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Syncletica
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| Posted: March 07 2012 at 1:31pm | IP Logged
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My intelligent dd11 is using Seton's English 6 book, and struggling with the concepts. (Nominative case, objective case, direct/indirect objects/appositives, etc. in said cases....).I don't recall the concepts very well myself. Is there a Grammar resource book that is laid out well and that would be beneficial? Should I even be concerned about these concepts? Thoughts?
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: March 07 2012 at 1:54pm | IP Logged
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Sycletica wrote:
| Should I even be concerned about these concepts? Thoughts? |
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And, THAT's what I think about 11 year-olds spending their time with such concepts  ....unless they really ENJOY such things...then, by all means...have at it! But, REALLY ...to focus on this when they are just learning to write, seems so silly to me. Wait a couple years.
The only reason schools teach these things at this age is because it's something that can be TESTED and MEASURED, so they teach it...because it can actually be TESTED and GRADED. So, they spend their time on this instead of good writing skills which can't be graded with a computer. It's not the same in our homes.
And, teaching BASIC GRAMMAR seems reasonable....but Nominative, Appositives, etc.....not nec. for a beginning writer.
 I guess that would be my not-so-humble-opinion. 
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kristinannie
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I don't plan to do any grammar until high school (Analytical Grammar). If I do something earlier, it might be finding nouns in a paragraph of Primary Language Lessons, etc. I would definitely not let her get frustrated over this. Maybe you could give it a rest and come back to it later. They also have Junior Analytical Grammar as well.
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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 07 2012 at 10:46pm | IP Logged
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Syncletica wrote:
| Should I even be concerned about these concepts? Thoughts? |
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We used Seton 5 our 1st year homeschooling and it was the first time my oldest DD cried every.single.time about schoolwork. She just did NOT get it. And this from a child that has loved school since pre-K and loved every single worksheet and every little workbook. Obviously we ditched it about half-way through the year. Just know you're not alone in your thoughts. We now are doing informal grammar but next year I might consider a more "formal" program but it still won't be anything like that particular Seton book.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: March 08 2012 at 7:46am | IP Logged
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Syncletica wrote:
| My intelligent dd11 is using Seton's English 6 book, and struggling with the concepts. (Nominative case, objective case, direct/indirect objects/appositives, etc. in said cases....). |
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Since you're asking  ......I would shelve that workbook in a New-York-minute. I would ease off on formal grammar for a bit to give myself time to consider if a program is necessary? What I want to use (and perhaps start next year)?
I do not consider those concepts INTEGRAL in education. I do teach them, but we approach these concepts one-at-a-time, not within a workbook format (through dictation lessons) and when the student is not working on building a crucial language arts skill -- like beginning writing. Beginning writers should focus their energy on WRITING!!!!!! Not appositives!!!
Grammar concepts I expect my 11yo's to know and apply correctly in their writing:* Sentences begin with capital letters.
* A sentence is one complete thought.
* Identify the subject and predicate of a sentence.
* Every sentence ends in punctuation.
* Commas separate items in a list.
* Using a comma and a coordinating conjunction in a sentence (why).
* Using a semicolon in place of a comma and a coordinating conjunction.
* Rules about using quotation marks in a sentence (where the comma goes, where the punctuation goes).
* Rules about apostrophes ** they are used to show possession (and how to use in the case of plural possessive--> boys' bat
** they are used to replace missing letters (as in a contraction) All of this is within the context of writing. It isn't disconnected and disjointed in a workbook which really seems so separate from writing.
So connected is our grammar learning to our writing, that I created an editing/proofing checklist for my kids. I'll share it in case you're interested: 2012-03-08_074253_Editing_and_Proofing_Checklist.pdf
I print it front to back, laminate it, and keep it on the writing center desk. The (writing) kids are required to go through my proofing checklist BEFORE they turn any writing (written narrations, essays) in to me. This checklist contains the minimum repertoire of grammar I expect a student to be able to execute in their writing. I teach one concept at a time. The child works on executing it in their writing (this could take a few weeks). When they show me they can use a concept correctly, we move on to the next one.
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JennGM
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| Posted: March 08 2012 at 9:10am | IP Logged
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That list is terrific, Jen! Love it!
I'd also say that grammar taught like that is too abstract, even for an older child. Diagramming is applied grammar, and very visual.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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kristacecilia
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| Posted: March 08 2012 at 11:25am | IP Logged
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I feel like this is one of those threads I am desperately going to want to find in a couple years.
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Becky Parker
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I think I need someone to reassure me that my kids will do fine in college without the level of formal grammar that programs like Voyages and Seton teaches. I loath grammar, mostly because I was not taught the level of grammar that my kids are expected to learn from these programs. I don't get it, so it's difficult for me to help my kids get it. UGh!
Love your list Jen!! It just seems so much more practical and doable. 
And Jennifer (Miller) do you think teaching grammar with diagramming is sufficient? I know MODG uses Voyages AND a diagramming book.
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: March 08 2012 at 1:34pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for the PDF, Jen  .
My sons, who are 13 and 16, and I are enjoying diagramming sentences. Makes the abstract, concrete. I also think their male brains can relate to the process of diagramming, especially when I add competition to the mix.
There really is no way I would expect such abstract ideas to be grasped by an 11yo...and, to what end?
Love,
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Recommended Grammar Book?
