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kristinannie
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| Posted: Feb 09 2012 at 9:21am | IP Logged
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I am planning on doing copywork next year and plan to just choose copywork selections from our read alouds in different subjects and use Startwrite to begin with tracing and then move into copying later in the week (to start out). I see a lot of people on the The Well Trained Mind forums raving about WWE (of course...  ). Anyway, I was wondering if this program is worth the price. It would be nice to have everything put together for me. It would be more likely to get done consistently that way, but it seems a little contrived to me. I don't know how CM it is because I haven't ever seen a copy. Thanks!
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Kristie 4
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I think, imho, it makes copywork and CM things look way more complicated than they are! We were able to take a peak at it at our library...
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Kristie in Canada
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Maryan
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We are not doing it this year as I am doing an intense grammar year (with poetry and narration), but we have done WWE and will do it again next year. Hmm... and I have pulled out snippets for my first grader this year.
The hardcopy text of WWE -- I think the title is WWE Strong Fundamentals -- explains the method that you could apply to any books that you are using. This would be the non-complicated CM version, imo, because you could use whatever books you were using and it would just give you a pattern to follow. My kids like patterns (for example: read, copywork, narrate, grammar pointers). I wouldn't buy this book - I would check your library first to see as Kristie did to see what your first opinion is.
In 2008, when boy #5 was born and boy #1 was only 6, Peace Hill Press came out with WWE and I decided to buy it to help me make sure copywork and narratons got done. Moreover, my life has only gotten complicated with high risk doctor's appts and trying to get meals on the table, so I have enjoyed the more complicated planned-out-for-you version that is found in her workbooks. For us, the natural CM method has had to combine a more formal classical shape to make sure that we're covering our bases? (If that makes sense?? I really need a checklist, or a laid out plan... and there's just not enough time in my day to custom make my own anymore!!) I got really frustrated with Start Write because of the one page thing. And I never had enough time to do it like I wanted to do it. And sometimes you just need to look in the mirror and see who you are: and currently it's not Charlotte Mason or Jen Mackintosh!! 
So WWE has filled a void that I can't seem to fill right now. So in that sense her workbooks are less complicated for us.
CONS
* While it is a little disjointed because sometimes we're reading snippets from stories we are currently reading, it also can spark an interest in a book that we haven't read.
* I also do not use it as written. We have only done WWE 1 -3 (the dictation in WWE 4 looks daunting for MOM -- mind you not my kids, me!!!) For WWE 3, I split it into a two year adventure...or skip a year, and do WWE 3 in 4th grade... which is what I am doing with my current 3rd grader. Also, I am gentle with my guys in the writing and reading department, so they are not ready for copywork/studied dictation right at the beginning of 2nd grade... more like half way through. So I tweak how we use the books.
* Also since I rip apart the book to photocopy it for each of my kids (copyright allows), I had to turn the teacher pages into a notebook because the spine was all messed up. So I put all WWE 1- 3 teacher pages into one notebook, so I could have this all at my fingertips. This was a summer project.
What I like:
*Discussion questions with answers for every story snippet. So if I had my 3rd or 4th grader read a selection on their own... and I haven't had a chance to read it. I can still ask them questions and know the answer. Some days this is needed.
* A nice selection of stories (can't speak about the selection in WWE4)
* Lined pages with the copywork and/or dictation already laid out (fulfilling my checklist)
* Grammar questions based on the reading already planned
A set plan depending upon the level: read selection, copywork,read selection, dictation (for example).
* A gentle introduction into writing in your own words with mom's help. They even give models or suggestions of good narrations for people like me who sometimes have a brain freeze!!
Full disclosure: I think I'm a Peace Hill Press fan as I have enjoyed Peace Hill Press' First Language Lessons a lot. Story of the World has to be edited, so we have only used SOTW I in its entirety; SOTW II, I bought in download version, so I could edit out the chapters that I didn't want my kids to read.
To make a LOOONG post even longer, here's my summaton: I think if you like Start Write, have the time to type in your own copywork, and do narrations with your kids with your own book selections... that would be more CM and fun. I can't do that right now, so WWE has helped my Mama Guilt. They do narrate; they do copywork; they do dictation. And we've met some new books through the little snippets.
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Maryan
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kristinannie
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| Posted: Feb 09 2012 at 12:33pm | IP Logged
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Maryan, thanks for your post. You sound similar to me. I love the idea of CM copywork, but also am planning on getting pregnant again and have been put on bedrest in the past so I am also looking for ease of use. I will have to take a close look at WWE when I go to my homeschool convention next month. I am glad to hear that it isn't contrary to CM.
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MNMommy
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My experience is almost identical to Maryan's. I added my comments below.
Maryan wrote:
And sometimes you just need to look in the mirror and see who you are: and currently it's not Charlotte Mason or Jen Mackintosh!!
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I, too, am neither CM or Jen Mackintosh. I am a tired, average mom with 5 kids 9yo & under.
Maryan wrote:
So WWE has filled a void that I can't seem to fill right now. So in that sense her workbooks are less complicated for us.
CONS
* While it is a little disjointed because sometimes we're reading snippets from stories we are currently reading, it also can spark an interest in a book that we haven't read.
* I also do not use it as written. We have only done WWE 1 -3 (the dictation in WWE 4 looks daunting for MOM -- mind you not my kids, me!!!) For WWE 3, I split it into a two year adventure...or skip a year, and do WWE 3 in 4th grade... which is what I am doing with my current 3rd grader. Also, I am gentle with my guys in the writing and reading department, so they are not ready for copywork/studied dictation right at the beginning of 2nd grade... more like half way through. So I tweak how we use the books.
* Also since I rip apart the book to photocopy it for each of my kids (copyright allows), I had to turn the teacher pages into a notebook because the spine was all messed up. So I put all WWE 1- 3 teacher pages into one notebook, so I could have this all at my fingertips. This was a summer project. |
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We start WWE1 in 2nd grade and use it a year "behind" until 4th grade. My 4th grader is now also using Writing Tales 1.
I, too, tore the book apart and spiral bound the teacher pages. I am also buying the electronic student pages as my 2nd dc comes up through the line, so I can print the pages as I want.
Maryan wrote:
What I like:
*Discussion questions with answers for every story snippet. So if I had my 3rd or 4th grader read a selection on their own... and I haven't had a chance to read it. I can still ask them questions and know the answer. Some days this is needed.
* A nice selection of stories (can't speak about the selection in WWE4)
* Lined pages with the copywork and/or dictation already laid out (fulfilling my checklist)
* Grammar questions based on the reading already planned
A set plan depending upon the level: read selection, copywork,read selection, dictation (for example).
* A gentle introduction into writing in your own words with mom's help. They even give models or suggestions of good narrations for people like me who sometimes have a brain freeze!!
To make a LOOONG post even longer, here's my summaton: I think if you like Start Write, have the time to type in your own copywork, and do narrations with your kids with your own book selections... that would be more CM and fun. I can't do that right now, so WWE has helped my Mama Guilt. They do narrate; they do copywork; they do dictation. And we've met some new books through the little snippets. |
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I agree completely. If you have to the time to organize all the materials at the right levels for your dc, it would be more fun and connected. If you are me, however, and find that laid-out, prepared materials are more likely to get done, the workbooks are fabulous. I faltered constantly with narrations before starting WWE, and WWE provided the training that I desperately needed.
In my full disclosure, I must admit that I am now leaning toward classical writing programs.
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Jennifer
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 10 2012 at 3:17pm | IP Logged
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Maryan wrote:
| And sometimes you just need to look in the mirror and see who you are |
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This is such a beautiful statement and reminds me of JPII's encouragement to families: Families, become what you are. This is so liberating - taking ideas, enjoying them, and translating them into my home, or gratefully letting them go altogether.
MNMommy wrote:
Maryan wrote:
And sometimes you just need to look in the mirror and see who you are: and currently it's not Charlotte Mason or Jen Mackintosh!!
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I, too, am neither CM or Jen Mackintosh. I am a tired, average mom with 5 kids 9yo & under. |
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I'm not sure I'm the "Jen Mackintosh" that you all are envisioning.  I am ordinary, and happy and relieved to be so. I'm no super-mom; not a bionic CM'er. Let me step down off this pedestal carefully, one step at a time, because it I don't I WILL fall off of it flat on my face....
I face challenges,
have crisis pregnancies,
cry through lessons mourning loved ones,
fail to write menus,
neglect laundry,
toss lesson plans in favor of run-outside-days,
am challenged to get my teen to the pro-life Rosary and driving test,
exhausted listening to my chatty-Kathy little person.....
AND use language arts tools, too, when they fit in my home!
I am someone that enjoys CM's methods and philosophies and every time I work with them they seem to fit better, be more intuitive, work with the grain rather than against it, bend rather than break, flatter rather than force. So I suppose it inspires and motivates me to keep working within.
I think it's a great thing to recognize family individuality, and it's fantastic and RIGHT to find tools, books, approaches, methods (or a blending thereof) that fits YOUR family. While I truly enjoy sharing our experiences using CM, I can't be a poster child. I'm more eclectic than you think, more loosey-goosey-unschooly than shows on the surface, have fun flying by the seat of my pants, can relax if life interrupts and drop plans without the blink of an eye, am a girl with a classical bent that might surprise you, and I'm not afraid to ditch it all in favor of God's plans!
I'm afraid that after all of that I don't have any experience with WWE, so I'll completely defer to these fantastic moms and their experiences!  I say hurray for finding what works, what doesn't, and embracing that person in the mirror since she's the one that God lovingly chose from the beginning to mother and educate her children!
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Jen Mackintosh
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kristinannie
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| Posted: Feb 10 2012 at 3:23pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Jen, for your honesty! I am planning on doing my own copywork, etc, but just want to know of a backup in case it doesn't get done consistently! And I have a classical bent too... I think that CM was, at heart, a classical educator. She just went about it a different way and I love that about her! I will teach Latin and, almost definitely Greek, but I am in love with the style of CM for my family at this time...and hopefully forever. 
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Feb 10 2012 at 3:28pm | IP Logged
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Maryan wrote:
| I got really frustrated with Start Write because of the one page thing. |
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I get frustrated with Start Write, too. It's not as flexible as I'd like and prone to freaking out on me. BUT, you just go to the top of the page and choose "Insert" and then select from the drop down "Page" and you can make the document as long as you like.
Someone mentioned an 8 page limit in a thread recently, but I just saved and printed out a 15 page document this week, so I'm not sure if that varies according to when you bought it. I don't have the newest version, I've had it a couple of years, but it must not be the oldest either.
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Lindsay
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Maryan
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| Posted: Feb 10 2012 at 4:33pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
I face challenges,
have crisis pregnancies,
cry through lessons mourning loved ones,
fail to write menus,
neglect laundry,
toss lesson plans in favor of run-outside-days,
am challenged to get my teen to the pro-life Rosary and driving test,
exhausted listening to my chatty-Kathy little person.....
AND use language arts tools, too, when they fit in my home! |
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I don't believe it!! You.are.not.allowed.to.take.off.your.super.cape.
However, this goes without saying:
Mackfam wrote:
| I am someone that enjoys CM's methods and philosophies and every time I work with them they seem to fit better, be more intuitive, work with the grain rather than against it, bend rather than break, flatter rather than force. So I suppose it inspires and motivates me to keep working within. |
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That's what comes across... and, by the way: nope, I don't think you've set yourself on a pedestal, so you are not allowed to fall off some sort of structure that you didn't climb!!
And I hope you aren't offended that I dropped your name (if so I'm sorry!!); you have graciously shared with us what CM looks like in your house... and you are one of my beacons that I use to see what CM looks like.  I'm grateful.
Mackfam wrote:
| I'm more eclectic than you think, more loosey-goosey-unschooly than shows on the surface, have fun flying by the seat of my pants, can relax if life interrupts and drop plans without the blink of an eye, am a girl with a classical bent that might surprise you, and I'm not afraid to ditch it all in favor of God's plans! |
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And I truly believe you are loosey-goosey... because I think you have a natural flow to you.  I *totally* can be too! And that's exactly why I need WWE right now... it's just one of those "busy" times where flying by the seat of my pants doesn't lead to creativity and inspiration, it leads to paint on the carpet, huge gaps in my boys' learning, and frozen dinners. (Okay, actually, the paint on the carpet and the frozen dinners are happening no matter what).
And for some people that might make their life more complicated than doing it themselves!
CrunchyMom wrote:
I get frustrated with Start Write, too. It's not as flexible as I'd like and prone to freaking out on me. BUT, you just go to the top of the page and choose "Insert" and then select from the drop down "Page" and you can make the document as long as you like.
Someone mentioned an 8 page limit in a thread recently, but I just saved and printed out a 15 page document this week, so I'm not sure if that varies according to when you bought it. I don't have the newest version, I've had it a couple of years, but it must not be the oldest either. |
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And Lindsey! Good to know! I have a new computer, so maybe I'll try to load Start Write back up this summer and see if I can get that option to work!
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Maryan
Mom to 6 boys & 1 girl: JP('01), B ('03), M('05), L('06), Ph ('08), M ('10), James born 5/1/12
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anitamarie
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| Posted: Feb 10 2012 at 8:31pm | IP Logged
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We've used WWE with great success around here. I am currently using WWE 1 with my 2nd grader. We love it. I used WWE 3 with my then 4th grader last year and we both liked it. It really is nice to have the copywork right there.
We also use First Language Lessons for the Well-Trained Mind. Short and sweet grammar lessons, and they dovetail off each other nicely. If there is copywork in FLL on the same day we do it in WWE, we just skip it for FLL. I think that the new versions of FLL have now been coordinated to some extent with WWE. Just something to keep in mind.
Definitely buy the download also. So easy to print it off and have it right there.
Anita
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 13 2012 at 7:58pm | IP Logged
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Maryan wrote:
I don't believe it!! You.are.not.allowed.to.take.off.your.super.cape.
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ok. 
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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Betsy
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| Posted: Feb 13 2012 at 11:12pm | IP Logged
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kristinannie wrote:
| . I think that CM was, at heart, a classical educator. She just went about it a different way and I love that about her! |
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I think that Classical Education and CM are fundamentally different. The CM Conference I went to last year made a point to educate on the differences in quite a few lectors--it was very interesting. They both use much of the same resources and vocabulary, so to speak, but their pedagogy in how a teacher should function in a child's learning is very, very different as well as how they see a child.
With that being said, there certainly isn't any right or wrong in how we each teach our children. And, it's not tremendously important in how things are labeled. But, I just wanted to point out that in a pure sense of the terms Classical and CM they are quite different.
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Betsy
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| Posted: Feb 13 2012 at 11:24pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
I am someone that enjoys CM's methods and philosophies and every time I work with them they seem to fit better, be more intuitive, work with the grain rather than against it, bend rather than break, flatter rather than force. So I suppose it inspires and motivates me to keep working within.
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This is really beautiful and very true. I think the hardest part about CM is that its not a method of leaning that we grew up with or have a lot of practical familiarity with, so there is a tendency to make a mountain out of a mole hill (I am speaking personally here!)
With each new child I realize that much of what CM talks about is just so natural. Each year I have a deeper and deeper aha moment, and I realize that in almost every situation I was REALLY out thinking CM! The other realizetion that I have made is that most of what I though was impssible or too hard, I was just doing to early. Sometimes this was child dependent and sometimes I just totally missed when CM recommended to start certain things.
This is rather off topic, I just though that Jens insight was so true and beautiful!
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Becky Parker
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Betsy wrote:
The other realizetion that I have made is that most of what I though was impssible or too hard, I was just doing to early. Sometimes this was child dependent and sometimes I just totally missed when CM recommended to start certain things.
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I think this is so easy to do! I "threw in the CM towel" at the end of last year thinking my kids were just not cut out for it. Too much reading when they couldn't read yet. Written narrations brought tears, even though I thought it was time for them to transition to that. Now, after 1/2 a year, I'm looking back at CM and wishing I would have stuck with it.
Since there really isn't a teacher's guide that is broken down by age/grade I think it's sometimes hard to judge when a child should be doing different things. Pushing them before they are ready causes misery for both the child and the mom!
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Becky Parker
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Becky Parker wrote:
there really isn't a teacher's guide that is broken down by age/grade I think it's sometimes hard to judge when a child should be doing different things. Pushing them before they are ready causes misery for both the child and the mom!
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Coming back to comment on my comment above . I don't think I said that right. REally, I think the problem for me is that I HAVE had teacher's manuals and guides tell me where my kids SHOULD be at certain times so I get frustrated and worried. I decided CM wasn't going to work for my ds in 5th this year because I was still having to read things to him. It was way too time consuming. I just told myself it wasn't for everyone and went with a workbook based curriculum. He likes the workbooks just fine as he can just get his work done quickly, but he learns SO much more when he reads living books. So, just when I thought CM wasn't going to work because this ds just "isn't a reader", half a year later and I can't keep him in books. I needed to be more patient I guess.
Coming back to the original question, I have not used WWE so I probably should not even be posting in this thread , but I wanted to share that one of my kid's favorite parts about doing copywork is guessing from where their copywork came. Copywork went from being a tedious thing to kind of exciting for them. The conversation might go something like:
"Hey! My quote is from the HObbit! What's your's Matt?"
"I think mine is from Katy And The Big Snow"
"Read it ... yep you're right. I remember that one."
Sometimes their copywork is not taken from fiction and they share the information, or the quote from a famous person.
Now it doesn't always go like this. Sometimes it's more like "MOOOOMMMMM! Do I really have to copy this passage from Henry V? I'm so tired of memorizing this!" But, for the most part, I enjoy hearing their copywork discussions. . When I was using copywork workbooks, they just opened, did the copywork, and moved on to something else.
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Becky
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keac
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I can't answer the question about WWE; we've not used it.
But, I can make a few suggestions for resources that have helped here! I love the concept of copywork as Charlotte employs it; but the daily or weekly selection of materials makes me feel at loose ends. I will use a current poetry selection or verses from our current Shakespeare or a Bible verse...when these occur to do naturally in the course of our readings. But I don't go searching them out, does that make sense? Sometimes, that's just more brain power than I've got available!!
I regularly use the Spelling Wisdom series from Simply Charlotte Mason for copywork. This work is meant for prepared dictation lessons. But I've found the selections are lovely thoughts and lend themselves well to copywork as well. I just don't use the same passages for both at the same time. And more often than not, they are ready for a longer, more complex copywork assignment than I would use for their dictation at that time. I like that I can pull it off the shelf and hand it to a child along with their copywork journal. (And its available in ebook format as well.)
Queen Homeschool Supply has some nice books arranged by theme like manners or animals. I've not used these but they look nice.
I would think if you searched online at Google Books or Gutenberg, you might even be able to find free books such as one that we've used titled "Graded Selections for Memorizing." I would search under the terms recitation, memorization, transcription.
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Erica Sanchez
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I'm so glad you mentioned Spelling Wisdom, Karen. It's what I was going to recommend.
And, Betsy, I appreciate your comments regarding the differences between a Classical Education and a Charlotte Mason education. Thank you!
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Erica in San Diego
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: WWE
