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pumpkinmom
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The first week went great. By the second and third week I knew they were starting to struggle. I decided to spend two weeks on a lesson and still they are struggling. We are using Latina Christiana and I don't believe the program in the problem.
They are doing best with learning the vocabulary and they are learning only about fifty percent of it. The youngest is doing better than the oldest. I have them write out the vocab and grammar almost every day (3-4 days a week) and they still can't spell any of the words even if they have learn to say the word and what it means. Neither of them understand the grammar part of the lesson. Youngest has a slightly better grasp of it but it depends on the day. 
I know there is the Prima Latina, but I can't afford to buy it. I even thought that maybe getting the dvds to go with our current program would be helpful, but the budget says no. I may be able to purchase something in the spring.
I'm surprised that my 12 year old is struggling more with it. He is frustrated with it, but the 9 year old is trudging along happily most days.
Do I stick with this and keep pushing through and hope by the end of the year they picked up something? Or do I put it away because they aren't ready for it yet. Or do I put it aside and then purchase the dvds or the other program this spring? Any other suggestions?
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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Cassie,
Our experience with Latin is that learning it does not come easily. It is work! And hard work! The first question is for you:
1) Is learning Latin a priority in your home education?
The answer may be yes or no. Many have answered no to this question. If that's your answer, then I suppose that would resolve a number of the following questions for you. If this is not a priority in your schedule, then this is not where you want to invest your/their time and effort.
I think I could make a pretty good case for learning Latin, acknowledging that it is a challenging language to learn. It is the language of the church, our own english language is much based on Latin roots and etymology, and once learned, it really is an enjoyable language. It helps tremendously on standardized tests in the vocabulary department, and beyond that, it teaches logic through the very ordered way in which the language is read, understood and translated.
So, knowing that you've got a 9 yo and a 12 yo...and IF you answered yes to the first question about Latin's place in your schedule...
2) I'd suggest splitting the two boys and approaching Latin separately. There is a big age/ability difference between 9 and 12. Also, boys tend to be highly competitive - especially brothers. If you don't think competition is an issue and that their abilities with Latin are on par, then by all means combine as much as you can!
3) You're right to slow lessons down. It's fine to take 2 - 3 weeks on a lesson. Really break it down. Introduce the lesson and the vocabulary one day. Discuss the grammar the next day. Review the vocabulary every day - no matter how many weeks you spend on the lesson. Do not progress to the next lesson until:
** Vocabulary is mastered.
** The child can conjugate/decline the introduced verb/noun.
4) EVEN...if it takes you 3 years to slog through Latina Christiana I...do not be disheartened!!! You can pick right up with Henle and roll! But you will never regret having laid that fantastic Latin grammar foundation with LCI. It will serve the boys well in Henle, which really has an altogether different feel to it.
5) Start your Latin time each day with a little vocabulary review. Make your own flashcards if you have to. IF...and that's a big *IF*...the boys aren't too competitive, they can quiz each other. If they're super competitive then this would become a recipe for disaster. Just review Latin vocabulary daily.
6) Review one declension or conjugation each week. Keep working on it until the kids have the case endings mastered!
7) Once the vocabulary from the lesson is mastered, and the case endings for that lesson is mastered, then work together on the exercises. Maybe one or two a day. They can be tough, so don't feel bad about just tackling one set a day.
8) Can you see how at this pace, it may very well take you three weeks on a lesson? But guess what? They'll know that lesson!
9) I think if you slow way down you'll have less angst and frustration, though I want to be very honest, I wouldn't expect somersaults of delight when Latin comes out. The thing is though, you can slow down enough so that it isn't overwhelming. It has always been so rewarding for us when we FINALLY make it through Latina Christiana! The child feels accomplished! And they KNOW Latin and have a great understanding of it at that point!
10) Truthfully, the grammatical component of learning Latin cannot be underscored enough. I would go as far as to say that if you're working on Latin, you can shelve any other grammar program. To learn Latin, you must learn grammar. They walk side-by-side. Therefore, a grammar program can really be quite redundant with a good, solid Latin program in place. And, if you're really struggling to set a good pace with Latin, that's an area you can cut.
-------------------------------------------------------
Be encouraged! Latin, though challenging, is rewarding, and I have never regretted making it a priority in our days! These are the few consistent keys I've found over the years:
:: I HAVE to be involved!!!
:: Lessons must be daily and short!
:: Review must take place daily.
:: Don't cut corners on the exercises or translations. You don't have to write them - you could ask for them orally, but those translations are so important!
:: Grammar understanding and mastery is key. You WILL NOT learn Latin without it. Nothing out there beats Memoria Press/Latina Christiana for teaching it effectively! In short, you've got a great program! You may just have to tweak how you use it, and keep your expectations realistic.
I have looked at several Latin programs over the years in an attempt to find "fun" or more doable. What I found was surprising. I could find fun, and I could even find other worthwhile programs, but nothing succeeds at teaching Latin from the basics forward in such a thorough way as Latina Christiana (Memoria Press).
So, having said that, I wouldn't look around to other programs. At least, I can say that in retrospect. It's a waste of time and money and more than that, it prevents you from that slow-and-steady plugging away which is necessary for Latin success.
What I do recommend is saving up for that DVD that accompanies LC I as soon as it fits in your budget!!! Do NOT expect glam or bells and frills! Do expect to undrrstand the lessons more thoroughly! I can teach Latin on my own now, but when my first went through the program I was utterly lost without it! That DVD saved us and helped ME understand! We got stuck, much like you, around the third lesson. Once I got the DVDs, we were able to move forward again.
Hope something here helps you in knowing how you want to move forward! I'm very happy to answer more questions if you have them, Cassie! 
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pumpkinmom
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Thank you Jen!
Yes, you stated every reason why I want my boys to learn Latin!! Your post is very helpful.
Working on Latin daily is a struggle for us. We are doing the bulk of the work on Tuesday afternoons and spending 45-60 minutes on a lesson. Then we are reviewing about 15 minutes another two days a week. This isn't enough (and Tuesday is too long)! I need to tweak our schedule a little more to fit it in every day. I think time is our number one struggle at the moment, but I think I can work it out though.
I see taking three weeks may need to happen. I will also give up on the idea that we will finish this book in a year.
Off to list some books to sell to our local homeschool group to have money to buy the dvds! 
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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Erica Sanchez
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Thank for this, Jen! Printing.
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LLMom
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To help memorize vocabulary, declensions, and conjugations, you might try some Latin games.
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Lisa
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Willa
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I use Quizlet a lot, mostly the Scatter game. There is an app you can get for the smartphone or you can do it on the computer. There is also an option to print out quizzes or do them online.
A LOT of repetition is often necessary to get that grammar and vocabulary down well as you get further into the program, but Jen is right -- even getting halfway through LC1 and really knowing it will give the kid a head start in so many ways.
My kids all benefited hugely from even the bits and pieces of Latin we managed during our most chaotic years of homeschooling, and 2 of them went on to do well in Latin in college.
LC is a good program, not very many frills, but simple and clear. I bought the review workbook and Ludere Latina as well as the basic book, because I wanted to have the option of reviewing past what the workbook alone offers.
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pumpkinmom
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I finally think I have some questions! I've been back to read this thread a few times this week and I intended to ask questions, but I always give up in frustration.
We have yet to start Latin back up. (Still waiting to purchase the DVDs.) I'm not completely sure how to do Latin separate. My oldest will need to move at a faster pace than my youngest. My youngest has time to take it slow and I want to take it slow. My oldest will be starting 8th grade come August. I feel a little rushed with him. I could start it with him during our summer term (a short three weeks in June-we do half days 4 days a week). This would get him about two lesson ahead of his brother. I would start the youngest in August. Is this realistic? I say yes one day and no the other. Some days I say forget it all together! They have no interest is doing Latin again and they aren't afraid to tell me either. 
Any words of wisdom to convince them that this is a worthy thing to learn?
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Cassie
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SallyT
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If it's important to you -- i.e. part of your definition of "an educated person" is "a person with Latin literacy" -- then I'm not sure that convincing them is even relevant. My kids gripe about math, but not learning it isn't an option, so I don't treat it as one. That doesn't stop the griping, but they have kind of swallowed the line that it's non-negotiable.
I'm starting Latin next year with my two youngest, who'll be in 5th and 6th grades, and I anticipate pushback. In fact, I know they're going to hate the idea. But -- well, it's what we're doing (this is my answer to many things: "Sorry you don't like it, but it's what we're doing right now." My other answer is: "Because this is what educated people learn. End of discussion.").
I am doing it separately with them, despite their closeness in age, for a variety of reasons, the main one being that it is truly just easier to deal with each of them one-on-one. The rising 6th grader will be doing Henle -- because we have it, I like it and feel pretty confident that we can master it together, and my Latin-linguistics-scholar daughter whose favorite book it is is only a phone call away if we need help. The rising 5th grader will begin in Minimus, the fun little Cambridge Latin series, then move to Latina Christiana.
The rising 6th grader will be an "old" 6th grader, by the way -- he turns 12 this summer -- and I think will not love, but will respond well, to the structure of Henle. The rising 5th grader will still be only 10, and I want very short lessons for her. I'm just scheduling Latin in as part of their tablework for next year. Typically I have one of them doing his/her independent reading while the other one works on math, copywork, etc, as I help or hover, depending. That is the beauty of having them completely separated (though we do do some hands-on things together) -- I can flip their routines so that one is always occupied independently when the other one needs my attention. This kind of schedule has probably been the single best thing about the current school year.
Anyway, if you want them to do Latin, I think it's perfectly ok and valid to say, "You are doing this because *I* believe it's important for your education. You don't have to like it, but you do have to do it." You're never going to "convince" them -- that they'll let you know, anyway. They may or may not come back and thank you later; they're certainly not going to thank you now, so you just have to get on with it and shut your ears to the protests.
(Here is where I'd insert my little rant about "to love learning" as a self-defeating goal to have in a homeschool, but I'll spare everyone that this time!).
And for encouragement: my linguistically-minded daughter *fought* my attempts to do Latin with her in elementary and middle school. She hated it, it was stupid, blah blah blah. So, in high school (with teachers other than myself), it was her favorite thing ever, and she still translates for fun. She also says that even the smatterings we were able to do during our own more chaotic years were unbelievably helpful as a basis for further learning. She had no idea how much Latin she actually knew, when she started to do it more seriously, but a lot came back that she didn't remember learning in the first place. She also, in high school, hated Beowulf and Anglo-Saxon literature, and now that's her favorite college thing. I have thus learned to take people's "I hate this stupid stuff and I'll never ever use it" remarks with a very, very large grain of salt.
So, be brave! Keep calm and carry on! That's my advice.
Sally
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SallyT
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Oh, I'd also say: don't be afraid to do it in tiny little increments daily. I wouldn't worry about doing a whole lesson at a sitting, if it seems like too much. If you have to start with five-minute sessions, do that, and gradually increase. If it takes two years to do LC I, fine. Take as long as it takes. The "you have to do this" pill does go down easier if initially the pill isn't that big.
Sally
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SallyT
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Hm, on rereading Jen's excellent post, I may back up and begin my rising 6th-er in LC next year, rather than in Henle. That seems like very wise counsel. I still think I'll run the rising 5th-er through Minimus before beginning LC, however.
Sally (who appreciates the opportunity to think these things through)
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Nodding along as I read Sally's responses.
** Latin is a discipline. Children don't *LOVE* everything on their daily schedule. I don't *LOVE* everything on my daily schedule. I do some things out of discipline. Giving children an opportunity to rant tends to nurture discontent and complaining so I don't listen to rants or complaining about any subject. I DO accept that Latin isn't a favorite or preferred subject and I don't mind it if they let me know that. Totally fine with me! But it's a non-negotiable.
** Regarding pace --> Latin is a lot like Algebra. In terms of mastery: you get there when you get there. You can plan to complete LCI in a year, but it does absolutely no good to zing a kid through Latin without thorough mastery of the lesson prior...in exactly the same way that it does no good to move forward in Algebra if you've missed a concept. Whether you feel under the gun or rushed will, I'm afraid, have no bearing on your oldest son's ability to retain and master Latin. So, he may move quickly, or he might need a couple of years. EVEN if he takes 2 years to complete LCI, he could start Henle 1 in 10th, and possibly even finish up Henle II by his senior year. That's a GREAT Latin repertoire for high school! So...I guess I wouldn't stress over the pace right now! It will work itself out on its own and it's gonna be whatever it's gonna be.
** Get your tools/DVDs together and give yourself a few weeks to set a good, reasonable, consistent pace with Latin so you can get in a good groove in terms of how long it takes to complete a lesson. Until you can do that, I suspect the "living it out" part will remain somewhat nebulous just because a lot of your questions will need to resolve themselves as you brainstorm through them as part of the every-day.
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Jen Mackintosh
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CrunchyMom
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SallyT wrote:
Hm, on rereading Jen's excellent post, I may back up and begin my rising 6th-er in LC next year, rather than in Henle. That seems like very wise counsel. I still think I'll run the rising 5th-er through Minimus before beginning LC, however.
Sally (who appreciates the opportunity to think these things through) |
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While I haven't done this yet myself, if you want a supplement to Henle, you might consider Visual Latin. There are free plans available for coordinating the lessons from Henle with the videos. I can't tell you how much my boys like these. My oldest is the only one studying Latin formally, but the other two just look on because they enjoy the instructor so much! My plan is to have ds1 finish up with the VL program as written (end of next year or perhaps more since it is getting harder, and we might need more time to go through Year 2 at his age), and then we will begin working through Henle using the videos again, which would have him starting Henle in roughly 6th grade, though the teacher prefers Lingua Latina, so I might change my mind. I have time Anyway, you could check out the sample lessons and the coordinating plans (all free) since you already have Henle and like it.
We have the Minimus student book, and he reads those stories as a supplement once a week since the comics are fun and the history provides context, and he completes the lessons there, but we do not have the supplementary materials, so I can't really speak about the program as a whole. I do think that ds got a sound foundation from Getting Started With Latin (last year) that has served him well this year, but if I recall past posts, you already have Minimus that you used informally with your older children?
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CrunchyMom
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Can I just say how much I love you ladies for having discussions like these? All that has been bouncing around in my head, and it is so nice to "hear" it outside  Dh's eyes start to glaze over a bit when I start rambling about lesson plans , and most of my local friends follow a curriculum and do not face such questions!
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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pumpkinmom
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I truly know he won't finish it in a year and feeling rushed is not the approach we need to take. Yet, I still feel rushed because I worry that it's not a high school program and it may not look too great on a transcript. Which isn't the right way to look at it either. It just hard to ignore that. In my mind the programs content is equal to what my first year foreign language course was in high school. I know this! And I need to ignore those negative feelings.
I'm not well this week and sitting around and trying to relax and get better really has my mind thinking about school planning and I'm not confident in our homeschool at the moment. I'm questioning everything!
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Cassie
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SallyT
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I know what you mean, Lindsay! Everyone I know locally does Seton or some other complete program, so it's like I'm speaking Swahili when I try to describe what we do.
I do really like Henle, I have to say. I find it totally clear from page one: the explanation of declension is so completely crystalline. And then I look at LCI, and see that the first workbook exercise asks the student to say that each Latin verb contains a pronoun, but I can't see, from the LC teacher's materials, where exactly the student is supposed to learn this. In Henle it's right. there. Spelled. out. I can totally see that it was with Henle that the light went on for my daughter . . . and I am reminded why I was thinking it a good choice even for a 6th grader, working together with me.
I don't have the supplemental materials for Minimus, either -- just the book itself, which my kids have always thought was great fun. I was thinking that she could spend a semester with it, learning (or re-learning, since we have played with it before) vocabulary and basic parts of speech, before moving into something more structured. She'll also be reading Roman history next year, so it seems like a nice dovetail.
Sally
PS -- and thanks for the reminder about Visual Latin. I'd looked at those videos some time ago and then forgotten about them. This might be just the ticket for my oh-so-goofy pre-teen son.
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SallyT
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Cassie, some years ago our former parish priest taught a Latin course using LC 1, and a number of homeschool high-schoolers took it. I think they were counting 1 and 2 as "Latin 1," which is okay, though I can easily see just LC 1 counting . . . I don't think I learned that much in Latin 1!
On a transcript, I would just put "Latin 1" and the credit in the year he finishes it. Unless a college wants a narrative transcript with a booklist, you don't have to say what you used, or describe a time frame in any kind of detail. So I'd just translate whatever I did into as standard and understandable a form as possible while still telling the truth (truth: he did finish Latin 1 in Grade 10, or whenever), and leave it at that.
Sally
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pumpkinmom wrote:
| I'm not confident in our homeschool at the moment. I'm questioning everything! |
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Oh dear! Well that can be good...as long as you're careful not to let that prompt you to make huge changes in a knee-jerk-reactionary sort of way...or become paralyzed in indecision! But sometimes stepping back and questioning how things are working/would work...can be REALLY fruitful! It has been for me in the past, anyway! So...don't knock it too much! It sort of feels upside down - just because I think we like things settled and moving forward. But, I think those "upside down" times can prompt some really good and thoughtful change, too!
And just like Sally, I'd simply list it as Latin I on a transcript. In fact, I'm pretty sure my senior *was* finishing LC in her freshman year and then immediately rolling into Henle...and I just called it, "Latin I."
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Thanks Jen and Sally!  
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Cassie
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Mackfam
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Right back at ya!
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Jen Mackintosh
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| Can I just say how much I love you ladies for having discussions like these? All that has been bouncing around in my head, and it is so nice to "hear" it outside Dh's eyes start to glaze over a bit when I start rambling about lesson plans , and most of my local friends follow a curriculum and do not face such questions! |
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4Real Forums : Across Time and Place
Topic: Is Latin is too hard for my boys?
