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amiefriedl
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| Posted: April 12 2005 at 7:56am | IP Logged
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Ladies,
I'm a little frustrated and confused. I've read Montessori's works. I'm currently reading John Holt's books. Both somewhat advocate 'allowing reading and writing to happen in a gentle manner'. And I can truly believe that a my son will read when he is ready. I can see the intensity of learning in his play day. However, I also see his search for the easy way out. His tendency for laziness combined with his fear of facing challenges...
So then I read an article "Invitation to the Pain of Learning" by Mortimer Adler about how education is just going to hurt at some level and we all need to be pushed. Then I considered the quote by one of the popes (that I ran across on the Angelicum Academy's website) regarding how 'unschooling', or perhaps overly 'gentle' schooling, cannot really work with our fallen nature because we'll all tend toward decay of a sorts instead of growth.
It's contradiction, no? Two extremes that need to be balanced and a happy medium to be found?
I know that through prayer I'll be better able to manage the mother-educator second guessing as well as the fear that I have already 'ruined' my son's outlook on education. But I would also really love to hear some words of wisdom from mothers who have already perhaps grappled with this problem.
Mainly, I want to find real consistency in approach/teaching reading and writing with my son but I'm constantly feeling torn between allow him to wallow in human frailty (it *seems* he is avoiding challenges because he often sees any small mistakes as complete failure) and allowing his REAL LEARNING to take place.
Combine this with the fatigue of going into third trimester and a huge 'to-do' list of 'got-to-get-dones before-baby-arrives' and you have a mommy in need of some seasoned mother-educator opinions/experiences.
Please help me if you can!
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In Christ the King through Mary our Mother,
Amie
Blessed with an awesome hubby and Mom of ds10, dd7, dd3 and dd 10months.
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Kerry
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| Posted: April 12 2005 at 2:11pm | IP Logged
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Hi Amie,
well, i don't know that i'm very seasoned as this is our first year homeschooling, but I can relate to your dilemma and offer some empathy at least .:) My son (at the tender age of 51/2 )is already such a perfectionist that he "hates" to try or do anything if he can't get it perfectly the first time. It's frustrating on many levels, but mostly b/c I too don't want to "push" him, but also know that he will miss out on so much in life if he doesn't learn to at least try new things, and show some perseverance in mastering them.
I don't have any magic answers...all I can say is that right now, I am trying to find areas in which he has had some success, and transfer those feelings to the "new areas." For example, he , for a long time, had trouble pronouncing "f" sounds. Foot became doot etc etc. eventually, after much practice , he mastered it(mostly b/c he was older and developmentally ready to do so). at any rate, we made a HUGE deal about it...calling grandparents,etc. etc. Now, when he struggles w/ something, I often bring up his "f" experience to remind him of how practice pays off. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I can at least see that it makes him think. Whenever, he tries something, we also pour on the praise...just for the effort. Sorry I can't be more of a help!
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Kerry
married to DH John 8/8/98,
mommy to Daniel 8/6/99, Isaiah 7/10/01, Gianna 3/28/03, Samuel 10/11/04
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amiefriedl
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Kerry,
Thanks for your empathy! I'll take it! You sound like you know exactly what I'm dealing with here. I very much appreciate your thoughts. My son too cannot seem to soak up enough praise. He's quite the bottomless pit when it comes to praise, affirmation and all other forms of attention. He has been that way since day one.
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In Christ the King through Mary our Mother,
Amie
Blessed with an awesome hubby and Mom of ds10, dd7, dd3 and dd 10months.
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juliecinci
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| Posted: April 12 2005 at 10:50pm | IP Logged
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Hi Amie.
I was flying by and caught site of your post. I think it takes time to really develop a homeschooling philosophy that matches who you are and who your family is... and then everything changes again anyway. 
I believe we all reinvent homeschool every year, tweaking and fine tuning our efforts.
As far as whether to push for results or to yield and nurture, I tend toward the latter. I like to create opportunities for kids to thrive and I put relationships ahead of academics. I trust that learning is enticing in and of itself, that it is not limited to a list of school subjects and that people who feel life is open to them, grow.
If there is an area in which one of my kids shows special interest, I like to let the discipline of that field exert its own pressure. So for example, pinao lessons naturally lead to practice each day. A sport relies on practices and skills that need to be improved to perform at a high level.
When we are doing math or language arts, I like to make the experience as enjoyable as possible since I've seen "joy" do more teaching than I ever could. When joy is shut down, I've noticed that my kids don't respond at all to urging and pushing, but rather become morose and depressed.
So I think a lot has to do with observing your children and then watching what works.
Hope some of that helps. I'm in my thirteenth year of homeschooling and it's looked different every year. (Even though my sig says twleve years... I added it up wrong!)
Julie
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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amiefriedl
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| Posted: April 13 2005 at 10:33am | IP Logged
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Julie,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have been thinking about this full time now. I have so much to say about it all that I can't imagine typing all my thoughts here. It helps to sit here though and think about it as I read everyone's replies.
My nature wants to push and shove, check boxes and measure the progress of education in a tangible manner. I have trouble letting go. My experiences demand that same thing; ie my public school and college training memories. The World demands this all too; thoughts of what my public school teacher-sister will say; my parents etc about what progress we make in home school. These things are all shadows in mind as I yearn to sit back and enjoy life with my children in a relationship building manner.
The truth cannot be denied. We don't really 'teach' our children. No one teaches me. No one has ever taught me. All that I truly know and understand has been knowledge that I have gone after myself/God has given to me. There have always been people in certain times and places that have supplied the knowledge that I was already seeking and I soaked it up. But I had to WANT it or it didn't stick. (Am I being Miss Melodrama here or what?  )
But this understanding is daunting to me as a mother-teacher. I have to stop running around the house taking care of the many household demands and be open and sensitive about learning where my children need to learn. It's overwhelming at times to think about it. Without a stronger prayer life it will be impossible. Priorities, priorities!
The rewards are there though, I know. The right kind of rewards! I'm off to go think, read and grow some more and be grateful to God for my many blessings. Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!
Could all this introspection and/or discontent be a subsection of the nesting instinct?? I bet there is some connection at least. 
__________________
In Christ the King through Mary our Mother,
Amie
Blessed with an awesome hubby and Mom of ds10, dd7, dd3 and dd 10months.
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Kerry
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| Posted: April 13 2005 at 1:07pm | IP Logged
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Amie, I DEFINITELY think it could be a part of your nesting instinct, but a good part I think. Thanks for sharing your"introspections"....it's helped me tremendously as I try to get re-motivated.
God bless you.
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Kerry
married to DH John 8/8/98,
mommy to Daniel 8/6/99, Isaiah 7/10/01, Gianna 3/28/03, Samuel 10/11/04
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Mare
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| Posted: April 13 2005 at 1:52pm | IP Logged
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<<< I can see the intensity of learning in his play day. However, I also see his search for the easy way out. His tendency for laziness combined with his fear of facing challenges...>>>
Amie,
My 5.5 yr. old dd sometimes is like that. I get a big sigh every now and then along with a “Do I have to do this?” My reply is “Yes, but until you are ready to do school with a smile, you can find something to do in your room.” Dd will go upstairs and when she is ready for school, she comes down in a much better frame of mind and I didn't just lose my mind  .
I think there are just some things that children have to learn to do whether they like it or not. I’m not saying making a child do something that they aren’t capable of doing. It’s just that we all have to do things in life that we don’t want to do. All the same we have to do them.
As a recovering perfectionist, I’m trying to teach my children
(who are also showing signs of perfectionism  ) that it is okay to try your best and still make mistakes. We just read about Thomas Edison last week. Oh my, he made lots of mistakes but learned from them. Did you know that Edison failed ten thousand times before successfully inventing the incandescent light bulb? He said “I didn’t fail; I just found ten thousand ways that didn’t work.” I love that!
Here's a link for on Edison on failure. Just scroll to the middle of the page.
http://www.minot.k12.nd.us/mps/edison/aboutte2.html
Here is another story about learning from mistakes:
http://www.freep.com/voices/columnists/crim9e_20050209.htm
Ok, I've got a few quotes up my sleeve too  :
Thomas J. Watson, founder of IBM, said “To be successful you must double your rate of failure.”
Andrew Carnegie said “Every failure carries with it the seeds of an equivalent or greater success. “
<<<My nature wants to push and shove, check boxes and measure the progress of education in a tangible manner. I have trouble letting go. My experiences demand that same thing; ie my public school and college training memories. The World demands this all too; thoughts of what my public school teacher-sister will say; my parents etc about what progress we make in home school. These things are all shadows in mind as I yearn to sit back and enjoy life with my children in a relationship building manner.>>>
I can sooo relate to what you are saying here on two levels. First, I am a goal-oriented person. I like to see things down on paper and check them off. Second, I have a degree in education. My aunt and my sister-in-law just got their education degrees. Needless to say, they were quite surprised by our decision to home school.
I am finding out that I let too many opinions consume me. For example, there will always be someone who sees home schooling as being wrong. Either they will view me as being a pushy mom by expecting high academic standards, lazy for letting my children “play” during school time, crazy for wanting to be with my children all day, or overly protective for not sending them to school and learning to deal with school yard shenanigans. Frankly, it doesn’t matter what they think. The only thing that matters is that dh and I are following what God is calling us to do.
Because dh and I are goal-oriented we are using a scope and sequence as a guideline. We know real life happens and learning comes from that as well.
I think it is great that you are going through this searching. You'll find answers and become more convicted.
Peace,
Mare - who probably failed miserably trying to figure out these codes for italics and bolding.
soooguidelineI
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amiefriedl
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Thanks Mare,
I'm going to try the 'come back when you can do school with a smile' line on my son. And thanks for all your thoughts. It's nice hearing bits n' pieces of my own challenges playing out in the lives of other dedicated mothers. For sanity confirmation purposes!
Do you have triplets??? Or was your #3 key stuck?
Oh and thanks for the links and great quotes! I'll give the links a go. We read a great short biography about the Wright brothers and how many years of failure/testing they had to endure before they flew a plane. My son was so surprised at how long it took them. Knowing about them was a step in the right direction for him.
God bless you!
__________________
In Christ the King through Mary our Mother,
Amie
Blessed with an awesome hubby and Mom of ds10, dd7, dd3 and dd 10months.
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Mare
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| Posted: April 15 2005 at 7:35am | IP Logged
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amiefriedl wrote:
Do you have triplets??? Or was your #3 key stuck? |
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Yes, Amie, we do.  God is so good!!! He blessed our oldest dd with three sisters at once. Mulitples run on my both sides of my family. I've been able to trace twins back to the 1850's on my mother's side of the family. Although, identical triplets is a first!
amiefriedl wrote:
We read a great short biography about the Wright brothers and how many years of failure/testing they had to endure before they flew a plane. My son was so surprised at how long it took them. Knowing about them was a step in the right direction for him.
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Oh, I forgot about the Wright brothers. I'll have to add them to my list of people who've learned from their failures.
Have a great day!
Mare
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juliecinci
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I enjoyed the follow up comments int this thread.
I hope you don't mind one more thought along these lines. I've got five kids and the oldest ones are teens (13, 15, 17). I noticed that when they were littler, it was fairly easy for me to order their days and create learning adventures for them that truly inspired, challenged and entertained them. Life was open and new. Hikes yielded interest in birds or bugs. We could create a pony express with bicycles. We had a party to experience the gold rush and so on.
We read, read, read. I sat side-by-side the older ones and did math with them.
As they older ones got older and the younger side of the family got younger (it seemed), holding the needs of the various age levels together became more and more difficult. Also, I noticed as my older ones became teens, my enthusiasm and ideas weren't enough for their imaginations and sense of adventure. I tried unsuccessfully to require work from them. I created schedules with what I considered interesting reading and writing assignments. We still did hands on activities as much as possible. They took outside lessons for special interests.
Yet all of this led to apathy and reports of boredom. One of my kids at 13 said "she hated homeschool." I was shocked! That had never been the viewpoint in all the years prior.
I stopped in my tracks and we looked at how that could have occured. That was nearly five years ago now.
What I discovered then is that my older kids want an adventure as much now as ever, but they want to be in control of it. They want it "out there" not just at home. They are tired of their mother meditating their lives and experiences.
It was at this point that I had to re-think everything I thought I knew about education, "doing what you are told" and what it means to be intrinsically motivated in learning. I realized that if my kids were to take responsibility for their self-education, at some point, I had to let go of the controls and trust that the work I had done would bear fruit.
And it has.
They have interests and experiences they pursue (some that don't look schoolish or college prep) yet they are growing by leaps and bounds if I just take the time to hear what they say, to pay attention to the questions that nag at them, when I see their reading lists of library books they check out.
So my feeling about homeschool has definitely evolved. I've always believed in active, engaged learning that is tied to interests. What I have come to with my teens is supporting and undergirding (and paying for!) what they choose for themselves. At times it feels scary, but the rewards so far have been really rich and worth it.
Julie
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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amiefriedl
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| Posted: April 15 2005 at 10:57am | IP Logged
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Julie,
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with me. My emotions and my 'thinker' are running quite on overdrive right now. 
Part of me eagerly anticipates the day when I can look back over 12 or so years of homeschooling (God willing!!) and see the ebb and flow of learning for my children as well as myself. I'm such a slow learner! It has taken me over 6 years of study and consideration on the matters of homeschooling to grasp as little about it as I have. What I think I can now see from here for our future looks beautiful and exciting if I can just break out of my own blinders and bad habits to really be free to consume the richness of what homeschooling and real learning can be.
Really, a great part of what I 'see' is the amazing accomplishments and experiences of so many people on this group here. You all have made sooo much of the homeschooling life. So much time and interactions and understanding with your children! What memories to be had at the latter part of life! (I've been following the midlife thread with great interest too ) So the experiences discussed on this board are a great inspiration and a great motivator!!
 Another question is (and kindof getting back to my original question at the top of the topic) do you parents of older children feel that you can observe well...have a good instinct for when your children are not open/ready to a particular topic or are just being lazy in that fallen-nature sort-of way?? If you can sense it, is it just experience that helps you? Or do you have something tangible that you gauge it by?? I'm beginning to see now that it is not just the 'how to teach reading' question that I'm struggling with. It is a more general question of behaviour and observation as well.
My son is strong-willed (me too) and **I can't tell** when I need to sit back and observe the learning blossum or when he is possibly letting his laziness and/or fear of failure drive the situation. Some thoughts from anyone on this would be much appreciated.
Thanks to you all again for your great support and input.
__________________
In Christ the King through Mary our Mother,
Amie
Blessed with an awesome hubby and Mom of ds10, dd7, dd3 and dd 10months.
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Willa
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| Posted: April 15 2005 at 12:34pm | IP Logged
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Dear Amie,
I thought your questions were so interesting because they put into words so many of my dilemmas and puzzles during my 10+ years of homeschooling. I too have read both John Holt and Mortimer Adler, and can see the point of both of them. Do they contradict? I'm still not absolutely sure. I think with education as with all human endeavours there's a sort of balancing going on. It's not either/or but both/and at different periods of time.
Compare it to your own life -- whatever skills you have, or duties, or interests. You'll see times when you needed some down time and other times when you needed to be challenged. Sometimes you stalled for too long and made it too easy for yourself, other times you pushed yourself when you really shouldn't have, because you felt the expectations from somewhere else. But in the long run, it tended to balance out, at least in the areas you ended up fairly successful at. But in those areas, it was usually where you WANTED to learn-- your hobbies and passions, or NEEDED to learn-- housekeeping or math or whatever, or had internalized that you SHOULD learn-- character and spiritual formation.
You also probably are aware by now of what "type" of person you are -- the type that tends to push and shove, or the type that tends to give up too easily. You probably see elements of yourself in your kids. So that gives you a clue towards your "default mode" -- what you tend to do when you aren't guarding yourself.
I agree with Julie that if in doubt, when teaching your kids, it's probably better to back off and assume the best, and go into nurturing mode, rather than to push and shove. That probably COULD be argued, but I see more resistance, more burnout, more stress come from lots of pushing in a homeschool than from careful, kind negotiation. And I haven't seen remarkably superior excellence come from the pushing and shoving, either.
Now that doesn't mean just "letting go" when a kid is uncooperative, either. To me it's similar to character training. You observe the kid carefully to see where he is, you make yourself somewhat familiar with developmental stages, you expect a lot of the child but not in an inhuman, "outside" way -- that is, you try to work with his unique heart and mind, but you don't tell yourself "oh, this kid isn't capable of this or that". Because kids are usually capable of a lot, even the handicapped ones, and if they perceive that you don't think they have potential, they will fulfill your low expectations.
Now where Mortimer Adler and John Holt are concerned -- I think they both made it their business to emphasize one aspect of the truth that needed emphasizing. John Holt saw the damage caused by compulsion and emphasis on conformity and lock-step schooling. He WAS however, a man who expected a lot of himself and it’s sort of assumed in his writings that you will assume the child is capable of a lot and work WITH the child, not against him, in order to help him fulfill his potential. Since Holt was not a Christian, he may sometimes have gone off the deep end in considering a child to be naturally good and free from fallen traits, and able to know completely what he ought to learn. But a lot of his ideas are based on his keen observations of kids’ learning behaviors and are therefore very acute and accurate. Thomas Aquinas says that people learn most naturally and best what they are motivated to learn, and what they learn at firsthand by personal discovery rather than being instructed and expected to accept at secondhand. This was the truth that Holt also emphasized, that had been pushed aside in our modern, conformist, utilitarian style of schooling. Aquinas also emphasized that a love for learning comes naturally to everyone, and that the teacher must take care not to extinguish it.
Now as to Adler – I think he is emphasizing the other side of the coin. We ARE fallen. As St Paul says, we do not always do what we should – our nature works against what we know is best. Since Adler didn’t become a Catholic until his death, I don’t think he was working with a fully Catholic understanding of human nature either. We DO have to be taught and instructed, and sometimes we have to do things we don’t want to do. Aquinas said that our natural desire to learn and know must be channeled and trained to some extent. He compared a teacher’s work to that of a doctor. A GOOD doctor knows he can’t give a patient what he doesn’t already have – but he can help him improve on what he has by nature, and help him overcome disabilities and diseases. In the same way, a teacher can help the student overcome lacks and optimize his learning and his intellectual capacities, but the operative word is “help”. It’s not the teacher’s job; ultimately, it’s the student’s to CHOOSE to learn. Charlotte Mason puts it well – we can provide an environment where learning is encouraged and supported and expected, we can train the child in good habits of attention and observation and diligence, we can provide a richness of ideas and human knowledge that is WORTHY of being learned, but the student himself has to provide the act of will, he has to make the mental equivalent of putting the food in his mouth, chewing and eating and digesting. Sorry to mix all those metaphors.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Willa
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| Posted: April 15 2005 at 12:49pm | IP Logged
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You probably thought I was done!! but here's a few more thoughts -- You asked whether moms of older kids can always tell whether their kids are “slacking” or being strong willed or not.
Well, personally, I can’t usually really tell. Observation helps, as you mentioned; sympathy helps – expecting and assuming the best about the kid’s motives. But also, as you pointed out, it’s usually a mixture. You mentioned your child resisting reading and you couldn’t tell what was his strong will and what was fear or inability. I had the same problem with one of my kids. I found it most effective to assume he COULDN’T do whatever, and work with that. Because really, a strong resistant will IS another form of CAN’T. It’s an inability. Charlotte Mason calls it a weak will, that can’t make the child do what he ought.
So the methods I use to change CAN’T to CAN, also tend to change resistance to cooperation; whereas if I am in punitive mode, trying to discipline the child for resistance, I am also in oppositional mode, making the situation into a battle of wills, which is I think almost NEVER productive in education because as I mentioned above, in Catholic educational thinking, learning is always and everywhere, finally an act of the student’s OWN will. You can never FORCE a kid to act right, or to learn, or to be a devout Catholic. Even God can’t or rather, won’t, do that. He steps back – invites, desires, encourages, exhorts, lets consequences happen, but doesn’t make us into robots or automatons. He wants us to use our wills, to freely cooperate.
When a "battle of wills" between parent and child DOES seem to work, I think it's only because it cements to the child that there IS a right way and that the parents are taking the matter very seriously. In other words, there is an effect of chastisement and putting things in proper perspective. So I'm not saying a mom or teacher should be a Stepford human, always bland and lukewarm, but that she, the mom/teacher should realize that this power of righteous indignation should not be used as a club to force the issue, or over-used in every single matter of disagreement.
I probably don't need to add I learned most of this the hard way ....
To be more specific, with reading or math, or whatever – I expect the child to try, but if he is resisting, I step back – not into passiveness, but into a lower mode of expectations. Kids don’t usually LIKE working in a lower mode than what they are capable of. I think that is one of Montessori’s great insights. If they are working in a lower mode than you think they are capable of, it’s probably because they need to overlearn, to master the new skill and consolidate it. It won’t be wasted time. So you are expecting the kid to be working and putting effort into the skill, but you don’t have to expect work AND progress. The kids themselves tend to take care of the progress part, or so I believe. Baptized humans have a natural desire to do good and to learn what’s right, so we as parents do our best to foster those desires and remove the obstacles of “can’t” or “don’t want to” which are part of our fallen nature.
So to be even more specific still, if my 6 year old is fighting reading, I’d back off completely for a certain amount of time, a week or two, and spend that time motivationally – read-alouds, or whatever is fun for both of us. Then I’d pick it up but a little behind where he was working previously, so he is at his level of competence and ease. I wouldn’t expect much at all at this point except that he is sitting there for five minutes, or whatever, working on decoding – then slowly, increase time spent or whatever, but be sensitive to real heart-felt resistance and heel-dragging, as opposed to just perfunctory “I don’t want to stop playing”. If the resistance is severe, you go back to review or to read alouds and fun readiness projects, or whatever.
I hope this makes sense. In other words, you are separating the two issues. One is training the will. For that you use patience and slow increases in expectations. If your child can only work on phonics for five minutes, then you start with four minutes and build gradually. If he’s having a bad day, you go back to three or even one minute. You are starting where his will is NOW and building, but slowly. For the other issue, developing literacy, there are so many FUN things to do – read alouds, phonics games, whatever. Some kids find different things fun. One of my kids loved those twaddly worksheets – word searches, abc dot to dots, etc. As to will training and habits, Charlotte Mason says a kid shouldn’t be a victim to decisions all the time – having to consciously CHOOSE to learn phonics every single day; obviously most little boys won’t freely and consciously decide to sit down and work on phonics daily. But you can expect regular habits based on pegs or anchors in the day – “right after breakfast we work on phonics” or “right before snack or outside time, we do math” and then focus on making the habit a routine and sort of a satisfying thing – making sure he is successful, engaged, and not bored to tears or over-challenged. In the long run, you will see progress BOTH in will-training AND in literacy.
I think that’s where some secular unschoolers miss out on the potential a human being has to regulate himself and to learn a teachable spirit – sometimes they seem to expect a child to be able to DECIDE on what is right day after day, which even most adults have a hard time doing. So by the time the child, in his teenage years, gets more serious about learning and can focus better, he has already lost a lot of ground and sometimes, from what I've read in unschooling articles, has fallen into a sort of rut or track -- good at certain things but weak in others. I think the more successful unschoolers tend to expect their children to be comfortable with lots of things but leave a lot of flexibility as to HOW. Charlotte Mason writes, quoting Psalms "you have set my feet in a wide room" and I want that for my kids -- lots of "scope", and that delight and gratitude for the gift of that space. But kids don't always "naturally" have that delight in the expanse of knowledge and ideas and I think that's where environment, and training in routines and habits, can really help make them feel comfortable in the big world of learning and discovery.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Willa
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| Posted: April 15 2005 at 3:03pm | IP Logged
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Oh, and I see I dropped Adler in the middle.
I think that there's some pain in all worthy endeavours, but emphasizing the pain too much leads to a false, not fully Catholic view of existence. We are taught that our goal is happiness, joy, true peace -- those things aren't synonymous with ease & comfort but transcend them. Joy etc even transcends suffering by FAR. The point is that some pain etc is acceptable in pursuit of a worthwhile endeavour, like learning.
We don't do hard, worthwhile things BECAUSE they are painful but because some things are more good than pain is bad. Pain is certainly not the worst thing in our existence. Sin is.
I think it is good to teach this to our kids through life but also to acknowledge that pain IS painful. Sometimes we all don't want to get out of bed, scrub the toilet, be patient with a toddler, etc. It's just that we shouldn't let the pain stop us or turn us aside.
David Isaacs in his book Character Formation says that the best age to start really working on fortitude and courage, which is what I'm talking about above, is about ages 8 to 12. You don't do this solely or even mostly through schoolwork but by chores, sports, hiking, etc. I think the younger set needs to focus more on loving obedience.
I think some people like Adler who discuss the pain in learning are trying to counter the view that all learning should be immediately and at all times pleasant, comfortable etc. CS Lewis said that some learning is painful in the beginner stages because it's hard to see where it's going. The learning itself isn't immediately rewarding, but when you HAVE learned it, you are rewarded in the long term because you can understand something you couldn't before you got to that stage. The example he is is of the early stages of Greek grammar, leading to an appreciation of Greek poetry in the original. You wouldn't even be able to see WHY reading Greek poetry is so great UNTIL you are to the point where you can start actually reading it a little (not that I know this from experience). So when I'm talking to my (older) kids I try to emphasize these two points -- (1) that most worthwhile things are hard sometimes and we don't HAVE to be daunted by hardship and (2) that sometimes you can't realize the rewards until you are at a stage where you have learned enough to appreciate them. With a little kid, I try more to SHOW this by rewarding and approving good efforts, etc.
I imagine this is the sort of thing Adler and others of the "no pain, no gain" school are emphasizing. But if it becomes a sort of pleasure in inflicting pain -- a sort of "I had to face bullies in the schoolyard and boring, meaningless classes, so why shouldn't you?" then it's gone too far and is not Catholic IMO. That's where John Holt is absolutely right in resisting a kind of academic tyranny imposed on the child from outside.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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amiefriedl
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| Posted: April 18 2005 at 3:54am | IP Logged
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Willa,
Sorry it took me so long to get back with you. Even this thanks/reply won't be adequate as it is the middle of the night for me right now. But I didn't want to wait any longer to say thanks. Thanks! There is so much said here in your replies that I was 'looking' for! The missing elements to my considerations on the topic. You have organized my whole perspective on these questions and managed to put them in the proper light as well. Whew! I really appreciate it! It all makes so much more sense now.
The David Issacs book has been on my must-be-read list for a while and I WISH I had time for good ol' St. Thomas A. right now. Seems like that saint always has the answers I'm looking for.
Knowing now that Alder was a 'late' convert is helpful.
I'll be re-reading your reply for more days to come in an effort to keep my thoughts organized. Nothing like mommy-brain for scattering thoughts!
As an experiment, I pulled out the little book trilogy from Seton, I believe it is a 'Faith and Freedom' reader. _Here We Come, This is Our Home, Here We Are Again_ and got Mike excited about the action in the pictures. Then we started discussing the words, and before he knew it he had read the first 44 pages and just barely broke a sweat. He glowed all weekend. I'm going to try to pick up on that momentum again this week but gently, gently.
I can't thank you enough for helping me sort through this parenting/teaching challenge this past week. I've learned so much from you and all the other ladies who have replied. It may not seem much to most people, but it felt like a huge step forward for me!
I praise God for you all!
__________________
In Christ the King through Mary our Mother,
Amie
Blessed with an awesome hubby and Mom of ds10, dd7, dd3 and dd 10months.
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Willa
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| Posted: April 20 2005 at 11:17am | IP Logged
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Dear Amie,
I don't have much time to read St Thomas Aquinas either. A couple of years ago I found this page on the web:
http://www.vaxxine.com/hyoomik/aquinas/educatio.html
which gives a summary of Aquinas' thoughts on education. I really liked his thoughts on parents in education (which of course has helped developed the thoughts of the Church on this) and also his thoughts on "working with the natural learning process". He has two categories, of "discipline" and "discovery" and says that discovery -- what the person learns by himself -- is better than the instruction the teacher gives, but not usually enough. Most of us need at least some direct instruction, right?
A quote:
"When a man learns something by his own unaided natural power, this is discovery (inventio), but when he is helped by a teacher (as a patient is helped by a physician), this is schooling (disciplina)."
"Learning, then, can come about either by nature or by human skill (arte). When learning is aided by the human skill of the teacher, this skill will work the same way that nature does. If a doctor sees that nature heals a certain condition when there is heat, he follows nature in using heat. Likewise, the teacher tries to lead a person along the path by which he would most effectively learn by himself. "
Keeping that balance in mind really helps me to steer between the two aspects of learning and also keep my priorities straight. It was also a revelation to me that the historical Church acknowledged the importance of "learning" as opposed to "teaching". Sometimes, it seems like Catholics can get the impression that the Catholic Church teaches a 50's style of education with textbooks and lots of drill and pouring facts into the child. Not always, not necessarily, not primarily is that the way the Church thinks about what goes on in the learning process, or so I have started understanding.
Sorry to get so longwinded again!
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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amiefriedl
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| Posted: April 20 2005 at 9:52pm | IP Logged
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Willa,
Your long-windedness makes my day! I just now put my son to bed. We spent the 12-15 minutes before that on the couch with him really reading to me. And he is ENJOYING it. I'm still in shock. Boom, just like that. I relaxed, did a great deal of reflecting on what educating him really means to us both and then, wham! there he goes.
"If a doctor sees that nature heals a certain condition when there is heat, he follows nature in using heat. Likewise, the teacher tries to lead a person along the path by which he would most effectively learn by himself. "
The quotes you gave me are indeed gems! It seems so obvious; leading a person along the path by which he will most effectively learn by himself. When these little rays of light shine through darkness of my pea brain I feel like I've had a glimse of Heaven itself. I betcha if I go through Elizabeth's book a third time, I'll really start to pick things up. 
I'm going to follow your link. After that will be to finish up Holt's books in the que and then probably hit the David Issacs book. Thanks so much for the follow up comments.
You know, it is **really nice** to know that the church teaches more on education than the 50's style stuff as you mentioned. I'd never seen that perspective. With 2000 years to mull through it all, one would think that there would be much more than that, and not just at the collegiate level.
More, More! I want to learn more! I feel blessed beyond words to be exposed to all this great info this early in the homeschooling game. If I "had" to just use a canned curriculum and simply be recreating the classroom at home I think I would have thrown in the towel pretty soon.
(All excessive gushing caused by my current 'high' from hearing my son read to me. Please forgive.)
God bless and long live Pope Benedict XVI.
__________________
In Christ the King through Mary our Mother,
Amie
Blessed with an awesome hubby and Mom of ds10, dd7, dd3 and dd 10months.
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Need advice with ’contradictions’ ;)
