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Mrs. B
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| Posted: April 09 2015 at 6:41pm | IP Logged
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My 13 year dd is having quite the difficult time with math. (and with many other things this year...) She's been in saxon 8/7 for two years and is only on lesson 70. We did the placement test and she scored well enough for this book- so we thought she could do it o.k. After a while, it was very obvious that she had huge holes in her understanding, still hadn't memorized math facts and basic operations like division...so I thought ok I have to be with her for her math lessons. The painful part of this is that she can't remember things very well- so going back and looking up how to do the problems is taking hours and hours and I'm at the point where I can't handle this anymore. It's too exhausting to sit with her and coach her through each problem like this. We've been doing it this way all year and still have hardly made progress at all. I wish now we had put her in 6/5 or 7/6, but I didn't know people did that. (Putting them slightly lower so they will have more confidence and can work more independently.)
So now what do I do? Should she continue with this math 8/7 for another year or should we switch to something else? I do have my eye on a online curricula (mathhelp.com) but I'm not certain if I should just finish this school year in 8/7 doing as much as we can, and then giving up on the rest. How important is finishing this book? If we don't finish it- how will the math be next year even if I use an online curricula? I just don't want to set her back even further. I don't want to battle with her anymore. I really do need the math lessons to go smoother-because there is so much else going on in our lives, and this is making me wish I had never heard of homeschooling. (ironic because I was homeschooled and I did use saxon math myself so I understand how the lessons are.) I think she finds the amount of problems and the repetition to be an obstacle actually. She has adhd and dyslexia-I think the sheer number of problems and even the slowness of the dive cd is hard for her and even hard on her brain. She is very tired at the end of a lesson, enough so that she has to go away and do something else that is not school related.
Right now for the rest of the school year until June- I am thinking of letting her use a calculator to eliminate some of the brain fatigue, doing the new problems but only doing a few of the review problems for each lesson. I had wanted her to do 4 lessons a week but I think that's far too much work for her.
I guess I could use some ideas on how to finish this year and considerations for the next. If you have any good ideas on how to work with difficult students I'd appreciate hearing them, too. I hope I haven't been too negative-but it's really something I've been feeling quite a lot of anxiety over, and I feel like I have made the dumbest and biggest mistakes with her.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 8:37am | IP Logged
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I think the best thing you can do for a child that struggles it to get them into something that will help them sooner rather than later. Sure there's benefit to completing what you've started but there's also an amazing benefit for a child to see you admit that something is not working and to move onto a different program, so not giving up on the materials just the method, to make it work better.
I've also had a child that we've done half lessons each day rather than trying to plow through full lessons. Half a lesson she could do but a full lesson she'd get bogged down.. it wasn't that the material was too difficult it was that the length of time was too much.
If you can't or don't want to change books.. Then I'd reduce the length of the lesson. She may even be able to handle doing half a lesson in the morning and half in the afternoon but I'd see how a half lesson goes first.. and might also consider doing the memory work on basic operations separate from the math lessons.. so maybe instead of two half lessons, she's does a half lesson of math and then a session of memory work. And allow the calculator.
I also found that with my child that would get so frustrated dealing with fractions I'd just give her a "cheat sheet" that laid out the rules for adding/subtracting or multiplying or dividing fractions. When she could just look at that then she could work the problems without locking up because "oh no it's a fraction" and then the more she was able to do the less of a problem doing them were. If you're worried about testing because of using this method, just teach her to write down the rules first thing on her scratch paper.. once you're in a test you can write anything on the scratch paper and it can be much easier to do that rather than worry about remembering.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 2:47pm | IP Logged
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I would stop 8/7 right away. I would back her up to 7/6 and even consider going way back to 6/5, depending on where you think she is.
I think Saxon is AWESOME for kids like this! But, they have to be working at a do-able level. It sounds like your daughter is way in over her head. This is totally one of the benefits of homeschooling....we can meet our kids where they are at, so they can succeed.
At the end of a homeschooling career, I would rather have a child who is fluent in "basic math" and only have made it through Algebra I or II, than a kid who is getting C-D grades and in Calculus, and can't calculate sales tax in their head. 
I would put her in something that she can do independently with coming to you very occasionally. At 13, I wouldn't want her to be needing me, even if you DO HAVE the time, which is sounds like you don't. I would want her to work independently doing her math with occasional questions. If this is not the case, then I would back her up to the level where this is possible. She will gain confidence this way, as well as alleviating tension and your relationship with her.
She "should" be able to do the 6/5 lessons in about 25 minutes. And, yes, I would make her do all of the problems...don't let her skip! This creates her fluency.
I wouldn't hesitate to back her up to even 6/5. If she cruises through the material and it's super easy, then GREAT....have her do 2 lessons / day. She will complete 6/5 in a few months and have gained TONS of fluency with it!
I would not let a calulator come into play.
I had a similar situation last Nov. with my 13 yo. Here is what we did:
:: Backed up to 6/5. She tested borderline "7/6" but I needed her to be completely independent, so I wasn't talking any chances. Her 12 year old sister had just started 8/7, and her 11yo sister was doing 6/5...so 13 yo balked and whined and complained. We told her we "understood" and then told her to get her big-girl-panties on and MOVE ON and GET OVER IT!  She was doing 6/5 and that was the end of THAT!
:: We followed the Saxon program exactly. She does the FACTS Practice. Absolutely did not skip this. And, she is supposed to do the Mental Math warm up. 2/week, my husband or I do it with her. We can tell when she stops doing it, b/c she gets slower. I now put it on her checklist that she must check off to make sure it gets done.
:: She does ALL the review probs. We don't skip a single one. The review questions helped her realize that "this is do-able" and "I know this stuff!" She gained confidence and fluency.
:: The lessons really only took about 20-25 minutes. So, after about a month, she started doing 2 lessons / day. Separating the lessons. One during school hours. One at night. Sometimes she gets the second one done in the afternoon, rather than at night.
:: No more than 20-25 minutes of work at a time. She sets a timer for 20 min. and stops no matter where she is. If she isn't finished, she continues on LATER where she left off for another 20 min. Or if she's almost finished and WANTS to complete the lesson, that's fine.
:: We require EIGHT 25-min-sessions of math / week. Preferable 10, but we'll live with 8.
:: She sits somewhere quiet, puts a "don't disturb" sign on the door. Everyone knows not to interrupt.
:: She clears off the work surface where she is working.
:: Any test that is less than 80%, she has to re-do. But, so far that hasn't happened at all.
:: If she needs help with something, she writes it on the white board and I help her when I can. Or when my husband is in town, he helps her.
:: She corrects her own lessons and writes the score at the top of the page in MARKER. Anything less than 80 is a re-do. I go through and spot check or occasionally ask her to show me what she's working on.
:: I correct tests. She records her test scores in my binder.
:: I glance at the upcoming lessons to know what the next week's work is.
:: We don't use a video. So far, no need.
:: DH became the official "math person." He is in charge of making sure she is DOING what she is supposed to be doing.
:: We have a 2 month summer break where we do "modified summer schedule" and she will continue with Math for sure. Maybe less lessons/week, but def. continue on with it. She actually WANTS to continue and not stop!
She just turned 14 and is just getting ready to start 7/6 and totally does NOT dread math anymore,  is getting fairly fluent at "mental math," is naturally figuring things in her head more than before, and follows math concepts WAY more than a year ago.
And, she is completely independent with her math and making progress, which is SO GOOD, because I have SIX OTHER children who also need my attention!
Will she be enrolling in an online-advanced-calculus class at the age of 17? I highly doubt it. But, that's totally fine!
So, 14 yo in 6/5 & 7/6....ideal? Probably not, but so necessary!
Also, have you read Art Reed's book?? It's a quick read, and if you haven't already, I think it's totally worthwhile.
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Suzanne in ID
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Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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Marie
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 3:57pm | IP Logged
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Suzanne, thank you! Not my question but I so appreciated the answers anyway. I amazed she can get a whole lesson done in 20 or so minutes. Do you stop her if she is not?
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~Marie
DS 2005, DD 2007, DD 2009 and a new little DS 2011 DS 2014
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pumpkinmom
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 3:58pm | IP Logged
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I didn't have time to read the other responses but I have a similiar student. Work on basic math facts and that only for a couple of weeks. Then start back with Saxon (lower level) and keep working on basic math facts. You just can't do the work involved in 8/7 if you can't do basic math facts. It takes forever to do a problem! I know this because I have this student! We use Xtra Math because it's easy to use and free. I also let him use a calculator with Saxon 8/7. I didn't let him use a calculator until he could do long division on paper and multiply large numbers on paper. This has saved a bunch of time with Saxon!
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 4:27pm | IP Logged
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Marie wrote:
| Not my question but I so appreciated the answers anyway. I amazed she can get a whole lesson done in 20 or so minutes. |
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This was after a month of it taking longer. She built up to it in a month or so. Because she HAS done these concepts before, they just weren't solidified. In just a month of continued review, it got easier and faster.
And, honestly not ALL lessons are that fast....but a lot of them are now!
Marie wrote:
| Do you stop her if she is not? |
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20 min is just to tell her she CAN stop if she wants to. And, go back later. It's just to help her really concentrate for 20 min. It's more manageable for kids like this. Short lessons. If she wants to go longer that's totally fine! And, she does now.....but at the beginning....never!
I made her stop at the beginning, so she realized I wasn't asking for the moon. Then after a couple months, I realized she was naturally concentrating and gauging herself more...which, ultimately is the goal.
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Suzanne in ID
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 4:37pm | IP Logged
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SuzanneG wrote:
| She "should" be able to do the 6/5 lessons in about 25 minutes. |
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...just to clarify...I'm saying that an older child who is doing 6/5 to really "back them up" to create fluency and solidify those concepts will do a lesson in 25 minutes.
Most "average kids" working AT their grade level, who are being challenged (but not overwhelmed) will take longer to do a 6/5 Saxon lesson. It takes my 11 yo (5th grader) about 30-45 minutes to do a 6/5 lesson.
So, just clarifying so people reading this don't start freaking out b/c they aren't doing a Saxon lesson in 25 minutes! We are talking about a specail situation in this case.
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Suzanne in ID
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 5:30pm | IP Logged
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I'm not using this program so I'm so glad that Suzanne chimed in.
Yes, this type of child may be older but trying to maintain attention for longer than about 30 minutes is an effort in futility. You help them by keeping the time short so that they stop before they get tired/frustrated and can't think (yes, actually can't). And then as they gain success they will be able to continue for longer periods of time. But really they aren't learning a thing and can't remember what they know when the lesson goes longer.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Mrs. B
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 6:21pm | IP Logged
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I'm appreciating the replies and ideas. I will have to show my hubby this thread so we can talk about it. I am going to give her a drill sheet to help determine just where she is at with the math facts.
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~ * mama to a houseful~ *
dd-10, ds-8, dd-5, ds-2
and a bunch of rabbits, a pack of dogs, a clowder of cats, and some fish.
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pumpkinmom
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 9:02pm | IP Logged
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Xtra Math will test them first in addition and then they will work on what is missed until 100%. Then it moves to subtraction and does the same . . . then multiplication . . . . then division. You can also set it to work on which of those you want the student to do.
ALEKS maybe helpful as it test the student first and goes from there. Meets the student where they are. I was going to go this route until I figured out Saxon 8/7 was right where my struggling math student needed to be (I didn't want to online program unless I had no other choice.)
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
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Marie
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| Posted: April 10 2015 at 11:26pm | IP Logged
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Suzanne G wrote:
Marie wrote:
| Do you stop her if she is not? |
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20 min is just to tell her she CAN stop if she wants to. And, go back later. It's just to help her really concentrate for 20 min. It's more manageable for kids like this. Short lessons. If she wants to go longer that's totally fine! And, she does now.....but at the beginning....never!
I made her stop at the beginning, so she realized I wasn't asking for the moon. Then after a couple months, I realized she was naturally concentrating and gauging herself more...which, ultimately is the goal. |
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I really like this idea and have one who it would really work . My second gets so distracted doing anything! Nice to hear experience with saxon. We've really enjoyed 5/4 this year although it does take him about an hour for all parts.
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~Marie
DS 2005, DD 2007, DD 2009 and a new little DS 2011 DS 2014
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cvbmom
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| Posted: April 11 2015 at 6:39am | IP Logged
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I don't have a lot of time right mow, but using Math Essentiails from www.mathessentials.net has helped my oldest two tremendously! I love their simplicity, short review section, and philosophy. Their prices are quite reasonable, too. No complaints about math here anymore 
Christine
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Difficult student
