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JSchaaf
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| Posted: April 16 2007 at 6:01pm | IP Logged
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I got into a conversation today with a women who believes in the Holy Trinity, but that when Jesus was born of a human he gave up his deity until he was resurrected and returned to the Father. I know that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Is there anyplace in Scripture that defends this/explains it? Or (and I will be very embarrassed) am I wrong??
Thanks
Jennifer
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JSchaaf
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| Posted: April 16 2007 at 6:16pm | IP Logged
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I found this explanation here.
I'm not familiar with the Church of Christ but the argument seems well thought out and backed up by Scripture.
Jennifer
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JennGM
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| Posted: April 16 2007 at 6:29pm | IP Logged
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Jennifer,
That link might explain in Scripture why, but don't forget our Faith is founded on both Scripture and Tradition (with a capital "T").
Jesus was always God and man. Two natures always existed. He never had a moment where one nature lapsed, or one nature was stronger than another, or one put aside for a time. He is both God and man.
MaryM might be able to give some apologetics links to answer specifically in Scripture.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Family in Feast and Feria
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JSchaaf
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| Posted: April 16 2007 at 6:32pm | IP Logged
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With this woman, I'm trying to stick with Scripture and nothing too overtly "Catholic". Is that wrong? She says she believes things only if they are in the Bible, in black and white.
I did pull out my CCC-fully God and fully man! I knew I was right. 
Jennifer
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JSchaaf
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| Posted: April 16 2007 at 6:32pm | IP Logged
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Oops-forgot to say Thank You!
Jennifer
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margot helene
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| Posted: April 16 2007 at 9:42pm | IP Logged
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JSchaaf wrote:
With this woman, I'm trying to stick with Scripture and nothing too overtly "Catholic". Is that wrong? She says she believes things only if they are in the Bible, in black and white.
Jennifer |
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That stance, however common, always boggles me. Then why don't they believe we have to eat Christ's body and blood since that is explicitly in the Bible.
Anyway . . .
My husband has been teaching an apologetics class to our high school group and he found a tape recording of a speech someone gave on it (sorry I don't who the speaker was - someone current). This speaker said when our Protestant friends say they will only believe it if it is in the Bible, ask them if they believe in the Trinity. That is a good example of a belief that most Christians have that is not in the Bible. It's a way to introduce the thought to them that we believe things from scripture AND tradition.
Not sure if that's very helpful for your particular case.
Margot
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Willa
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| Posted: April 16 2007 at 9:53pm | IP Logged
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Jennifer, you could use the Scriptures you linked to as a starting point. Scripture and Tradition are in accord, so Scripture will never contradict a Catholic position.
What it usually ends up coming down to in Scriptural debates is one person's interpretation against another's. Two people might look at the same verse and interpret it two different ways. I am a convert and have had lots of these discussions, formerly sometimes on the Protestant side! One of the things that brought me to Catholicism was that the Church was the only one who had a solution to the dilemma: "Everyone can't be right, so who is?"
If it gets to that point, the trump is that there is no argument for "Scripture alone" in Scripture itself It is a position that contradicts itself; plus, if you read the Bible carefully, you will see that at the time the Gospels and Epistles were written, the writers took it for granted that Scripture was one branch -- the written one -- of Tradition itself, which is unified. Oral and written tradition are aspects of the same Truth.
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Willa
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Tina P.
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| Posted: April 19 2007 at 1:14am | IP Logged
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And Jennifer, if Jesus gave up his diety during his lifetime, how could he have convinced the Pharisees that he, a child at the time, knew more about their scriptures than they did? How could he possibly have performed all those miracles so plainly stated in the Bible? If he was mere man while he lived, how could he have tolerated the temptations, the agony, the death he endured?
And I would love to know what Protestants say about the four different versions of the Gospels. If they believe only in scripture, there are several points within the Gospels on which they'd have to be schizophrenic to be able to follow *only* what's written in them.  I'm not saying that the Gospels disagree with each other. Some of them leave out bits that others felt it was important to include. They start at different places. They move at different paces. But they all point to the living God.
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MichelleW
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Jennifer,
I am confused. I read the link you provided and it seems to be a proof for Jesus retaining His divinity, not giving it up. It seems quite logical. I guess I don't understand the question?
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Michelle
Mom to 3 (dd 14, ds 15, and ds 16)
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JSchaaf
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| Posted: April 19 2007 at 7:35am | IP Logged
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I want to show my friend that Jesus retained his Divinity. She believes he gave it up when He walked on Earth.
Jennifer
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hylabrook1
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| Posted: April 19 2007 at 5:27pm | IP Logged
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Wasn't this notion of Jesus giving up his Divinity the basis of one of the better-known heresies? I think that the Nicene Creed was written to lay that idea to rest (among other erroneous ideas).
Does one of you ladies know which heresy it was? I should know, but can't think of it at the moment.
Peace,
Nancy
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Tina P.
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| Posted: April 19 2007 at 5:39pm | IP Logged
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Does this sound right, Nancy?
Or here are titles and descriptions of many heresies. Don't have time to check them out now, but maybe these sites will be of help.
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BrendaPeter
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I love these free cds. He is a convert & tries to be as scriptural as possible in his explanations.
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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MichelleW
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I think there are many examples of His deity during His ministry that you could use as evidence, but by far the most compeling has to be that He forgave sins. God had not yet given His authority to forgive sins to The Church. In fact, that was one of the things the Jews were so upset about. Only God could forgive sins, and here was Jesus forgiving and healing. THey weren't upset about the physical healing, it was the spiritual healing that shocked them. Until Jesus gave His authority to Peter, there is no other biblical instance when a man, no matter how godly, had the authority to forgive sins.
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Michelle
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Jane Ramsey
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 7:44am | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
Jesus was always God and man. Two natures always existed. He never had a moment where one nature lapsed, or one nature was stronger than another, or one put aside for a time. He is both God and man.
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Jenn, I don't it's correct to say Jesus was "always" man. I'm assuming you meant to say from his conception he was both. Jesus was always God--but he didn't become Man until He "took flesh" and was conceived in Mary's womb.
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Jane Ramsey
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As to the original question, there are many places in Scripture where Jesus affirms his deity. "I and the Father are one." "Before Abraham came to be, I AM.", etc. I don't have time to look up all the verses but those are some that come to mind.
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JennGM
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| Posted: April 20 2007 at 5:51pm | IP Logged
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Jane Ramsey wrote:
JennGM wrote:
Jesus was always God and man. Two natures always existed. He never had a moment where one nature lapsed, or one nature was stronger than another, or one put aside for a time. He is both God and man.
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Jenn, I don't it's correct to say Jesus was "always" man. I'm assuming you meant to say from his conception he was both. Jesus was always God--but he didn't become Man until He "took flesh" and was conceived in Mary's womb. |
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Oh, good catch, Jane. Thanks for the correction. I was thinking it, as only being called Jesus until after He was Incarnated (but that might be incorrect thinking), but you're so right. Thanks.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Jesus gave up his deity?
