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Michaela
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Am I correct to believe that the evil one cannot read our thoughts or control us mentally?
We have a situation happening in our newly formed homeschool group, and I've told everyone that I believe Satan is trying to destroy what has been so good and beautiful.
After reflecting a bit, I wonder is that possible? How can the evil one control or influence anything?
We are all (at least I am) praying the St. Michael prayer.
I just don't really understand.
Everything comes from God. God is omnipotent.
The evil one has NO control unless God allows it.
Should I believe God has let this happen or that the evil one has the power to do this? or some of both?
Thank you for your guidance and clarification.
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Michaela
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Michaela
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I'm going to see what I can find in the CCC, but I do hope someone is willing to share their thoughts.
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Michaela
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LisaR
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A very wise and Holy Priest/ Monsignor, who has counseled and given retreats to the Vatican recently, said something that really impacted me in a homily about 10 years ago at my (then ) parish.
He said that we as Christians need to take more responsibility for our own sinful actions/nature, and stop trying to blame everything on the devil.
He even said "who do you think you are that the devil has time to pay attention to you??? " By putting the blame on Satan for when things go wrong, we give him attention, which is what he craves.
This homily advised when something goes worng in our lives, we should give PRAISE to God for allowing us to see our weakness/vulnerability/mistake, etc, and learn and grow from the situation, and move on.
The emphasis should most usually be, and our most often response should be directed toward God, and HIS Saints and Angels, to help us, and to always be pointing toward them, not Satan.
(of course,there are most certainly situations where one is under spiritual attack, but unless we allow this/ask for it, more often than not it is our own sinful nature making poor/sinful choices....)
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Michaela
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I truly appreciate your response, Lisa.
I think in trying to figure out how this could happen I placed blame on Satan. Maybe that's easier than the truth of what's happening.
It just made no sense since I don't believe he can control us or make us do anything we don't choose to.
(If I need to be corrected here, I'm open to hearing...and learning.) I'm not of the "devil made me do it" mentality. The Monsignor is correct in that the devil receives more attention and blame than he deserves.
I must have seemed a bit off base, to the moms, when I sent the St. Michael prayer. LOL I just saw all the beauty and everything good that was created crumbling so quickly.
Thank you, Lisa.
God Bless.
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mrsgranola
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I'd like to read more about this, as well. I know that the devil can't make us do something against our will but I do believe he can taunt us at times... kick us when we are down. Is that right or wrong in my thinking?
JoAnna
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JodieLyn
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I haven't really researched this so understand that this is based almost entirely on CS Lewis' The Screwtape Letters..
But also it's said in the Bible that he tempted Eve
so it seems to me that he preys on weaknesses.. sorta.. encouraging us to along the wrong path.. but whatever path that is will depend on the weakness you struggle with.
so when all is said and done.. it's still up to each individual to battle their own weakness.
It sounds to me like perhaps your group is out of the "honeymoon" period and people are "letting their hair down".. and you do get a rocky period in here and then things will start to smooth down again.
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Michaela
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Yes, the honeymoon is over.
Now, I'm trying to figure out how Satan does influence us.
I will have to delve deeper into scripture to answer a few questions running through my mind.
Ephesians 6:11-12,16
Put on the full armour of God so as to be able to resist the devil's tactics.
For it is not against human enemies that we have to struggle, but against the principalities and the ruling forces who are masters of the darkness in this world, the spirits of evil in the heavens16
and always carrying the shield of faith so that you can use it to quench the burning arrows of the Evil One.
What are his tactics?
What are these burning arrows?
What power does he have? 1 John 5:19
Being possesed by the devil is different than how he influences us, especially since he cannot read our minds or control us.
Then, if he can possess us, why do we say he can't control us?
Guardian Angels are given charge of us(Psalm 91:11).
It's late, and I'm not going too far, if anywhere, with these questions or finding the answers right now.
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Michaela
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Michaela
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mrsgranola wrote:
| I do believe he can taunt us at times... kick us when we are down. |
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The how is a part of what I'm trying to understand. If he can't read my mind, how can he taunt me?
JodieLyn wrote:
But also it's said in the Bible that he tempted Eve |
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Yes, Eve fell for it. He also tempted Christ.
In both accounts, I believe he was visable and spoke to them. He wasn't hidden nor did they hear voices/whispers in their ear. (I have to look into if he always is visable in the Bible when he tempts or tries to influence....not the same as possessing)
JodieLyn wrote:
| so it seems to me that he preys on weaknesses.. sorta.. encouraging us to along the wrong path |
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This is what I had always believed, but how does this take place?
Ok, I'll really stop now.  It's after midnight here.
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aussieannie
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Micheala, have you read An Exorcist Tells His Story? This is very enlightening reading and it is written by Father Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome.
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I believe that we are in spiritual warfare - that the Evil One tries to destroy what is good - having just read the biographies of Saint John Vianney and Saint Pio and Saint Teresa of Avila - their attacks from the devil were very real.
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I agree with Marilyn.
We learned in Theology and Philosophy at college that angels/ devils, while they cannot read thoughts, are WAY more intelligent than we are and have alot of "experience" viewing our actions and deducing motives, therefore they are able to make very good guesses at our thoughts. 
as far as temptation -- it is simply presenting a "phantasm" or sense image to our minds that they are hoping that we will give our attention to.
The preying on weakness that Jodie mentioned -- I think that is really true, but I don't have any sources to back myself up. I've just always figured or been told, can't remember which, that the evil one knows that we are weak and can guess where we are weak. . .
Just thoughts . . .
One thing that an exorcist priest that my family knows says that even if we aren't doing anything wrong, he can try to "annoy" us out of spite -- like John Vianney, but in milder ways.
Here is a really beautiful prayer to our Lady regarding the evil spirits. I have been told that it is more powerful than the St. Michael one because it appeals to Mary and she is more powerful than St. Michael, obviously.
August Queen of Heaven
Sovereign Mistress of the Angels,
thou who from the beginning recieved from God
he power and mission
to crush the head of Satan,
we beseech thee to send forth thy holy angels,
that under thy command and by thy power,
they may pursue the evil spirits,
encounter them on every side,
resist their bold attacks,
and drive them far away from us
into the abyss of everlasting woe.
Most holy Mother, send thy angels to defend us
and to drive the cruel enemy from us
All ye holy Angels and Archangels,
help and defend us
O good and tender Mother!
Thou shalt ever be our Love and our Hope.
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JodieLyn wrote:
But also it's said in the Bible that he tempted Eve |
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slight side track, sorry, but maybe someone will know?
How was it that the devil was "allowed" in Paradise? If Eden was perfect - why did God allow the Devil into it at all? Once the devil was in it, how could it be described as "perfect" or a "paradise"?
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JennGM
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Michaela,
Since I know you like to read and ponder your questions, I have some sources. The section from The Catechism of the Catholic Church on The Fall details a bit on the devil, temptation, original sin, and our fight against it all.
Also what was posted on the Guardian Angels applies to the Devils, also:
Women for Faith and Family has assembled a wonderful page on the guardian angels including excerpts from the Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy.
Directory wrote:
217. Popular devotion to the Holy Angels, which is legitimate and good, can, however, also give rise to possible deviations:
- when, as sometimes can happen, the faithful are taken by the idea that the world is subject to demiurgical struggles, or an incessant battle between good and evil spirits, or Angels and daemons, in which man is left at the mercy of superior forces and over which he is helpless; such cosmologies bear little relation to the true Gospel vision of the struggle to overcome the Devil, which requires moral commitment, a fundamental option for the Gospel, humility and prayer;[/li
- when the daily events of life, which have nothing or little to do with our progressive maturing on the journey towards Christ are read schematically or simplistically, indeed childishly, so as to ascribe all setbacks to the Devil and all success to the Guardian Angels. The practice of assigning names to the Holy Angels should be discouraged, except in the cases of Gabriel, Raphael and Michael whose names are contained in Holy Scripture.
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There is an excellent book, a classic written in 1923 entitled The Spiritual Life: A treatise on Ascetical and Mystical Theology written in 1923 by Very Rev. Adolphe Tanquerey. Most of it was scanned and is online in .txt form.
I've posted some pertinent excerpts.
There was an excellent catechism by Bishop Louis Morrow, entitled My Catholic Faith. I found an older version online, and the section on Devils and Angels is excellent. I do not know what is on the rest of the site.
I'm rushing out the door, so that's why I'm just thrusting quotes and not discussing. But I find it is better to give you the Church's word and very tried and true sources for the final say.
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LisaR
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JennGM wrote:
when the daily events of life, which have nothing or little to do with our progressive maturing on the journey towards Christ are read schematically or simplistically, indeed childishly, so as to ascribe all setbacks to the Devil and all success to the Guardian Angels. ] |
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THIS is the quote I was looking for. One of my biggest pet peeves, is the above "habit", which I was made more aware of how wrong it is after Monsignor's excellent homily years ago!!!
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Michaela
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aussieannie wrote:
| Micheala, have you read An Exorcist Tells His Story? This is very enlightening reading and it is written by Father Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome. |
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Annie, after reading your book suggestion, I went to our local Catholic bookstore and bought it. 
While there I picked up Did Adam & Eve Have Belly Buttons? with my oldest son in mind. While previewing it, I came across question #145 What does the devil look like? on page 181-182 (for anyone who has the book).
The last paragraph reads Images of the devil as a red imp with a pitchfork and tail can be dangerous if they cause us not to take the devil seriously. That, of course, is part of satan's plan. He is never so successful as when we make light of his existence. As C.S. Lewis noted in his classic The Screwtape Letters, the devil's greatest success is to get us to deny that he exists. Why? Because then we will not be on guard against him.
Why be on guard if he cannot do much of anything? He must be able to John 10:10,1 Peter 5:8 and I'm trying to understand how.
Jenn, I also have your links to pursue. Thank you for taking the time to find all of that and share it with me. I do prefer scripture and teachings of Our Holy Mother Church for guidance (and the final word).
Jodie, I own C.S. Lewis' book Screwtape Letters, but have never read it.  That's another one I have added to my reading/study list.
MarilynW wrote:
| the Evil One tries to destroy what is good |
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Yes, according to John 10:10 he comes to destroy. Maybe something good, like what's happening in our homeschooling group. Maybe I'm placing blame here.
MarilynW wrote:
| having just read the biographies of Saint John Vianney and Saint Pio and Saint Teresa of Avila - their attacks from the devil were very real. |
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I hadn't considered this angle. I recently watched Padre Pio A Miracle Man (I wouldn't recommend this for young or sensitive viewers.) It showed some of the attacks that he went through.
So much to read through....
Thank you all for helping me along and your patience with me. My post is a bit scattered as I tried to get some thoughts out before the board closed...so you know you were helpful. I certainly am not trying to give satan more credit than he deserves, but now I do have questions that I need to find answers to.
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Michaela
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cactus mouse wrote:
JodieLyn wrote:
But also it's said in the Bible that he tempted Eve |
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slight side track, sorry, but maybe someone will know?
How was it that the devil was "allowed" in Paradise? If Eden was perfect - why did God allow the Devil into it at all? Once the devil was in it, how could it be described as "perfect" or a "paradise"? |
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Such an interesting question, Laura. It deserve more attention.
You have me wondering the same thing now. My brain is on information overload though.
God is outside of time...all knowing...knows the past, present, and future....God knew the temptation and obviously the consequences from the tree of knowledge Genesis 2:17. Interesting. God knew Satan would come. Why was Satan allowed in? Why was the Tree of knowledge there?
God knew Satan was on the prowl. Does this come down to free will? It seems like testing....
Like I wrote....information overload...I haven't had time to think this one through.
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JennGM
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Michaela, Happy reading. One of the things I wanted to point out that because of the fall and original sin, our nature is weak. It's not only the devil that temptation comes, but also the world and the flesh. So we definitely can't always say it's the devil.
Also, regarding exorcisms and such. The chapter I didn't include was on obsession and possession from The Spiritual Life. I didn't include it because Father stressed that it was the extreme and not ordinary ways of the devil. The attacks on saints happened when they reach such a high plane in their spiritual life. Here's the beginning of that chapter:
Quote:
Chapter III: Extraordinary Mystical Phenomena
1489. In describing contemplation, we made no mention of the extraordinary phenomena such as visions, revelations, etc., which frequently accompany it, especially after the soul has reached the stage of ecstatic union. Since the devil apes divine works, diabolical phenomena are known to occur at times among the mystics, true or false. We shall speak first of the divine and then of the diabolical phenomena. |
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I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not common in our everyday lives. It's a little outside of your question.
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JennGM
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Michaela wrote:
cactus mouse wrote:
How was it that the devil was "allowed" in Paradise? If Eden was perfect - why did God allow the Devil into it at all? Once the devil was in it, how could it be described as "perfect" or a "paradise"? |
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Such an interesting question, Laura. It deserve more attention.
You have me wondering the same thing now. My brain is on information overload though.
God is outside of time...all knowing...knows the past, present, and future....God knew the temptation and obviously the consequences from the tree of knowledge Genesis 2:17. Interesting. God knew Satan would come. Why was Satan allowed in? Why was the Tree of knowledge there?
God knew Satan was on the prowl. Does this come down to free will? It seems like testing....
Like I wrote....information overload...I haven't had time to think this one through. |
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Without looking up anything, my first thought even though it was perfect, it's not Heaven. Satan was driven out of heaven. First, the angels were tested, and Satan and his followers refused to serve and were banished to hell.
Man had to also be tested. Satan was allowed to be part of the test. Now what is written in Genesis isn't necessarily literal.
I'll think about it tomorrow and see if I can flesh it out. I remember Scott Hahn talking a bit about this at FUS.
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Hahn talks about this in A Father Who Keeps His Promises. I am going from memory here, but God told Adam to care for and guard Eden. We think of the sin as Eve's, since she ate the apple first, but Adam had already failed by letting Satan in. (And, the language in Genesis indicates that Adam was standing right there when Satan was tempting Eve, so he failed to protect his bride as well.)
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cactus mouse wrote:
How was it that the devil was "allowed" in Paradise? If Eden was perfect - why did God allow the Devil into it at all? Once the devil was in it, how could it be described as "perfect" or a "paradise"? |
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JennGM wrote:
| Without looking up anything, my first thought even though it was perfect, it's not Heaven. |
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I asked my co-op religion class this question this morning. I figured they'd all go home thinking about the mystery of this question.
A 13-yr-old promptly gave me the same answer as you, Jenn.
And, really, it's a very basic, practical answer to such a numbing question, isn't it?
I wasn't surprised you were smart enough to give that answer, Jenn. The 13-yr-old did leave me speechless.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Can we talk about the evil one?
