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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 17 2006 at 8:22pm | IP Logged
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I remember a lot of posts about Singapore Math and kind of remember it being recommended for both those that excel at Math and those that struggle. I vaguely recall that many seemed to think it was more "real" than Saxon and did better job conceptually.
Well my ds just told me he really gets tired of Saxon. I think it is the repetition - but I also think it is the way Saxon breaks down the steps into tiny segments without really giving the overview of the concept. He also wants to apply the math to real problems as he learns the concept - not just practice the mechanics.
He is good with Math and seems to have an intuitive feel for the subject. However, the Saxon book explanations will often confuse him - with the long division using 2 digit numbers in the text he was confused. I handed him identical problems - said just do them as best you can and he figured it out just fine within a very short time.
I am seriously considering changing the text we use and as he is just finishing 5/4, I thought now would be a time to investigate. I am familiar and comfortable with Saxon even though I don't particularly like the way they present concepts and would love more real world application/ word type problems.
Would some of you who use Singapore math - and especially if you have tried Saxon too, give me a brief comparison of what you felt were the pluses and minuses of each. How do you determine which level to place them in. How far through math does Singapore Math go? Is it in the same price range as Saxon?
I know I already have Saxon in every level so expense is advantage of Saxon - but I think it would be worth trying something new with this dc if I could be sure that it would be very easy for me to use as well and wouldn't take too long to figure out answer keys, etc. I know I can work problems at that level - but an easy to use answer key saves me tons of time. I also really do like the Saxon tests and how I know exactly when to give them.
I guess one of my biggest concerns is how easy it is for him to use independently - and how easy it is for me to spot check and see where he might be needing my assistance or supplemental work. How easy is it to do this with Singapore Math. What is the print size? How easy are the teacher support materials to use? I really had a hard time with how Jacob's math was set up for the parent and even though I liked the concept presentations better than Saxon, I just couldn't use the text. I have to have something quick and easy for me or the dc don't benefit at all from my help and I know correcting work on a daily basis is the single biggest thing for me to do to help them stay on top.
We have been very schoolish in math - and I know we will be supplementing more next year with living books - but I know I still need a text - I want it to be solid, using traditional math vocabulary but with good concept explanations and examples plus some real world applications.
Thanks,
Janet
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Natalia
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| Posted: Jan 17 2006 at 9:51pm | IP Logged
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Janet,
I have used SM since my dd was in second grade. I am very pleased with it. I think that it teaches them to think mathematically. I have never used Saxon so I can't compare.
A year of SM is divided in two semesters. Each semester consists of a textbook and its corresponding workbook. The textbook introduces the concept, reinforces it and the directs the student to the corresponding excercises in the workbook. Each level has a teacher's manual to go with it. My dd has always done her work independently. I only intervene when she seems to have a problem. I find the teacher's manual easy to use. It has the explanations and the textbook exercises and then the answers for the wkbook exercises are in an apendix.
The teacher's manual has much more to offer than what I use. I only use to check answers. My dd seems to have a good grasp of math. SM also have some material that can be used to complement the textbooks if your child needs more practice. Each level has an Intensive Practice workbook and they also have some wkbooks with Challenging Word Problems that I find excellent.
As far as price goes, my understanding is that the price is a lot cheaper that Saxon.
Regarding how far SM goes: SM publishes several series. They have the Primary Mathematic series that goes up to level 6. Then they have the New Elementary Math that takes were Primary leaves off.
If you go to their website you can print out a placement test to help you place your child.
I got my SM from Sonlight and I know that Sonlight has an excellent math forum in their website where you can ask more specific questions.
I seem to recall that Susan Wise Bauer had a review for SM in her welltrainedmind.com website. I don't have time right now to search for it but if you go to her website I am sure you can find it.
HTH,
Natalia
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 19 2006 at 1:27am | IP Logged
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Natalia,
Thanks so much for your response. Singapore Math looks like just the thing for our boys. I printed the placement tests to give them. Thank you so much!
Janet
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teachingmom
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| Posted: Jan 19 2006 at 1:06pm | IP Logged
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I meant to reply to this earlier, Janet, but didn't have time to do it justice. I just wanted to let you know that we have been using Singapore Math for 5 years now and I really like it. We have never tried Saxon, so I can't compare. When I originally tried it, I figured that it was geared for semesters and was rather inexpensive, so it wouldn't hurt to order a semester's worth and see how it went with my girls. We've been with it ever since.
Also, I don't order the teacher's manuals. I just have an answer book for 1st-3rd grade and one for 4th-6th grade. Since I am a math-oriented person, I don't know if the teacher's manuals would be important for a mom who does not find math so easy.
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Erin
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| Posted: Jan 19 2006 at 2:11pm | IP Logged
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Janet,
You may remember me saying we have just swapped to SM, I am absolutley over the moon with it. And my dh (who is picky, and an accountant really likes it). We have just finished a book with dd12, and I sat and marked it myself without an answer key so I could get a good feel for it. (I needed dh's help  )
Actually that was a really good exercise to do, I realised the benefits of SM. There are many word problems that really require the child to think, some are very lateral. The computations on a page start out easy and quicly progress not leaving the child time to get too comfortable but extending him. Another big benefit is the layout, it is simple, spaced out very well with lots of working out room (for the first time my dd is starting to do her working out on paper and not all in her head) This layout has looked so less intimidating for my ds10 that he now loves maths 
It is not expensive (at least here) I only bought the texts which are about $12Aus and the workbook, $5.50 Aus. For dd12 next book I may buy the $2 answer key, although there is a more expensive one with the working outs for $24. I didn't feel the need for the teacher's book. And believe me I'm not mathematical despite the fact that most of my dc are.
Let us know what you think of the tests. They are much harder than the books appear. Also I'd love to know what you think of them once you've used them.
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hereinantwerp
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| Posted: Jan 24 2006 at 2:58pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
I guess one of my biggest concerns is how easy it is for him to use independently - and how easy it is for me to spot check and see where he might be needing my assistance or supplemental work. How easy is it to do this with Singapore Math. What is the print size? How easy are the teacher support materials to use? I really had a hard time with how Jacob's math was set up for the parent and even though I liked the concept presentations better than Saxon, I just couldn't use the text. I have to have something quick and easy for me or the dc don't benefit at all from my help and I know correcting work on a daily basis is the single biggest thing for me to do to help them stay on top.
We have been very schoolish in math - and I know we will be supplementing more next year with living books - but I know I still need a text - I want it to be solid, using traditional math vocabulary but with good concept explanations and examples plus some real world applications.
Thanks,
Janet |
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I just saw this--
we used SM levels 1-5. I liked it very much at first, but midway through level 5, I got lost. I am NOT good at math. A mom (or dad) who is would probably have no problem. But I found the explanations and introductions of new topics very scanty, often with only one example given so if you didn't understand that you were lost, we were beginning to have to look online for alternative explanations, etc. I just couldn't help my son, and the curriculum was not giving me the help I needed.
Sonlight sells answer keys (very straightforward) for all levels, and is also producing "Home Instructor Guides" or something similarly named, which have more suggestions and ideas (I have not seen these). When I bought the curriculum they only had these in the lower levels, maybe there are more now, and they might have helped me. ? But it sounded more like a scheduling/planning guide.
One thing about Singapore is it is very inexpensive to try out. I also liked that my kids could write in the workbooks (no copying problems). I liked that there was more white space on the page than some math programs, and that the workbook exersizes were "short and sweet". It does not really "drill" like some people like, but there are additional books available for that if you want. It is really not designed to be used independantly. You are supposed to present the lesson and do problems orally first, then the child does the workbook pages on his own. However, because my ds was pretty quick in math he often did use it independantly, and we used the "textbook" more as a reference. Got scolded online for doing that, but . . . it worked for us for a while!
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 27 2006 at 2:07pm | IP Logged
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Thanks all. I thought I'd post an update. I found a local user of Singapore math and she is meeting me at the library to show me her materials - levels 1, 2 and 3. She also mentioned that she was told that you should switch from Singapore to Saxon at some point in the middle school as Saxon prepares them better for standardized tests (not that that is the most important thing in the world - something about number lines and some concepts that Singapore Math doesn't bother with). All of this is sort of hearsay so I was wondering what people who have used it from level 5 on would say.
I am almost sure I'll use it with my 6 yo and 8 yo. I'm not sure about my 11yo who is currently 5th grade and finishing Saxon 5/4. I have thought about looking at the older levels and maybe just getting the book, homeschool manuel and seeing if there are things I can do with Saxon (obviously eliminating some of Saxon's repetition) - sort of weaving the two together and throwing in some living math books.
I am certainly open to ideas that are not super mom intensive (this child hates me working with him - he'd rather be 100% on his own with me just checking the work and answering questions from time to time).
Janet
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Taffy
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ALmom wrote:
| I have thought about looking at the older levels and maybe just getting the book, homeschool manuel and seeing if there are things I can do with Saxon (obviously eliminating some of Saxon's repetition) - sort of weaving the two together and throwing in some living math books. |
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Sounds like a good idea to me but I'm not dealing with anything beyond elementary at the moment so take my opinion for what it's worth 
Are you able to get a list of what's required for testing for SAT's and other standardized tests in your child's future? I would just look at those to see what differences occur so that my kids can "jump through the hoops" without much trouble. Maybe talk to a local high school math teacher for advice as to what the standarized tests require?
Just some ideas...
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 27 2006 at 3:43pm | IP Logged
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Since I have a high schooler, we've already done the Saxon through all the grades. I do notice that vocabulary and set-up of SAT and ACT are very similar to Saxon - so it gives them familiarity. Our very non math oldest did quite well on standardized tests using Saxon and really I don't mind Saxon, I'd just like to develop a bit more of the math thinking and real-world problems type thing. I just haven't seen the upper grades in Singapore and am a bit hesitant to jump in and spend the money without knowing what is in it and why I cannot seem to find people really happy with it after level 5. Since our son is in Saxon 5/4, we'd have to backtrack to level 4A and then probably back to Saxon. The break might be good for him - but I also hesitate to keep changing programs on him. The biggest allure of Singapore math for me were the workbooks because then this son could focus on the math and not all the copy skills. He suppresses and we are still working on eye skills with him. Thirty problems to copy from book to paper is entirely too much. I am currently simply circling the problems in Saxon that I really think he needs to do to adjust - but he is getting tired of the endless repetition and wants to actually use the math. I could simply cut down more on the # of problems in a lesson and then supplement with a workbook from somewhere and some living books to fill in the other things. I'm just thinking out loud.
Janet
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Taffy
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Janet,
Just an idea but do you know of anyone doing home renovations or anyone in construction who would like to mentor your son? Dh is a high school math teacher and runs into the question "When would I ever use this?" a lot. He always points out all of the non-university jobs where applied math is really important... auto mechanics, plumbing, construction, web design, etc. My brother was in construction for several years and often says that he wishes he'd paid more attention in math.
Not sure if this helps, just thought I'd suggest 
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Susan
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Erin
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ALmom wrote:
| The biggest allure of Singapore math for me were the workbooks because then this son could focus on the math and not all the copy skills. He suppresses and we are still working on eye skills with him. Thirty problems to copy from book to paper is entirely too much. Janet |
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Janet
A friend of mine has just swapped to SM after viewing mine because many of her children have visual processing problems and she saw this program as very good for them.
I don't see SM as jumping around as it really strenghtens their maths skills, there is a lot of lateral thinking involved. I've been surprised with my children's positive response to it. I have a very gifted dd in maths and she is being challenged and yet my ds who previously hated maths now loves maths and much of this is the layout of the page it is not intimidating looking.
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ALmom
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Erin,
Thanks for your comments. I keep going back and forth with oldest on this. Would you mind telling me the age of your oldest using this math - what level are you using.
Singapore Math just told me that most American users switch to something else after level 6 because the program becomes more teacher intensive after that.
That helps clarify things a bit and I am back to thinking about going ahead and trying Singapore Math with all the boys.
Janet
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teachingmom
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| Posted: Jan 29 2006 at 1:44pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| Singapore Math just told me that most American users switch to something else after level 6 because the program becomes more teacher intensive after that. |
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This is interesting. I have a level 6 student right now and I hadn't given any thought yet to where we will go next year. I'm glad your comment has made me think about this because I might not have realized that maybe I should head somewhere else until July or August!
What are the Singapore options for 7th grade? Is anyone following this thread who has used Singapore through level 6 and beyond? What have you done after level 6? Is there a logical place to pick up with Jacob's math after Singapore 6?
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mom3aut1not
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Irene,
I have only used the upper levels (New Elementary Math 1-3B) and the Early bird Math for little kids. I have never used PM, but I like it. I usually go from NEM 3B to Precalculus. You ;might need some additional work in logarithms or geometric proofs -- or proofs of some kind. My dd's really liked NEM.
In Christ,
Deborah
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Erin
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| Posted: Jan 31 2006 at 4:14am | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
Erin,
Would you mind telling me the age of your oldest using this math - what level are you using.
Singapore Math just told me that most American users switch to something else after level 6 because the program becomes more teacher intensive after that.
Janet |
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Janet,
My oldest Chiara is 12, and would normally be in grade 7 here. However when I tested her for the SM she placed at the grade 5 book. Part of this was her attitude on the day and part of it was because she had lost her love of maths that year due to a wrong program.
Over the holidays she completed 5A in three weeks. Loved it and now loves maths again. She started 5B yesterday, despite being advanced previously there are new concepts she is meeting in these books, some has been revision, I think there will be less in 5B.
I'm finding it teacher intensive in some things now. However I believe I prefer this after our disastorous year as it enables me to keep my 'finger on the pulse' more. Sometimes I have to explain a new concept and sometimes she can work it out. Some days we have to wait for Dad to come home but that is with any maths program I use and often they will 'click' faster when he tells them something.
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Kathryn UK
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This isn't a direct answer to anything on this thread, but it may be worth knowing that Singapore have more than one maths scheme intended to follow Primary Math. New Elementary Maths is the more academic track, moves faster, and prepares students to take a joint Singapore / UK 'O' level exam at 16. Very mathematical and science oriented students in Singapore also take an additional maths option in the equivalent of grades 9 and 10, leading to a second, "Additional Math" 'O' level. For less mathematical students there is another course, New Maths Counts. This has five books, leading to a 'Normal' level exam at 16 after completing four books, and catching up to the 'O' level standard by the end of the series. I haven't seen either NEM or NMC, but I know someone who used NMC with a mathematically struggling daughter and was very pleased with it. Apparently it moves in gentler steps, and needs far less teacher input than NEM. For more able students it would be feasible to complete the 5 NMC books in 4 years - possibly a better option for anyone who is concerned about the amount of teaching required by NEM? You can find New Maths Counts samples here and New Elementary Maths samples here if you want to compare the two.
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ALmom
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Well I got my Primary Math books (1A through 4B) and I am very pleased. It's a good thing since its quite a bit of money for all.
I am very pleased with what I see:
The print size is large with very good contrast. While the tb illustrates the points being made, it doesn't get so busy as to be distracting or give a headache (a problem with most U.S. texts imo).
The concepts are presented in an orderly way - things that are related are grouped together. I sort of did this myself with Saxon (as best I was able)- by verbally teaching the whole concept when we came to it rather than limiting myself to the truncated part presented in Saxon. Still there always seemed to be a certain lack of real order (and in math and science that is a really big crime imo) This will make things easier for me and reminds me more of the math books I had growing up.
There are some great units on measurement and geometry that I felt was lacking in Saxon. They were wonderfully thought provoking and real-world related imo.
The text spends enough time on each concept and minimizes the endless repetition that gets very, very old in Saxon. My dc are sick of practicing rounding and adding basic numbers. I also find that I really do disagree with the concept that presenting a bunch of unrelated concepts early and then repeating them over and over is the best way to teach math. When I took math in school, things were very systematic and sequential, each building on the next. I have tried to make Saxon do this for me - and have had some success simply because we go slowly through the first book and then skip several levels to another and use other texts to fill in the whole concept - using Saxon more as a practice exercise book than a textbook. Now I realize that Singapore will do an even better job than I was able - and it is very, very easy to use at least at the levels we are looking at.
We did decide, for Stephen, to weave the two together - use Singapore interspersed with Saxon - but then I skip a lot of Saxon problems. I basically only circle the ones I want him to do. I'm doing this mostly at Stephen's request. I'd prefer to use Singapore for a while and then test back into whatever program we go with. He doesn't want another change but agreed to do the concept units in Singapore that I think we need. We'd take a break from Saxon on those days. I'm hoping he'll like Singapore better and wean to it.
Just thought I'd update everyone. I am curious what other folks in the U.S. do when they hit upper levels of math. I really dread the Saxon Alg. I (I felt it was one of the worst in terms of truncating parts of concepts to the degree that dc lost the point of why they were doing what they were doing).
Janet
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Erin
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ALmom wrote:
| Well I got my Primary Math books (1A through 4B) and I am very pleased. |
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Janet
I am so pleased It is a worry sometimes when you recommend something to someone as what fits for some doesn't neccessarily for another.
I was most interested to read your comments on Saxon as I had often wondered if that was the way to go for oldest dd. Another factor about SM is if they are motivated it doesn't take them long to move on. Dd has just told me she plans on getting to Book 7 this year. She is currently on 5B. She will get there too with the effort she is putting in.
I pray you will continue to be happy with SM and it is a good fit for your children.
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Erin
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: question about Singapore Math
