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DianaC
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| Posted: Jan 21 2010 at 12:41pm | IP Logged
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can you give some recommendations on programs for us to consider?
My dd is 9 and finishing up Saxon 5/4. This is our 3rd year with Saxon and although she started out claiming that math was her favorite subject (it comes easily to her), now she is terribly bored. She does like the "Investigations" and has said that she wishes that all of the math lessons were like that - a more hands-on approach.
Our caveat is that although she grasps things easily, she does not retain information, so lots of review is needed.
Which programs may offer this combination of a hands-on approach with much needed review????
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Tina P.
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| Posted: Jan 22 2010 at 10:30am | IP Logged
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I don't know about "hands-on," but a program that we FINALLY are sticking with is Teaching Textbooks. The lecture is interesting and varied and she can watch the computer at the same time. There's tons of review as well as "hints" on problems with newer concepts. And if you get the whole package, the book has plenty of review. You can also test her into a grade on the site.
If you need something to keep her mind and hands busy at the same time, I would have to recommend a math game day, maybe mid week to break up the monotony.
Teaching Textbooks
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 22 2010 at 6:31pm | IP Logged
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Dianne:
I have used a ton of different programs with different people at different times. Most have changed significantly from when I used them. To choose, I think I'd ask myself a few questions first:
How do my children learn best? Big picture, words, numbers, examples, Also, how do I learn - if I'm going to be explaining it and don't feel super confident in the subject, then the text/TM combination must be in a style that makes it easy for me to pick it up and explain it. If I am totally math phobic, then maybe I need to look at a total DVD program.
How do I learn? How confident am I with math?
How systematic is the text - math simply must be systematic and I've been sorely disappointed with how so many modern math texts try to jump all over the place and forget to tell you things? They are often anything but systematic.
How easy is it for me to use and grade? Does it have a solutions manual (even if you can figure out every single problem in the books, it saves lots of time which usually translates into older children being willing to let you help from time to time)? The most important aspect of math teaching is the daily feedback. Catching little things (for instance, if the problems in the text are all really easy, you will never know if they really have the long division completely down - what about when 0 is being used in the middle of the answer as a place holder? You want problems like this to come up in their homework because you want to catch and explain any small misunderstandings early. Saxon has all these kinds of problems in them - and glancing at the solutions manual, I can make sure I don't skip assigning them without having to do every single problem myself.
Is math a strength or weakness of mine or the children? It will make a difference somewhat. Because it is a strength of mine, I am confident in choosing problems so we don't have to do every single one if it is obvious that the child really gets it and retains it. I also want my big picture learners who are great at math and doing it in their head to actually know how to systematically approach a bigger and more difficult problem. I can use Saxon either way as long as I give the big picture to begin with. I can usually make up hands on things to do off the top of my head - or grab manipulatives I have in my house to illustrate a concept. If I didn't have the math tutoring experience, then maybe I'd want something with more whys in it and something that connects the various parts. With math, you have to teach a systematic approach - logical and sequential. Jumping around because you don't remember why you did something and how yeah that is it - that tends to confuse some children unbelievably. My big picture learners need guidance in being systematic and they need a concept in overview first. Systematic, step by step logical folks need to be guided to see the connections and not just blindly do the steps. Everyone needs to apply what they are learning to real life and learn simple strategies for making math easy for them - a simple, short, systematic problem solving. (Why is it that you do this factoring here and something else over here. There are reasons you will use one approach over another - also in terms of combining/simplifying - why do you sometimes bring those neg. exponents up and why do you sometimes let them be? When do you expand and combine, when do you cancel out terms and ....? Often in these things there are very small confusions that are easily cleared up - unless they spend weeks and weeks frustrated and confused and getting problems all wrong.
How easy is it for me to explain or show concepts and connect to real life? Can I easily add this in with materials I have on hand or is this in the text?
Do I know the math vocab or will I have to look it all up? If my folks are big word learners, then maybe a text like Foersters is more appropriate (I actually thought I loved it at first - I'm a systematic word learner. My dc floundered totally in it. Saxon has worked with all mine as long as I provide a few supplements based on their needs and learning style.(except 1 who just bogged down with all the problems, no explanations and he doesn't like me showing or introducing anything to him - we let him do a different text for Alg I to get the idea down. I'm probably going to see if we can try Saxon again because my experience with other texts is that my dc just don't retain as much long term.)
What about rules - conventions like writing Algebra from highest to lowest power in alphabetical order and why mathematicians chose to do that. ETc.
Every program we have used has some strengths and weaknesses. We have settled into a plan for our family, I believe (but this plan is selected because of my own strengths and weaknesses and my own children's needs) which is:
K - hands on, manipulatives, games, setting the table, real life learning . No text. For a really gifted math child, I might pull out my old Math their Way from Addison Wesley or Miquon math sheets for fun but only if the child were persistantly begging for written work.
1 - 3 mostly hands on, real life math but with a simple workbook that connects this with some mental math and math thinking - and this also means that on a crazy day, they will have something to do and that we make sure that we haven't overlooked anything in our games, etc. (I use Singapore with mine, but mostly we chose this due to print size, no busy, crowded pages with small problems crammed one right after the other on the page and the fact that the workbooks were so thin, they didn't intimidate.) I supplement as needed with Developmental Math or Al Abacus and take some breaks from the workbook for drill with math facts - in fun ways. (My visual learners need to be able to build pictures in their head and I don't want them just memorizing numbers and methodology without having a good sense of what it all means and a picture of this meaning in their heads.
(I should note that when I say take short breaks and supplement, is that I tell them we are going to practice a few things for a while, I take up the math workbook we've been using, we use whatever supplement which may include presentations from me, hands on stuff, practice sheets, practice using manipulatives, another text with some practice problems. We do this until I think the concept is solidified, then we go back to Singapore and continue where we left off. I generally tell my dc a set amount of time to spend on math - depending on their ages and then I know the pace - but I also know if they are bogging down on something. If something is taking too long, there is a reason - either math facts are not solid, the concept isn't clearly understand, there is a missing connection that needs to be made, the child needs more practice and to slow down or the eyes are more far sighted and we need to do something hands on until we can get eyes re-examined.
4th/5th - whenever they are ready for Algebra - I am going back to Saxon but I don't follow the Saxon materials like a slave. I know Saxon says you should do every book in the series and every problem. I have not done this with any of my children - even those who did Saxon from early on until now. (I tutored math from high school on and developed a sense of potential problem areas; I also know how to explain the why which Saxon doesn't do very well. Saxon does an excellent job of showing how to do the problems each step at a time. My dc, we have discovered, just get bogged down with wordy texts. Saxon is not wordy but actually very visual. You do have to make the real life connection for the child and be able to give the big picture. I can do this very easily. Saxon also has the easiest AK, solutions manuals for me to use. I have trouble, eye wise, going back and forth in a lot of books AK and Saxon is easy for me. I also, happen to own all the Saxon from back in the day it was about the only thing available to homeschoolers. Mine are mostly hardback so very inexpensive for me to use over and over with a multitude of different children.
Now, I do supplement from time to time - and we will skip texts as well. It all depends on the child and what they are ready for. I have found that the copying from the hardback books is a great thing for my dc once they are fast enough with this skill - because it forces them to show work and do it step by step. It is almost a lesson in attention to detail (which some of mine need) and care. This is something I insist on as they get into upper math, at least.
My favorite Algebra texts are very old and do not have teaching materials with them. If I have a child that clearly just cannot do Saxon, I will allow them to chose Jacobs (since I have it) for Algebra I but I honestly don't think there is quite enough repetition in that text. I like the way they introduce factoring and such better than Saxon so when we hit some of those lessons in Saxon - we temporarily put the book aside, show the big picture from Jacobs or my old text and then go back to Saxon and work the problems explaining that they break this whole concept down into small parts and give you practice doing each part. I've even pulled out MUS to explain the concept - but we don't skip the practice in the Saxon text.
I tend to circle problems based on what kind of mistakes I've seen in my dc work. If they haven't made a mistake in a certain kind of problem in the last 10 lessons, it is pointless to keep reviewing it every single time. We do 1 full lesson before a test. I note any kinds of problems they miss on this, go over these thoroughly with supplemental material if it is a concept issue and those are definitely problems that will be circled for some time. Sometimes we only do the practice problems, if this is major review.
We go slowly through the texts so I'm not worried about whether we finish this year or next. We tend to learn deeply and permanently so there isn't a lot of forgetting from year to year. We will often take Saxon tests through the first part of a text to see where in the book we want to start. This keeps my more gifted math students from getting bored.
I think one mom had a really, really important point and that was not to get in the habit of jumping texts. Each publisher covers concepts in slightly different manners and orders so doing a lot of switching back and forth in terms of main program, can leave a lot of gaps. Otherwise the text is not nearly as important as the consistent going over of work. Mine do better if I grade it and then discuss it with them though they are all capable of grading their own, I find it a great exercise in making them find their own errors. This way they really learn it and aren't just looking at the AK and saying - oh yeah, I know that.
Oh, I have used:
Addison Wesley - Math Their Way (for younger children)
Miquon Math
Singapore math (1 - 6)
Saxon (3 - Advanced Math)
Math U See (older edition but went through the Advanced level)
Jacob's Algebra
Jacob's Geometry
Geometry for Enjoyment and Challenge
HM Geometry
Foersters Algebra II/Trig (I haven't actually used this for a course. We tried it with one child for about a week and realized it was a very poor fit for her. I now have it as a reference).
I have 6 children, so I have been mostly consistent with each child - just different things became available with different children and we tried them.
We do not do well with video/DVD presentations for the most part, so Math - U - See was very hard for us to use, but I loved the ideas in it on how to present some things and have the manipulatives and use them a lot. I often will present a concept overview using MUS method -or something like that, but then do the work in whatever text we have chosen to work through with children. When we make changes, it is generally at normal break points - between elementary and more middle school math, between middle and high school math. At these points, you are not as likely to miss as much by switching. OF course, if something is a horrible fit, and it is obvious you have to do something - well you do what you have to do.
If you want me to look at any one of the texts more carefully, I'd be willing to - just might have to be piece meal.
If at all possible, borrow from a friend and just look closely at something before you decide.
Janet
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DianaC
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| Posted: Jan 28 2010 at 10:07pm | IP Logged
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Thank-you for the thorough replies!
My daughter and I went to our local homeschool store and looked through a few different books.
She didn't like the cartoon-y look of Horizons.
She thought she liked the Abeka book, but when we compared what the lessons were like, they were really very similar to Saxon.
She also thought that the MCP looked too much like Saxon.
They didn't have Teaching Textbooks or Math-u-see, but she doesn't think she'd like having math lessons from the computer.
We need a more hands-on approach (compared to Saxon) with lots of review - any other recommendations that we should look for?
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Jan 29 2010 at 6:45am | IP Logged
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Shiller math is hands on. But not a lot of review. You have to do that yourself. We ended up switching to Singapore but still use the Shiller and it's manipulatives to "show" concepts. I also have a few cheapo math workbooks to further solidify concepts if needed. You might want to find a "spine", maybe Saxon, and add in. I don't like it but have found having more than one option helps.
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Anne, married to dh 16 years!, ds,(97), Little One (02), and dd (02).
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 29 2010 at 9:10am | IP Logged
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Miquon math is very hands on - but consistent workbook using manipulatives. Your daughter might really like this one. It really isn't an expensive program - except for the manipulatives, but then you will use these over and over, every year with different children even if just to present a new idea once. It is not overly busy with pictures - but does have a two tone color to highlight things. It also lends itself to doing a lot of hands on stuff without writing and then having sheets for practice. I've seen folks in the Montessori style use these perforated pages to put out with a particular manipulative and do math in a more Montessori style with this program.
Developmental Math is very dry - but a very concrete way to present things with plenty of practice. It actually makes a great supplemental practice program because each level is focused on one thing - so level 11 is working on borrowing and carrying in subtraction and addition. It is very inexpensive,too, so that would help. It might work as an inexpensive supplement to a more hands on program, if you went with something manipulative that needed more practice.
(Any of the manipulative based programs - the manipulatives themselves are often worth the price of the program. So for instance, I do have MUS and we used it one year for one child who just couldn't "get math". We were not great with it because using a video just didn't work very well with us. However, in that time and with the TM, I was able to figure out how to use the manipulatives to show concepts. They have the absolute best way I've ever seen of explaining fractions. I have never, ever referred to the video since that one year. However, I have used those manipulatives every single year with more than one child. Occassionally I refer back to the TM to get the picture of how they present something like long division (they don't teach the short cut but let the child discover it after writing out and keeping track of all the place values. It was the only way one of my children could grasp long division.) I have never felt like I wasted my money on this just because of the outside the box ideas for presenting concepts and the manipulatives. My version is very old and organized in a manner easy to use as a supplement. I'm not sure how the newer editions are organized - sorry.
Janet
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SylviaB
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| Posted: Jan 29 2010 at 10:20am | IP Logged
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What about Rightstart Math, it uses a LOT of maniuplatives, games, etc....
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SeaStar
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| Posted: Jan 29 2010 at 11:10am | IP Logged
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SylviaB wrote:
| What about Rightstart Math, it uses a LOT of maniuplatives, games, etc.... |
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I second Rightstart. There is a lot of review built into each lesson, also.
It is very easy to go at your own pace with this program. Lots of hands on and games.
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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pmeilaen
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| Posted: Jan 30 2010 at 6:24am | IP Logged
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We're using Making Math Meaningful to create main lessons in combination with a mix of
RightStart Math
Key to Series
Miquon Math
Singapore Math
Math Mammoth.
To find a good math program for your child I highly recommend the learning style test from Mercy Academy.
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Eva
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Jan 30 2010 at 7:12am | IP Logged
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pmeilaen wrote:
To find a good math program for your child I highly recommend the learning style test from Mercy Academy. |
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I can second this testing for homeschooling as a whole. It really helped me set things up for ds in about 3rd grade and made my life so much easier.
It works!!
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Anne, married to dh 16 years!, ds,(97), Little One (02), and dd (02).
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AtHomeScience
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| Posted: Jan 30 2010 at 10:52am | IP Logged
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We started using Alpha Omega Lifepaks way back when, and Ds#1 hated them. We then changed to Math-U-See which ds#1 liked better until he got to the end of delta, and then he hated that, too. And I didn't like it either because I realized that in these programs you basically learn algorithms and then practice them on what I consider rapidly-progessing difficulty.
I switched to MEP a year ago and I have been thoroughly satisfied--as have all three of my boys--since. I like it because it teaches concepts at very basic levels and then puts them to use in a wide variety of ways until you master it at the simple level. Then gradually, without deliberate identification, the problems get more difficult.
The problems are also not sets of drills--they are tables, logic puzzles, graphic representations of equations, word problems, picture problems, mental math, sequences, and so forth. My kids really like the variety whereas I see it as putting math concepts to work to solve all kinds of problem.
It is very different than all the other programs I have seen, so it is not for everyone--the teacher has to be comfortable with it, too, and this program was really exactly what I was looking for in a pedagogical approach. I am very blessed that the program is free of charge, though I would pay as much as I would for any other program.
Blessings,
Kris
At Home Science
Science of Relations
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drmommy
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| Posted: Feb 01 2010 at 7:58am | IP Logged
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We have had great success with Christian Light Publications (Mennonite Company).
http://www.clp.org/
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: If you've used multiple math programs
