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folklaur
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 1:13pm | IP Logged
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Hi,
Breaking my forum fast, becasue we need help!
My daughter, age 17, is reading her religion work. It happens to be Chapter 4 of the fourth Didache Textbook, "Our Moral Life in Christ." She came to me and said, "Evil in the world is caused by sin, right?"
me: "right..."
her: "but God allows evil to happen, right?"
me: "right...."
her: "But He doesn't DO it, right?"
me: "right..."
her: "WELL THEN READ THIS!!!!!!"
The reading is 2 Sam 12:1-13.
She is having trouble with this part:
11
Thus says the LORD: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.
12
You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'"
How can the Lord bring evil, and not just allow evil? She says, "He didn't just say, becasue of your sin, there will be consequences, but that HE HIMSELF would actually BRING the evil."
Help?
~Laura in AZ
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Maryan
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| Posted: March 26 2007 at 2:23pm | IP Logged
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Good questions -- that and God "hardening Pharaoh's" heart always confuse me. I always seek out answers, but must not really understand them...b/c I forget the explanation!
So... I'll be looking for your anwers too!
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Maryan
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Bridget
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Here is the footnote in the Douay-Rheims.
"All these evils, insamuch as they were punishments, came upon David by a just judgment of God, for his sin, but insamuch as they were sins, on the part of Absalom and his associates, God was not the author of them, but only permitted them."
I think the problem may be one of how the translation came down.
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: March 27 2007 at 8:13am | IP Logged
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Oh man...I hate it when these types of questions come up. I've struggled mightily with the story about Pharoah over the years. Here's my best answer.
1--God cannot be the author of evil. He is goodness and love. This is an absolute, so anything that contradicts it has to be a misunderstanding/mystery to be sought out, rather than assuming God is a meanie.
2--God is also 'tough love' in that He WILL let things happen if they are for either our own good or for the good of the larger community (like with Pharoah).
3--God is a jealous God. That seems to contradict being a loving God. He is a passionate lover and does get jealous at our betrayals (read Hosea!) so we shouldn't be surprised that He talks with language we can understand (such as using words like jealousy).
4--God is not beyond using our hard hearts for the benefit of His overall plan. So in this case, I would assume that God is stating what THEY have already chosen in their heart and He is using it (in His Holy Jealous way)for His greater purposes. That's what I think happened with Pharoah, too.
5--I always tell my kids that in the end, we can never really know fully the mind of God, and somewhere in this mix comes faith that He is All Goodness, Mercy and Justice. Sometimes when we can only understand partially, we just have to assume the best of Him rather than the worst.
In the scripture you referenced, judgment is clearly part of the plan. A sin was committed in secret, and God is going to bring it to light, and He is going to use their hardened hearts in the process to do it. He is The Great Physician who loves us and will NOT allow a cancerous sin to spread. He will do the painful thing and bring it to light so it can be dealt with. In a way, that is merciful, even though the person isn't going to experience it as merciful at the time.
Praying for you, as you answer this question with your dd. Its not an easy one, but you know what? Its so awesome that she asked! She cares, and that is so so special in a teen.
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Joann in AL
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| Posted: March 27 2007 at 9:03am | IP Logged
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Hi, Laura.
I think that when a young adult comes to the place to ask this question, the thing for a parent to do is
find really good answers. When I was in high school (Catholic high school) the standard answer to questions like this was, "You have to take it on faith."
Well, that really wasn't a good enough answer. It's true but as an answer to a specific question, it stinks.
Now, though, we have the Catechism with all its answers and references to the documents, Fathers, and formulated teachings that explain the WHY's of questions like this.
So here's what I found in the Cathechism:
First:
Paragraph 324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
Then: (bold numbers are paragraphs, other numbers are footnote numbers. If you don't have a Catechism, the entire thing can be found here
Providence and the scandal of evil.
309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
311Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: "It was not you", said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that "abounded all the more",179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.
313 "We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him."180 The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:
St. Catherine of Siena said to "those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them": "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."181
St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."182
Dame Julian of Norwich: "Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith. . . and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that 'all manner [of] thing shall be well.'"183
The cross references are mostly to the Summa Theologica by St Thomas Aquinas and some writings of St Augustine.
I don't know that I'd rush out and buy a copy of the Summa, but I would find places where these questions are answered and direct my daughter to them. I would probably have her track down some of the source references so she could see the development of the doctrines. These questions are good steps to the development of "owning" her faith (to use the current catch-phrase) and if she is seriously interested in the answers, she will find them.
I bet that Ignatius Press probably has something in print that would help her understand this. I would call them and talk to someone rather than just trying to guess which of their many books might be helpful.
Hope this helps a little.
Blessings,
Joann
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MichelleW
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*Warning, this is purely opinion*
I think it is the translation, but you also have to remember that we are at war with God. Christ is the peace offering. Chirst alone brings us peace. When we blatantly reject God and His commands we are choosing war with Him. David did this. He knew better, but he chose to break several of God's commands for his own selfishness. He chose war.
In other translations, "calamity" is used instead of "evil." God is not bringing evil. Because of David's choices, God knows that there will be disasterous consequences and here He is making clear that He will not intervene. In the story of Pharoah, He clearly causes the plagues to come upon the Egyptians. He certainly could cause disasters if that were His good pleasure. He is an awesome and mighty God. In this particular passage though (in context) it does not seem to me to mean bring as in "cause" but more "I see it coming and will not stop it."
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MacBeth
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| Posted: March 27 2007 at 6:13pm | IP Logged
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Maybe the simplest way to solve this is to pull the "Old Testament" excuse  . In the OT, folks were just beginning to understand God, and the OT is written as the understanding of the time would allow. Times were brutal, and so were most "gods." The One True God revealed his purpose slowly, as he honed the Israelites to His purpose. They were slow to understand, as well.
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folklaur
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| Posted: March 27 2007 at 8:47pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
| Maybe the simplest way to solve this is to pull the "Old Testament" excuse . |
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Ugh, no, can't do that....when I said I wasn't sure and was going to ask for some outside help (you all) one of the things she said was,
"I hope it isn't the 'that was the Old Testament' explanation. Because it says that it was a Prophet who came to David, and so that would mean that people were recording what the Prophets said 'wrong'...and then how can you look to what the Prophets were saying about the coming Messiah and how to identify Him if it isn't being accuratly recorded?"
This child is the one that keeps me on my toes, more often than not.
Exhausting, she is....
Thank you all for your help and replies!!! It is helping, and it is also good to know that we aren't the only ones who have some questions about verses like these. I never know where or how to ask without seeming like I am lacking faith or something.
Thank you!
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MacBeth
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| Posted: March 27 2007 at 8:59pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
Ugh, no, can't do that....when I said I wasn't sure and was going to ask for some outside help (you all) one of the things she said was,
"I hope it isn't the 'that was the Old Testament' explanation. Because it says that it was a Prophet who came to David, and so that would mean that people were recording what the Prophets said 'wrong'...and then how can you look to what the Prophets were saying about the coming Messiah and how to identify Him if it isn't being accuratly recorded?"
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Heheh...but God knew they wouldn't get it quite right, and yet continued to reveal the Truth... .
The OT is full of problems from our "enlightened" perspective. Yet, we did recognized the Messiah, when the time came. Good for you dd! She's asking all the right questions!
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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Servant2theKing
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Laura, your daughter's questions show that she is really thinking through what she is studying. Her questions are good and will strengthen her faith (and possibly your own, and others' as well). Encourage her to keep seeking answers to those tough questions!
I, too, suspect tranlation is an issue here. The commentary below may shed some light on the meaning of the passage. Our God is a just God who punishes evil and sin, and in his permissive will even allows evil for our good, and for our salvation! Reading the words below gives me profound hope as we approach Divine Mercy Sunday! (The DM Novena begins Good Friday!)
Here's the commentary from the Navarre Bible for 2 Samuel 12: 1-25 (the Navarre Bible is pricey for the set, but very worthwhile!)
Nathan's intervention (vv 1-15), David's repentance (vv 16-19), and the birth of Solomon (vv 20-25) are the main subjects in this chapter. Nathan makes an appeal to David with one of the most beautiful parables in the OT and gets the king to condemn his own conduct: "the man who has done this deserves to die" (v.5). In reply, Nathan tells him the penalty the Lord has decreed, which in line with the law of vengeance or retaliation, has three parts to it, corresponding to David's triple crime-murder, adultery and the fact that the victim was a blameless man. On account of the murder, the sword will not depart from David's house (v 10): this punishment will effect his eldest sons, Amnon, Absalom and Adonikah, who will die violent deaths. For the adultery, his wives will be violated in public (v 11), which will happen when Absalom takes his father's harem (cf 16:20-23). And for the killing of an innocent man., his own recently born son will not survive (v 14).
David's repentance is exemplary (vv 16-19): he weeps for his sin, and fasts and pleads for his little son: so, in spite of his weaknesses and sins, he still trusts in the Lord and shows himself to be "a man after (the Lord's) own heart" (1 Sam 13:14). David is a model of penance because, by acknowledging his sin, he obtained divine forgiveness. His repentance finds expression in Psalm 51, which so beautifully and piously records the sinful king's supplication to the Lord: "Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love, according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin." (Ps 51:1-2)
The birth of a new son (vv 20-25) brings this account to an end and makes it clear that Solomon was born within marriage; his birth causes David great joy and he is given a second name in a message from Nathan-"Jedediah" (v 25): beloved of the Lord. This means that, from birth, Solomon is the one chosen by God to advance his plan of salvation for Israel.
Great was David's sin, and heartfelt his contrition. But God's forgiveness is greatest of all. "In the course of its history, Israel was able to discover that God had only one reason to reveal himself to them, a single motive for choosing them, from all peoples, as his special possession-his sheer gratuitous love. And thanks to the prophets Israel understood that it was again out of love that God never stopped saving them and pardoning their unfaithfulness and sins" (CCC, 218)
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onemoretracy
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Gret answers! Ok I have a question about OT too.
I thought that as Catholics we can see and read the OT as truth revealed to us, but we do not have to read it literally. Literal-ness is not required for a true and complete understanding of faith.
Is this correct?
This understanding has helped my own faith tremendously, so I hope I am thinking correctly about this!
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Helen
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onemoretracy wrote:
| I thought that as Catholics we can see and read the OT as truth revealed to us, but we do not have to read it literally. Literal-ness is not required for a true and complete understanding of faith. |
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I'm sorry I haven't been really following this thread.
The OT has many different books. Each needs to be interpreted according to its type. The Church guides the interpretation and is very faithful to the inspired Word.
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Ave Maria!
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Helen
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Biblical Commission on interpretation of the Bible
a 1994 document.
I thought there was a 1967 one that I was told to read. Brain is mush. Sorry.
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Ave Maria!
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Celeste
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It's so great that your daughter is asking these questions!!!! These aren't direct answers, but they might help in your exploration.
First, the Scriptures have God as their Author (Providentissimus Deus). Divine inspiration is incompatible with error (PD). Scripture teaches "faithfully and without error the truth God wanted put into sacred writings" (Dei Verbum 11). As one of my high school religion teachers said, by divine inspiration we mean that the Holy Spirit guided the sacred authors to write what God intended, the way God intended it, and nothing else.
Second, as St. Augustine says (very loosely paraphrased from memory of high school courses!): If something in the Bible doesn't make sense, or even seems to contradict something else in the Bible, it is because of a mistake of the copyist, or a mistake of the translator, or my own inability to understand.
So, if the translation and the copy aren't faulty, we know that it says what God wants it to say, and if we don't get it, He wants us to figure it out. Remember the pool with five porticoes mentioned in John 5? Scholars said that couldn't be accurate, because a five-sided pool, a pentagon, would be a Greek structure; a Jewish pool would be shaped more like a rectangle. Guess what archaeologists discovered? The pool in question was shaped like a rectangle . . . with a fifth portico in the middle. (I hope I remembered that story correctly. . . .) A case of our lack of understanding.
I'll stop now.
Celeste
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: HELP (please!) with DD17 Religion reading
