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Bookswithtea
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I can't tell you how many times I have read this suggestion. And they are usually from people I trust. But I have never really had the courage to try it.
Does anyone actually do this? I wonder sometimes if people are dropping the traditional math books and doing so many manipulative and living math activities that the child ends up having a strong early math program anyway. M
y brain is not wired to like math, and its the hardest subject for me to teach in an interesting way.
If you have just unschooled math until age 10...without doing Math It or Miquon or 8 jillion manipulatives, and then had the child start in a traditional math program around age 10, did it work for you? Would you be willing to share?
Blessings,
~Books
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Leonie
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Well, my goal has always been no formal maths until grade 3 or 4 ( I read and liked some fo the Moores stuff and Joh Holt as a new homeschooler, years ago  ) - but my kids have all liked the brightly coloured maths books available at the store. They have all asked for a book! So the boys have worked in these, off and on, as they liked.
But truly, I believe that most of their maths in the early years has been learned through cooking, games, craft, money, real life.
Ruth Beechick strongly supports this in her 3Rs series, too.
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Leonie
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Also - There is a woman, Constance Kamii, who has studied how children learn maths. She studied their development readiness, and discovered that teaching algorithms before children are ready actually reduces their future maths ability. "Kamii calls attention to the ways in which traditional textbook-based teaching can be harmful to children's development of numerical reasoning"
She has a book that covers how children learn maths: Young Children Re-invent Arithmetic . This book talks about her research, and gives information on how to assess where your child is developmentally (maths-wise).
She has follow-up books (similar titles) for grades 1-3 that go into more detail about that age, and give some developmentally appropriate maths activities.
Young Children Re-invent Maths
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Leonie in Sydney
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Karen T
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My oldest (ds 12) is very bright but did struggle with math in public school, and once home, I had to reteach about the last 1.5 yrs worth of material he'd covered. He has caught up and actually does quite well, but still has this phobia about math and thinks if he missed 1-2 problems on a page he's stupid.
For this reason, I am trying to really take things slowly with ds 5.5. He actually appears to have more "instinctive" math skills already, like putting groups of things together when he's playing and telling us how many, re-grouping, etc. (conversely, he has much more trouble with phonics, etc.)
I read Beechick's booklet and it made a lot of sense, how the different levels of math understanding work and trying to force the connection between physical items and numbers on paper too soon is harmful. So we do a lot of manipulative work, nothing written, but even the manipulatives are done as games to him. Like the other day we used a big set of colored dinosaurs, he sorted them, guessed which had the most, then lined them up to see the lines and which had the most, then regrouped into kinds of dinos, added groups, etc.
I have no idea at what point we'll transition to paperwork but I plan to follow his lead on this.
I know this doesn't answer your question, since it's not the same as doing nothing for math, and I don't know when we'll do "formal" math. But I'm hoping he'll continue to enjoy math more than his older brother.
Karen T
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Bookswithtea
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I guess I don't even know what I mean.  I just feel like there ought to be some balance between all bookwork, zero direct math activities, or a manipulatives based program that is a ton of work for a non mathy mom. But I can't seem to find that balance.
I always end up giving up and doing the traditional workbook thing. But I don't like that I do it.
It made me wonder what others are doing...
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Leonie
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I really feel that in the early years ( for us, up to age 8 or so) the perfect balance for *us* has been living life ( maths comes up naturally) and working in workbooks when and if the kids want.
My now ten year old still thinks that using a maths workbook is a treat and he works in that two times a week. The rest of the time we don't consciously do maths - but we learn maths anyway. 
A nice quote (below) from a book that I have recently begun to read -"Parenting a Free Child: An Unschooled Life" by Rue Kream. Okay, I have an issue with the tile and with some of the book but there are also many gems. This one is from a question about maths -
"Your children will learn the math they want and need to learn.They may learn some from games, some from conversations, some from playing on the see-saw, some from TV, some from reading, some from playing with blocks, some from listening to music, and some from observing nature...Math is all around us - not just in change or recipes or games. Trust your kids to internalize it in the ways that make sense to them."
Now, this approach may not be for everyone but so far it has worked for us.
A few years ago, when my older sons were age 11 and under, we kept a list on the kitchen dooor of all the times and places we noticed maths in our lives, over the course of a month. The list was amazing!
When I check scope and sequences for the state, I am always comforted to see the amount of topics we have covered.
Am I answering your question, BWT, or am I just rambling in sharing our experiences? 
Hope others will share - I find that there are a myriad of approaches to maths.
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Kathryn UK
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Have you seen the Living Math website? This has extensive booklists to teach maths through living books.
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Willa
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Books, I can relate to your concern about 'balance'. My personal experience follows:
I read the Bluedorn's approach to math early in my hsing. Being a literalist who does NOT do informal stuff with my kids readily -- (the kids who can tie their shoes in this house do so because they taught themselves or a sibling or friend taught them!) I just didn't do ANY math with my kids.... except in little spurts. This was after a disastrous first year with Seton where they were expected to write out pages of answers for tiny little addition and subtraction drills. So that might have had something to do with it too.
This backing off didn't appear to work for them. The two middlies, now in high school, are still a bit behind in math and feel lots of anxiety about the subject. Perhaps that was just them, but both are quite intelligent and were "math thinkers" in their early years. Perhaps Seton ruined it for them. Since it's such a limited sample, all my conclusions are speculative.
With my oldest, and my younger ones, I did it differently. I use textbooks and workbooks and then when we're getting burned out, go to computer speed drills and conceptual math like Miquon, or play math games. My oldest and younger ones are/were a bit ahead in math and my oldest LOVES math -- Euclid's his favorite subject at college.
This is extremely anecdotal but I feel that some people, like me, who are "bookish" and abstract thinkers will have trouble teaching in a common sense way without some kind of scope and sequence in these developmental subjects.... like math, and perhaps phonics for pre-readers. I've never had any luck teaching basic reading skills without some sort of book, either.
When I felt I had to do all these hands-on, informal things it just didn't happen, I felt guilty, and we lagged further behind. Plus, the kids didn't like that kind of math any better than the regular math. Maybe I taught it wrong.
I'm certainly willing to believe that informal math is the best approach for young kids developmentally, but in this house, we've had to compromise a bit. We have structure but a lot of negotiation and side tacks and "laterals" when a kid's stuck. You know, by laterals -- I mean zipping across to a different topic, measurement instead of decimals; or even moving a bit backwards to consolidate times tables or something, plus build back confidence. This seems to work for us.
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Willa
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Rachel May
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This is just what I needed tonight!
I was a bit frustrated that even though my 6 y/o boys love math, they don't seem to be "getting it" with Math-U-See lately. Even though my husband told me this week that he thinks homeschooling is "flaky," I decided to back off the text and take some time playing math games and doing Marcy Cook Math.
Mrs. Cook was my 4th and 5th grade gifted ed math teacher. Her tile cards are just fun and addictive, and when I found out that I could just buy a set of cards and tiles instead of trying to recreate them, I was very happy. My boys played them as we drove cross country and our 4 yo plays them when she feels like doing math. One very nice thing, each card is designed to use each number 0-9 only once so they are pretty much self correcting. Sorry, that sort of got off track.
I won't say I'm not a formal math person, but I do believe in having as much fun as possible in all subjects. I also have a workbook phobia so I'll doanything to avoid them! I like the idea of unschooling, but it sort of scares me so I come here for ideas of how to get my feet wet.
I have to admit I'm feeling much better now. I guess my children won't be ruined if I don't crack the whip in the morning.
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Leonie
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Thanks for the link, RAchel. Looks good - and nice to hear of your connection with Mrs Cook.
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Bookswithtea
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***This is extremely anecdotal but I feel that some people, like me, who are "bookish" and abstract thinkers will have trouble teaching in a common sense way without some kind of scope and sequence in these developmental subjects.... like math, and perhaps phonics for pre-readers. I've never had any luck teaching basic reading skills without some sort of book, either.
When I felt I had to do all these hands-on, informal things it just didn't happen, I felt guilty, and we lagged further behind. Plus, the kids didn't like that kind of math any better than the regular math. Maybe I taught it wrong.***
Willa, I could have written this! This is exactly how I feel. My brain does not wrap around doing stuff without any kind of scope and sequence so when I read "no formal math" I know what that means in my house...no math at all. I am not good at commenting, while we are baking cookies, "and 1/4 cup is what part of 1?" Mostly I'm just trying to make sure the egg shells don't end up in the dough!
So here's my follow up question: If you work through texts but take breaks (something that appeals to me) how long does it take you to finish a text, and do you move through them more slowly than average? Does it matter if I start this with a 1st grader and in the 5th grade she is only in a 3rd grade book because of the breaks?
Leonie, I am so tempted to buy that book! I studied Piaget in college and was impressed with his work. My main source for child development books has been the Giselle Institute books which refer to his work all the time. Thank you for the link, and for sharing how its worked in your home. I wish I had kids who asked for math books. :-)
Thanks also to those who posted other links for fun math alternatives. I'm going to read them later when the baby is not cranky.
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FWIW...
I could've written Willa's post as well. To complicate the issue here, my ds has major language difficulties; he needs a direct presentation.
My compromise is to alternate days with the math text (we use Singapore math) with days where we play games reviewing the math concepts. Vic is having trouble with abstract concepts such as sequences, more/less, and comparing numbers. We also do a lot of word problems.
Dh is a high school math teacher and is constantly teaching pupils who do not have a strong enough base in elementary maths to pass his courses. He feels very strongly that neglecting math in the early grades is very detrimental later in life (as someone already posted, math is very important in modern life. Even for those who are not college bound. My brother was in construction for several years and frequently commented that he wishes he'd paid more attention in math.)
I think that the key is to make math real. Word problems and games where math is used to solve real life problems illustrate to the student why it's important to learn. It's nice to think that learning should always be enjoyable but sometimes, one must discipline themselves through boring concepts in order to learn the interesting stuff.
Just my opinion...
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Sarah
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I do Calculadder with my ds 9. He likes timed stuff, but I'm not worried or uptight if he can't make the time. I do a little flashcards here & there. And then I use a chalkboard for problems. We some problems each week and he likes to be able to stand at a chalkboard and computate. I have a formal textbook and manual, but I jump around through it. This has been great. Math takes about 20 minutes/day. He's happy and learning.
Ds 7 does a few worksheets here and there. Its laid back and non-stressful. We get through all of what they are expected to know during the year, but I don't do endless pages of problems. Every once in a while I get worried they won't be able to write down a problem on paper-then I review that aspect. I do think they need some math, though. I don't want to have to invent the wheel with them at 10 years old.
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BrendaPeter
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Some of you may remember this article that someone posting on the original 4reallearning group entitled The Story of An Experiment. From what I remember, reading literature to elementary children really helped them in math, without requiring them to do formal math.
I'm a "scope & sequence" kind of mom too, but I mostly like for my children to form the habit of doing some figure work on a daily basis. I love math & think it's "fun" so I try to convey that to my kids.
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Rachel May
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What an amazing article! I guess it answers the question of what happens if you fall behind in a text.
I have been thinking about the subject of discipline through the boring parts that Liz mentioned. I agree completely which is why my kids always practice their piano, but it made me wonder about math and whether, as Books asked at the beginning, that discipline in math is necessary in the early years?
I like the approach of Mr. Benezet in the article and would love to try it, but I have a couple of questions. How do I teach what I don't know how to do? (My husband and I were both trying to guess how many people went to one Sunday mass and were stumped.  ) Also, how do I convice my state and, more importantly, my husband who tonight reiterated his stance that homeschool is flaky. The more I want to move toward unschooling, the less he is even supporting the homeschool we have. Hmmmmmmmmm.
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Taffy
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This is my view, take it for what it's worth...
I think that ensuring that my children know their basic math facts before they enter algebra is a big time saver. Trying to learn algebra when you still have a hard time remembering that 5+7=12 just will make it that much more complicated to learn.
Teaching math to my autistic son has highlighted his difficulties with sequencing and ordinal numbers to me. I doubt that I would have been perceptive enough to pick it up otherwise. It is a big reason as to why narrations have been so sparse.
The method of teaching these foundations is up to the teacher. If your children can pick it up by infering from daily life and reading, great! Less work for you! In fact, even if they can't, using such methods will help explain the relevance of the daily drills, etc. But to neglect it altogether and to assume that children will pick it up fast enough when faced with a "real-life" problem is giving your child a disadvantage in life.
Or, to put it another way, while piano is very valuable, which do you think will affect your child more in later years? Their ability to play Mozart or their ability to perform mental math easily when doing things such as comparing prices at the grocery store?
BTW - piano can be used to teach math skills to. I can't remember the proper term but changing the key of music (from B flat to E, for example) requires mathematical thinking.
There are ways to make learning math fun. Card games are a great way to reinforce addition, subtraction, sequencing, comparing, etc. is one example. Building things is a great way to reinforce geometry. Can't think of fun ways to memorize the multiplication tables yet but I'm sure they are out there.
Just my opinion...
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Willa
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I am not good at commenting, while we are baking cookies, "and 1/4 cup is what part of 1?" Mostly I'm just trying to make sure the egg shells don't end up in the dough!
So here's my follow up question: If you work through texts but take breaks (something that appeals to me) how long does it take you to finish a text, and do you move through them more slowly than average? Does it matter if I start this with a 1st grader and in the 5th grade she is only in a 3rd grade book because of the breaks? |
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Absolutely -- about the egg shells, the same goes for me
I don't find that they get behind. The three kids that did traditional math with breaks the way I described are on grade level or a bit ahead. So why is that I wonder??
I think it's because when we are doing it this way we usually don't have to do as much repetition, because the kids are seeing the same concepts applied in other contexts. Take MCP Math because we've used that regularly through the years. This book will devote a whole chapter to, say, times table practice. Rather than just do all the problems every day, we might do a half-lesson per day or 2 half-lessons twice a week.
Then the rest of the time do a multiplication bingo, or multiplication squares, or counting sequences while jumping, or times table drills on Quia for five minutes while spending the extra time reading a math book? (actually haven't tried the latter, but it would work pretty well I think!)
My 7th grader is doing Key to Algebra and Key to Geometry at the same time. Geometry is mostly using a ruler and compass to discover geometrical concepts -- quite easy for him and a break from the Algebra. Sometimes we review basic math facts by using Quia or some other thing.
CM short lessons help us here too. Sometimes we split up our math day into different short sections -- one for mental math, calculating problems in our heads (usually fun if we don't go on very long), one section for drill (using Quia or something like that) and one section for "living math" where it can be a little more open-ended and exploratory. To be quite honest, with two "babies" around who love manipulatives, we don't get the "living math" things out often enough 
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Willa
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Bookswithtea
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Oh no!
I just finished the Benezet article (amazing!). But I don't know who to believe. Do you ever just feel completely overwhelmed when trying to discern the best ways? I mean, we have this amazing testimony (from a long time ago, when perhaps children were not expected to complete through Algebra II to get into college) from the article. But we also have the testimony of several families that their children struggled when they were left without formal math in the early years.
The cool thing about the Benezet article is that he lays out what to teach from K-8. Even I could do what he laid out.  Also, did anyone notice that as more formal math started (but before the formal textbook time) he used a method similar to Math It? I could also see some similarities with Math U See, in not overwhelming the child and in trying to appeal to their sense of logic and common sense with the blocks.
I also thought his whole experiment was quite a testimony to narration.
Humph and harumph. I recognize my own 6th grader in those traditional classroom examples. Zero common sense...all about "what operation am I supposed to use."
I feel like a freak. One day I am on the side of the better late than early/Bluedorns/Carole Joy Seid/Moore's. The next day I am panicking and pulling out a math workbook. I told Carole Joy Seid at her seminar that my 11yo was looking overwhelmed with math. She told me to drop all formal math until the 7th grade and to encourage him to start a business instead! I'm a big chicken, though. The consequences of my decisions are huge here, and I won't know if I am succeeding or failing until its too late!
Someone tell me what to do????
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Bookswithtea
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Willa, we must have been posting at the time time...I didn't see yours till after mine posted.
Thank you for sharing. I've never seen MCP beyond K. Is it a spiraling program or a mastery approach?
I think I'm going to have a cup of tea now, and brood over this whole thing some more, while I completely ignore that I am supposed to be educating my children, and get out the playdough instead.
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BrendaPeter
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Bookswithtea wrote:
Oh no!
I just finished the Benezet article (amazing!). But I don't know who to believe. |
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Dear Books,
I am so sorry! I hoped the article would help you not confuse you more!
Bookswithtea wrote:
I feel like a freak. One day I am on the side of the better late than early/Bluedorns/Carole Joy Seid/Moore's. The next day I am panicking and pulling out a math workbook.
Someone tell me what to do????
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Welcome to the club ! There's only one thing to do - bring it to the foot of the cross. If God is calling you to homeschool, then He's going to help you with all of these decisions. Sounds like you were planning to consult Him anyway - over that cup of tea ...
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: No Formal Math before Age 10?
