the word itself pretty much describes what is going on.. (why can't they just say executed/killed?) I'm sure I was an adult before I really understood exactly how harsh crucifixion was.. the word doesn't really describe the mechanism of death... hmm yes, I think that's what I look for.. words that don't necessarily describe the mechanism of death.
I tend to err on the side of presenting people as basically good though sometimes acting out of fear or ignorance.. I talk to my kids about how sad it is that someone would choose abortion because they don't understand what it is they're really doing.. and so we pray for both the mother and the baby.. that type of thing.. no way no how do I attempt to explain the mechanism of death.
But on the flip side I don't want to protect my children from death in such a way that it feels "unreal" to them.. . even if they could say that it's real blah blah but they never really connect to that. So we take them to family funerals and talk about grandparents who have died and such.. so that they experience the natural deaths that happen in life.. so that there isn't a disconnect in death being real. But still protect them from the mechanisim of violent death.
And again, I'm not saying that to protect them from death in stories is wrong.. and certainly I protect mine in many cases. But not from bad people killing good people in stories.. and not from the fact of it happening. make sense?
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Learning about the saints....gently
