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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: April 17 2005 at 10:17pm | IP Logged
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How and when do you ladies teach grammar? We have been using Simply Grammar, and liked Part 1, but have not been happy with the rest. There are so many other programs to choose from... Do you ladies have a grammar program, or do you just use a good reference and then cover sentence structure, tenses, etc as mistakes/questions arise in the children's writings? Grammar and writing are not my strong points, so I'm thinking we would probably benefit from a curriculum...
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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teachingmom
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| Posted: April 17 2005 at 10:41pm | IP Logged
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Hi Janette,
I hadn't done anything about grammar until this year, other than going over their daily writing assignments with them and explaining grammar corrections as I went. I finally bought Easy Grammar books for my 3rd and 5th grader. I, too, am weak in grammar. I can spot grammatical errors easily, but do not have the terminology or rules down at all. So the "easy" part is pretty important, in my opinion. It has worked out well so far. My 5th grader is working through the entire 4/5 book this year. My 3rd grader is working through the first half of the 3/4 book this year and will continue with it next year.
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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Molly Smith
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| Posted: April 27 2005 at 6:11pm | IP Logged
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I'm hoping to bump this back up...
I'm interested in opinions on this, too, because I must find a formal grammar program. Jeanne's been doing her testing this week and she's done well in every category except grammar. The disappointing part for me is that the things she missed are very easy things! I just missed the boat. I'm not consistent with copywork/dictation, so I do plan to start doing that more formally, but I think I need an actual "lesson" of some sort to keep me on track.
We tried English for the Thoughtful Child last year, but we didn't stick with it for some reason. I just came across Simply Grammar by Karen Andreaola in the PHC catalog. Has anyone used that?
Irene, what are the Easy Grammar lessons like? Do you complete them in a day, or over a course of a week?
I also came across the First Language Lessons by Susan Wise Bauer. Has anyone seen it? I do really well with scripted lessons (like Saxon math). I wouldn't want it for every subject, but for something like this where I'm not doing well I'll take the extra help.
Thanks!
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Molly Smith in VA
Mom to seven beautiful children, ages 1-14
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Bridget
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| Posted: April 27 2005 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
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I don't know if you are interested in a workbook appraoch for this, but we really like Catholic Heritage Curricula's Language of God series. It has a gentle style and pace.
My children are learning from it. I sit with them for part of the lesson to be sure they are getting it but it requires no brain work or special effort from me.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Molly Smith
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| Posted: April 27 2005 at 6:25pm | IP Logged
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Bridget, for what ages are you using the CHC program? I am interested in a workbook approach. For some reason, I have been thrown into a whole incompetence mindset that is making me want to throw in the towel and order a "box curriculum" from somewhere! I'm not quite that desparate yet, but it do think I need to un-relax a bit. Thanks for the input--I will check out Language of God.
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Molly Smith in VA
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Bridget
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| Posted: April 27 2005 at 6:53pm | IP Logged
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My 11 year old is finishing up level D. (Meant for 4/5th grade, but we're slow around here.  ) It's the last level. I don't think there is anything childishly offensive about it if you wanted to use it for a middle school age child. Level A is meant for 1st/2nd grade.
CHC Language of God
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Natalia
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| Posted: April 27 2005 at 9:43pm | IP Logged
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Molly,
I used First Language Lessons (It is not by Susan but by her mother Jessie) with my 7 yo son. The book is designed to be covered over two years (first and second grade), I really liked it. It introduces the parts of speech. It uses memorization to learn the definitions of each one and also to learn poems. It also introduces narration, copywork and dictation. The sentences for copywork and dictation are given in different levels of difficulty. The lessons are scripted and take only a few minutes to complete. The only thing I found is that I my ds was progressing faster so I skipped some lessons. I know some people don't like the scripted approach but I liked it.
I don't know how old is your child but when my dd was in 5th grade we used Rod and Staff. It a very thorough approach to grammar. It also include some writing. The best part I thought was that it includes diagramming sentences which if I understand correctly has been abandoned in many of the more know grammar books. It is not Catholic and it uses religious examples mostly biblical. I didn't find anything offensive to Catholicism. I liked it very much and might use it again in the future. They don't have a website but if you call them up they will send you a sample of the course you are interested in.
HTH.
Natalia
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teachingmom
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| Posted: April 27 2005 at 11:03pm | IP Logged
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Hi Molly,
Each Easy Grammar lesson can be finished in a day. (Actually in 10-15 minutes or less.  ) To be honest, This is one area that I have let the workbook do the teaching for the most part. Unfortunately, my memory for grammar is awful. So when dd asks for specific help, I often have to go back in the workbook and find what a certain grammar term means before I can help her. I didn't bother buying the answer book at the levels my children are using. The other day I was thinking that I should really make a review list of rules and grammar definitions for my own use.
I can competely identify with your testing experience. The first time I tested my oldest, I was mortified to find that although she was at the top of the charts in most areas, she had missed quite a few basic capitalization and punctuation questions. It was definitely a case of teacher failure--not student failure.
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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Molly Smith
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| Posted: April 28 2005 at 5:17am | IP Logged
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teachingmom wrote:
| she had missed quite a few basic capitalization and punctuation questions. It was definitely a case of teacher failure--not student failure. |
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That is definitely the case here! I feel just awful about it, too. My daughter is 9, has been reading since she was almost 5, and I guess I just assumed she would know simple capitalization and punctuation just from her reading. She's a great student and soaks up everything I give her, I've just not given her enough or the right things  .
Now my problem is to decide how far back to begin. She's sharp as a tack and will blow through the easy stuff, so I guess I'll just look up all of these and start at the beginning with whichever we choose. I've got enough other kiddos falling in behind her that someone will use it.
I have another question, but I think I'll start another thread. I truly appreciate you all taking the time to help me with this!
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Molly Smith in VA
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juliecinci
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| Posted: April 28 2005 at 9:30am | IP Logged
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Don't feel too awful about those lapses in grammar. Kids schooled at home have a far stronger sense of syntax (how language works correctly) than schooled kids. They also have an intuitive grasp of correct usage from all that reading aloud.
Where they fall behind their public schooled peers is in the vocabulary of grammar as well as the particlar attention to punctuation. These will be learned through dictation and copywork (and personal writing) but the progress is not as easily quantified. You might have a daugher who can nail dialog punctuation but who still forgets capitals at the beginning of her sentences (I have a daughter who was like that until 13!).
But at fifteen, she is so much further than her peers in her grasp of language and how to use it, manipulate it, how to empower it with her voice.
The testing done at the end of the year is designed to reflect the goals of a school district (which are not the same as goals at home).
Using a grammar program at some point during the elementary years will help, but I wouldn't obsess over it or feel guilty either. By the end of high school, your kids will be just fine and ahead of those who have had to endure the tedium of yearly grammar for their entire school lives.
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: April 28 2005 at 11:05pm | IP Logged
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Irene, ten times I've opened a window to thank you for your reply, and I've never responded! Thanks for your suggestion!
Julie, you are so reassuring!
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Leonie
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A formal grammar workbook may not always be the solution! I find that children who have completed formal grammar texts, still make some errors.
As Julie said, errors, such as punctuation and capitalization errors, seem to tbe the nature of childhood in general, and of some children in particular.
I have always found copywork to be really helpful - its kind of the role model approach.
Copywork has also been good for us to talk about nouns, adjectives - you name it. And we do this talk, too, in the editing process, when typing a story or narration on the computer.
My eldest two sos learned their more formal grammar through Latin and foreign languages, as older homeschoolers.
One approach.....
Leonie in Sydney
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cathhomeschool
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Thank you all for your suggestions. Julie and Leonie, we had let copywork fall off the schedule somehow and I didn't even realize it! I received The Writer's Jungle a week ago, and started looking at Julie's Brave Writer Lifestyle ideas last night. I'm taking your (pl) suggestions and using copywork as an impetus for discussing grammar (along with Mad Libs, which we'd also dropped, and a School House Rock computer game). My concern was that I'm not knowledgeable enough in grammar, but I guess I can use a good adult reference (and would actually enjoy that) and then just teach the children through copywork.
Leonie, Macbeth recently suggested learning formal grammar through another language too. I speak Spanish, and am teaching the kids (they've forgotten most of what they knew for lack of practice -- shame on me!), but we don't really cover the grammatical aspect, only spoken and written. I'd like to teach them Latin (and brush up on it myself). I guess I'm floundering again because several Latin programs have been recommended. Decisions, decisions!
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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TracyQ
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We have used Language of God from CHC too. My daughter is in 4th grade, and working on her last book in it, Level D.
I wasn't as diligent with her older brothers, and I do see a difference. I'm very blessed that I was more of a stickler with her with grammar.
I am now trying to go back to that approach with the boys, and trying to get them to do better in that area. It's not that we completely abandoned it with them, we just weren't as diligent.
I've also noticed that when it comes to grammar, if the parent uses proper grammar, oftentimes the children use proper grammar as well.
My mom constantly corrected our grammar, and all 6 of her children use proper grammar (for the most part). I have noticed that my sister in law, however, does not. She speaks very much like her mom, using horrible grammar. And she went through a very good school system; one supposedly much better than ours was! So I'm sure there has to be SOMEthing to that anyway.
There are so many resources out there that you can use if you really feel you need to. Grammar done a little every day can yield much progress! So there's not much harm in doing some *workbooky* work with grammar.
We've used textbook/workbook approach more in math (as it's almost impossible not to), and in grammar, and it's been a blessing for us anyway.
Hope this helps!
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Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
 homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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Marybeth
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| Posted: May 18 2005 at 7:54pm | IP Logged
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I always used Daily Oral Language when I taught. They give you two sentences per day with mistakes in grammar, capitalization, usage, etc. The program lasted for 36 weeks.
The students would love to see if they could correct their sentences and score all the points at the end of the week. It was a great tool for reinforcement and drill. I usually just make up sentences for my niece and nephew when I watch them in the summer. I wish I had my teacher's manual still...that program was a little gem. 
Just my 2 cents.
Marybeth
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TracyQ
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| Posted: May 19 2005 at 7:56am | IP Logged
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Daily Oral Language
Daily Oral Language can be seen at Christian Books. If you click on the title, each grade has samples so you can see what it's like before buying. I always like to be able to do that when possible.
There are two with similar titles. One is Daily Oral Language, and the other is Oral Language for Daily Use, so that can be confusing.
I really think Daily Oral Language looks great! It seems like it would really reinforce grammar/spelling in a short, bite sized, easily palatable way! I just wish they made them for older grades too!
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Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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Marybeth
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| Posted: May 19 2005 at 3:43pm | IP Logged
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Tracy,
This is great news!!! Now I can use something I enjoyed in the classroom while homeschooling.
Thanks for passing along the info.
God bless,
Marybeth
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TracyQ
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| Posted: May 19 2005 at 9:15pm | IP Logged
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Marybeth wrote:
Tracy,
This is great news!!! Now I can use something I enjoyed in the classroom while homeschooling.
Thanks for passing along the info.
God bless,
Marybeth |
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You're very welcome, Marybeth! I've looked at it many times for us too. Maybe this year, I'll have to use it! I bookmarked it to consider. I think it would pack a good punch with little time invested! I LOVE gems like that myself!
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Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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guitarnan
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Great thread! We just got our test scores back and I am in the same boat as you ladies. I do grammar every day with both children (CHC with dd, Easy Grammar Plus with ds) and they seem to get it...but don't seem to remember it when test time rolls around.
I'll check out your recommendations. Julie, thanks for your wise words. They helped to calm me down!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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juliecinci
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guitarnan wrote:
| Great thread! We just got our test scores back and I am in the same boat as you ladies. I do grammar every day with both children (CHC with dd, Easy Grammar Plus with ds) and they seem to get it...but don't seem to remember it when test time rolls around. |
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This is the problem with grammar instruction. It's not like math where you have manipulatives to back up the new "language" that the kids are learning. With grammar, it feels like a collection of arbitrary terms that are assigned to words you already know how to use correctly.
Students can figure out the "trick" of the grammar worksheet, get them all right and still not really grasp what a direct object actually means.
If the test uses some other way of accessing their grammar knowledge (and it differs from the grammar workbook your child is used to), often kids just don't know how to answer the questions.
Quote:
| I'll check out your recommendations. Julie, thanks for your wise words. They helped to calm me down! |
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I'm glad!
If it helps at all, my son Noah (17; 18 in two weeks) took the ACT recently. The grammar portion of that test is simply recognizing proper usage by choosing the correct a, b, c, or d that has the right words to fill in the blanks.
Example: _________ and ______ are going to the store.
a) Sharon and me, b) Sharon and I, c) Me and Sharon, d)I and Sharon
A kid with a strong sense of correct syntax should do fine.
My son, who did grammar songs in fifth, Winston Grammar in 7th and two weeks of Winston Advanced in 9th, got in the 96% percentile on the grammar section of the ACT.
(edited because I can't believe how many typos I make! Grrr)
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Julie
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Teaching grammar?
