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Cay Gibson
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I believe that my over-sensitive, highly dramatic child does not so much have a personality flaw as much as being burdened with the problem of scruples. I know St. Therese of Lisieux and St. Teresa of Avila suffered from this as well but I have not sufficiently looked into how to deal with the problem at home. I would know more so how to deal with it in myself than deal with a delicate soul with this issue.
I don't have time to write more but I needed to ask how would you or how do you handle scruples in your child?
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Cay Gibson
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Matilda
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I have heard that the best thing for anyone with a tendency to scrupulosity is to have a good, regular spiritual director who can be trusted completely (and one who understands the complexities of scrupulosity). Essentially, the scrupulous person must trust them enough to believe that the spiritual director will take on the responsibility of the guilt as long as they follow the direction given. I am not sure if this information would hold true for a child as well.
Scrupulosity can be related to OCD, but isn't necessarily grounds for a diagnosis.
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JSchaaf
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Can you tell me more about scrupulosity? Google searches are making me more confused. Having scruples is not good?
Jennifer
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Cay Gibson
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Jennifer,
I'm trying to dig up more information. What I know of it I read from The Story of a Soul...so I don't know much.  I'll try to find the passages and post here tonight. We have dance this evening so I don't have much time.
Something happened yesterday that made me realize this is something beyond oversensitivity and dramatization.
Does anyone know of something that can guide me to discern this correctly? I don't want to confuse bipolar with scrupulosity. This is an extremely bright child, yet so moody.
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Cay Gibson
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Cay Gibson
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JSchaaf wrote:
Having scruples is not good?
Jennifer |
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Not always. Wiki explains it well (click link for more explanation):
"Scrupulosity is obsessive concern with one's personal sins, including "sinful" acts or thoughts usually considered minor or not sins at all within one's religious tradition."
"In Catholicism, scrupulosity in itself is not considered to be sinful; "
Matilda, they mention that it's usually labeled OCD in today's modern world; yet she doesn't show common signs of this other than a movement of her elbow when under pressure. It mentions OCD being an anxiety disorder which we have in the family on my mom's side. And would OCD mean I can debunk the chance of bipolar?
As an aside, I found this VERY interesting to read:
"Some Catholic scholars have speculated that Martin Luther, whose ideas and writings helped give rise to the Protestant Reformation, suffered from scrupulosity and broke with the Catholic Church because he could not accept Catholic assurances of grace in the face of his feelings of sinfulness."
I always have believed in God's abundant mercy. This was so refreshing to read.
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Cay Gibson
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helene
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An overscrupulous person is one who believes he has sinned when he has not and is constantly plagued by guilty feelings. I have had 2 children suffer with this for a time. It happened to both of them at an age when they were old enough to understand the horror of sin and not yet mature enough to know when they personally have consented to a sin or somehow became guilty of sinful thoughts. Good long talks with Dad helped, as did re-reading the difference between venial and mortal sin and going over the three necessary conditions in order for a mortal sin to occur. It is kind of a stage, though, and sometimes you won't be able to talk them out of it. It is a weakness, it is irrational and sometimes needs to be suffered through with patience and courage. It also helps to distract them. The opening of baseball season helped a lot. He was "thinking too much"....I am happy to say both kids got over these episodes and have not had return problems for years!
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kingvozzo
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Matilda wrote:
| I have heard that the best thing for anyone with a tendency to scrupulosity is to have a good, regular spiritual director who can be trusted completely (and one who understands the complexities of scrupulosity). Essentially, the scrupulous person must trust them enough to believe that the spiritual director will take on the responsibility of the guilt as long as they follow the direction given. I am not sure if this information would hold true for a child as well. |
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I have heard this as well. I suffered with mild scruples when I was in my early 20's. I was told something by my priest which made a big difference to me, but might possibly add to the scrupulant's burden. I really struggled with accepting that God could possibly forgive the horrendous sins I had committed, even though I had confessed them. My priest mentioned that this was presumptious. God has given us assurance of his mercy, and who am I to think I know better than Him? This brought me great comfort, and an end to my scruples.
I will keep your dd in my prayers, Cay. It can be so difficult as a parent to nurture and protect these tender souls God sends to us!
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Angel
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Cay Gibson wrote:
JSchaaf wrote:
Having scruples is not good?
Jennifer |
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Not always. Wiki explains it well (click link for more explanation):
"Scrupulosity is obsessive concern with one's personal sins, including "sinful" acts or thoughts usually considered minor or not sins at all within one's religious tradition."
"In Catholicism, scrupulosity in itself is not considered to be sinful; "
Matilda, they mention that it's usually labeled OCD in today's modern world; yet she doesn't show common signs of this other than a movement of her elbow when under pressure. It mentions OCD being an anxiety disorder which we have in the family on my mom's side. And would OCD mean I can debunk the chance of bipolar?
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Cay, here are a couple of pretty straightforward links describing OCD and bipolar disorder. When we were given the OCD checklist for my son, I noticed that I fit more of the questions than he did (and I think I sound a bit like your daughter). And although we did answer yes to a few of the questions on the OCD checklist, a diagnosis wasn't warranted because there weren't enough obsessions/complusions and the ones that did exist weren't intense enough.
However, speaking from experience, extreme sensitivity can be difficult to deal with, even if it can't be "diagnosed" as anything. As an adult I've finally learned to understand that my sins really can be forgiven, but as a child all that guilt built up and built up and eventually lead to depression. I, however, didn't really have anybody I trusted enough to talk to, which I think would have really helped.
---Angela
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Rachel May
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I'm curious if anyone has tried finding a spiritual director for their child and whether it has helped. My boys are confessing twice a week and rarely taking Communion. When we discuss their sins (after mass because I always forget to ask before) our conversations go like this:
"Do you need to go to confession? Did you commit a mortal sin? Remember a mortal sin is about a big thing, like breaking one of the 10 Commandments, you have to know it is wrong and you have to choose to do it anyway. Will you tell me what you did?"
"I talked with food in my mouth."
"How is that a mortal sin?"
"You told me not to and I just did anyway because I wanted to and 'honor your father and mother' is one of the 10 Commandments."
At this point I didn't know whether to laugh or pull my hair out!
Can you help me explain "honor your father and mother" better? That might help, but that's not always the commandment we end up at. We're hairsplitters by nature, others would probably find some OCD behaviors but I (oddly) don't obsess about
that. 
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JennGM
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Rachel May wrote:
I'm curious if anyone has tried finding a spiritual director for their child and whether it has helped. My boys are confessing twice a week and rarely taking Communion. When we discuss their sins (after mass because I always forget to ask before) our conversations go like this:
"Do you need to go to confession? Did you commit a mortal sin? Remember a mortal sin is about a big thing, like breaking one of the 10 Commandments, you have to know it is wrong and you have to choose to do it anyway. Will you tell me what you did?"
"I talked with food in my mouth."
"How is that a mortal sin?"
"You told me not to and I just did anyway because I wanted to and 'honor your father and mother' is one of the 10 Commandments."
At this point I didn't know whether to laugh or pull my hair out!
Can you help me explain "honor your father and mother" better? That might help, but that's not always the commandment we end up at. We're hairsplitters by nature, others would probably find some OCD behaviors but I (oddly) don't obsess about
that. |
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I have only a second, but thought I would just mention what is missing is the actual SERIOUS MATTER. Yes, it broke the 4th commandment, but the three things: Must be seriously evil in itself isn't fulfilled.
Perhaps your phrasing threw them off. All sins really fit into the 10 Commandments, but there are different venial and mortal. Examples of grevious sins would be good.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Rachel May
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I think to them the disobedience was the grievious sin (which I hate to argue with ), but I did tell them that this was a bad manners situation not bad morals. I'll try to think of some good examples for them.
Today we stopped by to visit our old priest on a whim. He was very concerned about this, told them to always go to Communion, and that they can not commit a mortal sin yet. As a help, he threw out the idea that they can't commit a mortal sin until they are 18. I understand his intent, that they should not start to focus on this until they are older. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure what happened is that they think that on their 18th birthday they will magically be able to commit a mortal sin. They will probably start saying they hope to die before them (Charles already does this.) Really, we do discuss sin, but we talk about love, goodness, Jesus, works of charity so much more. It seems bizarre to be dealing with this.
I'll see how things go this next week to see if Fr.'s talk "took."
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Rachel
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JennGM
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Rachel May wrote:
I think to them the disobedience was the grievious sin (which I hate to argue with ), but I did tell them that this was a bad manners situation not bad morals. I'll try to think of some good examples for them.
Today we stopped by to visit our old priest on a whim. He was very concerned about this, told them to always go to Communion, and that they can not commit a mortal sin yet. As a help, he threw out the idea that they can't commit a mortal sin until they are 18. I understand his intent, that they should not start to focus on this until they are older. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure what happened is that they think that on their 18th birthday they will magically be able to commit a mortal sin. They will probably start saying they hope to die before them (Charles already does this.) Really, we do discuss sin, but we talk about love, goodness, Jesus, works of charity so much more. It seems bizarre to be dealing with this.
I'll see how things go this next week to see if Fr.'s talk "took." |
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Yikes! I don't know if I can totally agree with Father's magic age! Not that your children will do this, but premarital s*x and other "adult situations" can be mortal sins at teenage years! We just keep praying for them to not choose the sin.
I hope Father's talk took. I'm still thinking of other ways to encourage the right direction. But some of their responses is their age.
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helene
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Even consenting to an impure thought would be a mortal sin. That can happen at a fairly early age. But these boys seem to be confusing venial sins with mortal ones because they knew something was wrong and they did it anyway and they may be too young to judge properly that this is not "grave matter" enough for mortal sin. Their consciences are probably sensitive because they have been brought up so well. Time to grow and help from Father will help them develop accurate judgment about these things, I'm sure!
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hylabrook1
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I don't think your priest really *meant* that there is a magical age, just that at their tender ages it is not realistic to think they could form the sort of intent and willful disregard of the truth that lies at the base of mortal sin. I'm sure that as they grow toward 18, you and they will have much more conversation about what constitutes mortal sin and they will come to understand the complexities involved in turning your back on God. There is lots of time between *now* and *then* to make this more clear and better understood. In the meantime/short-run, it makes more sense for them to let go of such a serious concern about childish wrong-doing/sins.
I'm sure you're glad to know that your children take seriously their behavior and their love for God, even though that brings with it some difficulty as they try to work all of that out.
Peace,
Nancy
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ALmom
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Ok, is it helpful that it is fairly normal for children who have been raised carefully do develop sensitivity like this. That was a huge relief for me to know and allowed me to relax a bit myself, which helped the dc.
We simply kept going over the fact that mortal sin had to be deliberate, with full consent of the will and serious matter. If a child thought that some act of disobedience - I didn't come when you called cause I wanted to keep playing instead of listen to you, then we will call them on it. So you really think that .... is serious matter. If necessary, you can include something like - so you think xxx is a serious matter like and then name something truely serious that they already know about. In honesty, they generally began to realize that No, in fact this was not serious matter. Generally the less I was involved in the direct discussion and the more they came to their own answers (with pointed questions), then the quicker they got over it. Do not dwell on detail, take their concerns seriously but turn it back to them and take them to confession as often as they ask. It is never helpful to distort the truth, but don't spend a lot of time discussing adult levels of things like if you thinks something is mortal and do it and it turns out not to be serious matter. Dwell on God's love in all things. One thing we found is that we had to be very careful on who they went to Confession to as some are totally thrown by sensitive consciences and think it is in need of pyschologist/counselor. The reality is that the bigger problem faced today is the loss of the sense of sin. Older priests have seen more of the sensitive consciences and probably have a bit more experience guiding them. And of course pray for your child. You don't want to destroy their sensitivity while helping them over the hump. We should all have well formed consciences.
We also, always noticed this being much more acute right before major Sacramental moments like First Communion and Confirmation.
Janet
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Rachel May
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OK, I'm not great with multiple quotes so, I'm not going to attempt it, but I'm loving the help here.
Nancy, you are right about Fr. not meaning it to be a magical age as I'm sure both he and I have thought of Jenn's and Helene's exact examples. Today, the boys had a conversation with Bill that confirmed for me that they understood it that way, and I tried to lightly clarify it. I know we'll continue to have these conversations to help them realize the truth.
So here is a question that Janet reminded me to ask. Are there things that ARE mortal sins for children that AREN'T for adults? For example, for a child I see obeying your parents especially in important things as a part of honoring them. As an adult, I don't need to obey my parents anymore, but I do need to honor them in other ways, like I need to speak of them respectfully. Do you see it that way too, or am I off?
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helene
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Rachel May,
I have never heard of something being a mortal sin for a child but not for an adult. Most children cannot commit mortal sins because they lack judgment and maturity and most of their sins in question just aren't serious enough matter for the mortal sin category. Their sins just don't meet all 3 criteria for martal sins. You have to have all 3!
Something that has helped in our family is a quotation from St. Alphonsus Liguori....I'll have to paraphrase but he said something like "If you're wondering whether you committed a mortal sin, you didn't. You would have to know it was mortal before doing it in order for it to be mortal."
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guitarnan
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Rachel, I also don't know of sins children can commit that would be serious enough to be mortal. Once we reach the later teen years, of course it is possible to commit several types of mortal sins (because teens have access to more of society and could actually buy a gun and shoot someone, for example, which a younger child could not).
Even though honoring parents is critical for children, I think we must still temper that criticality against the moral development of the child. The teen who breaks into a parent's room, steals checks and forges Mom's signature on said checks is light years away from the child who says, "OK, Mom, I'll do it," and then doesn't...at age 9.
Development of an awareness of sin takes time. That's why the Church doesn't let toddlers go to confession. Their brains literally aren't developed enough to distinguish among sins, accidents and mistakes. Their God-given physiology makes this impossible. Most children reach this developmental stage around age 7, but some take more time to get there.
Without a clear understanding of what sin is, a child cannot commit serious sin.
Of course, that doesn't relieve us, the parents, of the responsibility of teaching our children about God's forgiveness...and that means teaching children what sin is, and how to decide to avoid it.
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ALmom
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Emphasize the love of God and your love as a parent - as you teach. Our children are trying to sort things out, they want to be good, to love God, etc. and are also discovering common weaknesses. We've had children want to get right back in line for Confession - and we didn't say a thing about it. We simply then made sure we emphasized that they end the confession with "and all my sins" to cover anything they may inadvertantly forget and that the Sacrament is such a wonderful moment of grace where God gives us, not only forgiveness, but help (actual grace) in avoiding the sin in the future. Sometimes this takes time (human weakness)but God wants us to keep coming to Him in the Sacraments. We also brought up devotional confession with some of ours as they want to go every week and we go/take them every time they ask.
We emphasize that just because something is not a mortal sin, doesn't mean it is trivial. This helps them realize that their horror at their venial sins does not make it a mortal sin. If we really understand the seriousness of sin, we would have a horror for the smallest venial sin (wish I was there). So the horror they feel for the sin, is a good thing, but it should not keep them from Holy Communion unless it is truely a mortal sin. You may read the quote from the Saint (and I wish I could remember which one it was) about the need for Communion. The Saints go to Communion often because they are so close to God, but even more, sinners need Communion because we are so weak and we need Him so much! This is a paraphrase - but perhaps someone else could help you find this.
Anyways it is helpful for children to know that emotions are not always the best of guides. This is something we have had to actually speak of directly as emotion is very much a part of our surroundings and especially for the artsy type of child or one who is more emotional than academic or going through a hormonal transition time.
The biggest help to me was knowing that it really, really was normal. And, yes, having a good, understanding priest is very, very helpful - but we experienced something that made us careful about who this child went to confession with - and pray for them and their confessor.
Janet
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Rachel May
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Thanks for all the help! There is a lot here for me to work with. Father's little talk with them has at least impressed on them to not avoid Communion when they have only committed a venial sin. Now they are much more willing to discuss their sins before Mass, say an act of Contrition and prepare to receive Communion. That is definitely a step forward for them. And thank you all for teaching me.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Scruples
