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MacBeth
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...do his German, but instead he fixed the in-ground sprinkler system that has not worked for two years. 
So, what do you do when procrastination becomes a worthwhile project?
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MacBeth in NY
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Bridget
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Well, his future wife will probably appreciate that he wants to fix things. It will probably be more useful than German. 
I guess there is an obedience issue here... but I've let my kids skip school work to do physical work before. Maybe you can pretend you planned it that way.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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MicheleQ
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MacBeth wrote:
...do his German, but instead he fixed the in-ground sprinkler system that has not worked for two years.
So, what do you do when procrastination becomes a worthwhile project? |
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Thank him sincerely for the wonderful job that he has done and then tell him though you appreciate it there unfortunately still has to be a consequence for his disobedience. Even procrastination is disobedience if you in fact told him to do it right then. As the mother of soon to be four teenaged sons I can tell you from experience that if it isn't addressed it will be tried again (and again and again. . .), and although that may bring about a rash of completed home improvement projects  it can also send the message that it's OK to disobey if your intentions are good or you do something else that is worthwhile.
This doesn't have to be harsh (and I couldn't imagine YOU being harsh anyway) just matter of fact - "Thank you, you did a great job but unfortunately there's still the issue of your not doing your German when I told you to."
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
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Elizabeth
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Did the German get finished before the German was due?
My husband operates this way. We can be expecting 70 people for a party and he decides it's the perfect time to clean all those little crevices in blender base...However, he functions in a very deadline-intense world. His approach is unorthodox--he works when the rest of the world sleeps; he rolls out of bed in the morning and doesn't leave his computer for the rest of the day if necessary (this means he manages very large contracts wearing his bathrobe), but he gets it done. He's very creative and very impulsive.
We've had long talks about what would have helped him in terms of child training. His mother was extremely routine and schedule oriented. She kept him doing things on time and in an orderly fashion. He was very obedient. And when he went to college, he floundered for the first two years. Her external time management did nothing for him. Trip has a German teacher. If it doesn't get done, she'll impose real consequences. He'll figure that one out pretty quickly. If he has to stay up really late doing German because he spent his daylight hours fixing the sprinkler, he'll be tired the next day. But maybe, like my dh, or my son, he thinks better at night and book work is easier after some outdoor physical, hands on time.
The great thing about foreign language tutors is that they can impose some real life outside limits and restrctions so that these boys can figure out for themselves how to manage their time ( I'm winking at my teenager's spanish tutor who reads these boards and has had to play the mean teacher with Michael more than once--I'm so grateful for her dose of reality).
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
| We've had long talks about what would have helped him in terms of child training. His mother was extremely routine and schedule oriented. She kept him doing things on time and in an orderly fashion. He was very obedient. And when he went to college, he floundered for the first two years. Her external time management did nothing for him. |
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I don't think external time management works if it isn't coupled with training in self-management. In fact, I think it makes things worse because the child comes to depend on it and doesn't learn to manage himself.
But that doesn't mean I can let my children always do things their way just because it's the way they "work". Life in the real world isn't like that. At least not for most people. The world imposes time restraints on us whether we like it or not. But it goes beyond that, WAY beyond that. My goal is not to crush my children's creativity but to help them learn how to channel their God given gifts in a such a way that allows them to function well and achieve what they need to while taking into consideration the needs of OTHER people.
If I were so inclined to disregard the needs of my family my schedule would mean staying up late, sleeping in until I felt like rising and doing what *I* wanted and only what was necessary when I felt like it. But that's not what God calls me to and it's not what I want my children to think they are called to either.
Love isn't about seeking personal satisfaction. Jesus reveals the depth of God's love from the cross and it is love in self donation that assists us in living virtuous lives and becoming the person God has intended us to be.
God bless!
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Leonie
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I think, for us, its less of applying discipline to show how the world works than it is an act of reaching the heart of teens, their motivation - what CM called I am, I can, I ought, I will.
Michele, I liked hearing your approach. It differs from what works in my family in that we go the exhortation and encouragement route.  This seems to make virutes stick and become self applied for us, so far - so that, yes, my older sons do some university assignments that they are less than interested in and get up for work when they don't feel like it. We didn't use consequences to train them in this behaviour but we did use example(s) and discussion and exhortation and literature and heroes and prayers and the sacraments. As I know you do, too, Michele.
And we individualize(d) this approach, as Elizabeth describes, for each son and the way God has made him.
Elizabeth and Michele, your posts have encouraged me now to reflect more on these issues! lol!
I am reading Reaping the Harvest by homeschooler Diana Waring - about teens and encouragement and principle based parenting. A Protestant book and very interesting so far - I am only one third through the book, though!
Leonie in Sydney
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Elizabeth
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I don't think my children are inconsiderate of the needs of other people, nor do I think that they seek personal satisfaction to the detriment of self donation. Trip didn't take off and go fishing for the day. He fixed a broken sprinkler system. In this instance, there was someone else to dole out real consequences for improper time management(if that's what it was and he didn't finish the homework)--the German teacher.
You are right Michele, external time management systems don't work unless the child is trained to impose that discipline upon himself. However, life in the real world can look differently in different families and for different children. I scheduled all my college classes early in the day. That's when I work best. My dh tended towards later in the day. That's when he works best. I have a child who gets up before I do some days and is already finished with his seatwork by 7. I have another who reads very late into the night. He works better if he spends the morning do yard work. My husband did learn to meet the demands of the outside world. He learned that as soon as he left home when he found the adjustement to the demands of college very difficult. I think he didn't fail altogether because, despite the fact that his parents did too much forhim, they also instilled in him a sense of what was right and they set an example of very hardworking adults. He always knew that grownups do what is right--they work hard; they support their families well and they get the job done. He has worked hard--consistently and successfully--in a competitive field. *I* have had to learn that he might not do it according to my schedule (whichi incidentally resembles that of a Naval officer's wife because that was my example) and my sense of order (that would be "shipshape" order  ). Just because he doesn't leave the house at 8 and come home at 5 every afternoon, doesn't mean his lifestyle is sinful. It's just different. I have to remind myself that my home is not a factory and that we are all created differently. We all have differing needs for quiet and company, for physical exercise and rest, for written work and oral work.
When I have an idea for a column, when the words are all lining up just so, I have an ovewhelming need to sit and get it on paper. The laundry might be wrinkling when I do that. But I do it. And, honestly, I do think that I'm answering a call to do so. Frequently, that column blesses someone because they were feeling the same way and my words gave their feelings expression. The laundry will get done too. Sometimes, it gets really backed up--but it does get finished. It's a fine discernment and one I don't always do well. But, my hunch is that Trip had an idea about how to make that sprinkler work. He was engrossed in his work and hyper-focused. Those are traits to encourage as well. They are also traits to respect. He wouldn't be the first child to exhibit those traits to the frustration of his mother. Biographies of Edison and the Wright brothers never fail to mention exasperated (and suportive) mothers. And Edison didn't work well in a lockstep, institutional environment where time was rigidly managed and a certain approach to work expected. Like teaching to a child's learning style, I think considering a passionate interest and giving time and space to accomplish a self-chosen project is important. It is an area where homeschooling can be a tremendous benefit if the mother allows it to be so.
Another consideration is intent. When my child disobeys, I consider the intent. Did he selfishly and willfully do something because he couldn't die to himself and he wanted only his selfish pleasure? That's far different from becoming engrossed in a worthwhile project and losing track of time. Sally Clarkson is so good at explaining and encouraging this kind of empathy towards our children.
I'm not big on punishment. I think there are natural consequences and I've found that, for my children, the worst consequence of all is the knowledge that they've disappointed their parents or hurt someone else. We talk to them. We explain why we are asking what we are asking and we seek to understand what's going on in their heads. That only gets easier as they get older because they can articulate those things. And the relationship we've bulit based on the premise that we expect and assume the best about each other, yields conversations that are fruitful. They mess up. And we are quick to correct them and to impose limits if necessary. We mess up and we show them how that causes a struggle.
I still don't really think Trip messed up. Tell me, MacBeth, did the German homework get finished?
Oh, and I read that Timothy is going to be a seminarian for your diocese Michele! Congratulations to all of you--clearly, you're doing something very well
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MacBeth
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Oh, goodness! He did get his work done well in time.
The situation was like this:
I wanted him to do his German on Monday rather than Tuesday (when he usually does it automatically) because the weather was supposed to be good on Tuesday. He always does his German on Tuesday. Always, always. And I guess that's how it works best for him, but with such a nice weather report, I thought he'd like to get it done so he could enjoy the day.
So, sure, he was procrastinating, but was it his problem, or mine? I would not really call it an obedience problem, since I did not push it, I just suggested it.
If I disturb his routine, is it a discipline issue, or my problem for not understanding him better  ?
What would the unschoolers say?
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MacBeth in NY
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MicheleQ
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Leonie, it's funny that you use CM's motto. I was going to say the very same thing! I completely agree about reaching the heart of teens and their motivation. My experience is that most of the time it isn't about willful disobedience but just that they weren't thinking. I understand that and I tell them so but I also believe that disobedience in any form still has to be addressed. I have two adult sons living at home and yes they get up when they don't want to and go to work and school and do what has to be done. They learned this through all those things you mentioned (example, discussion, exhortation, literature and heroes, prayer and the sacraments) and discipline. But I don't necessarily equate discipline with punishment. We use discipline and correction. We aren't harsh with our children. We work to be loving and understanding and I know all of you here do as well.
I am quite sure my children wouldn't function well in a lockstep, institutional environment where time is rigidly managed and a certain approach to work expected. We have order and a schedule (more of a routine really though some things are scheduled) but we aren't rigid. We DO teach to our children's learning styles, and we DO give time and space for our children to follow their interests and accomplish self-chosen projects. Those projects are all over the house and the plethora of library books attests to the wide and varied interests we all have.
Elizabeth, MacBeth asked the question "what do you do when procrastination becomes a worthwhile project?". I took this to mean what do I do when one of my children does this (and they do!), so I answered it that way. My comments about self-donation and consideration of others was in relation to my family and our experience. It wasn't meant to imply anything about anyone else. In all this discussion I was NOT attempting to make a judgment on Trip's actions and I think (hope) MacBeth knows that.
While I agree with you that intent in disobedience is important I firmly believe that disobedience still needs to be addressed (in whatever way your family does that). I have a brother in law who is the nicest guy you would want to meet. He is always very well intentioned but he's also in prison for the 3rd time in 10 years. He never learned discipline and all his intentions mean nothing because his actions consistently land him in major trouble. Again, this example is not meant to imply anything about anyone else, it's simply an example (and a glaring one in the lives of my family) that shows how a lack of discipline can lead to a life of punishment and unhappiness for many, many people. Not just yourself but the people who love and care about you.
And now I have little ones asking for a story so I am done.
God bless,
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MicheleQ
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MacBeth wrote:
The situation was like this:
I wanted him to do his German on Monday rather than Tuesday (when he usually does it automatically) because the weather was supposed to be good on Tuesday. He always does his German on Tuesday. Always, always. And I guess that's how it works best for him, but with such a nice weather report, I thought he'd like to get it done so he could enjoy the day.
So, sure, he was procrastinating, but was it his problem, or mine? I would not really call it an obedience problem, since I did not push it, I just suggested it. |
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Well now this is different. I wouldn't call this an obedience issue either. In this case I would say "Thanks Honey! Hey do you think you could figure out how to fix the broken _______ too?"
If you just suggested it and he didn't take your suggestion but got it done on schedule as he always does then I see no problem. Well not on his part anyway, I guess the problem is yours in that it's a common one we moms face when we suggest what WE think to be a better way and it gets ignored. Happens to me all the time.
God bless,
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Michele Quigley
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Willa
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MicheleQ wrote:
If you just suggested it and he didn't take your suggestion but got it done on schedule as he always does then I see no problem. Well not on his part anyway, I guess the problem is yours in that it's a common one we moms face when we suggest what WE think to be a better way and it gets ignored. Happens to me all the time. God bless, |
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This is an interesting thread and yes, that was what I was thinking when I started to write my answer to MacBeth's question, and then got busy doing something else.
I think while it may be important for younger children to do things WHEN and HOW mom tells them (because they are inexperienced, and to develop the habit of obedience and teachability), it is more important for teenagers to learn their own work habits and self-management tools, and this means trial and error on their part, flexibility on the part of the parents.
So in practice, I TRY to give my older kids some latitude in their assignments -- whether chores, schoolwork or whatever. Obviously this is something we work up to *starting* in the younger years, but develops more fully in the teenage years.
If I do want something done in a certain way or time or place, I try to make it very clear that my specifications are exact on that point. But I try not to overuse this because again, one of my biggest agendas for my kids is that they ultimately learn to manage themselves and develop virtues interiorly, not just be passively compliant or passively hostile to outside requirements.
But yes, I think it's really HARD for the mom sometimes to step back when we think the kids are doing it wrong, or offer kind advice and find it disregarded! That happens to me too, definitely!
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Willa
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juliecinci
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Good topic.
On a related note, do you ever find that you give advice to your kids that you wouldn't take yourself? For instance, I am often suggesting my kids schedule their work to get it done. But I hardly ever schedule mine. Or I might talk about doing something a little bit each day when typically I work in binge stretches when my concentration goes deep and lasts a long time (I don't work well in short increments).
I grew up thinking that I was not very organized, yet I managed to have a GPA that equaled an A so who was not managing?
That sense of not achieving using the "right" methods has often times played havoc with my self esteem and I find myself trying to get my kids to do things the "right" way to offset that sense in myself.
In realizing this tendency, I've backed way off. I have a couple kids who never need any prodding and one I remind all the time to no effect. So I'm learning to let them find their way the same way I had to find mine.
Jon always supports me by saying, "Julie, for all the anxiety you have about disorganization, you sure get a lot done. I think you're doing okay."
Julie
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Elizabeth
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juliecinci wrote:
Good topic.
On a related note, do you ever find that you give advice to your kids that you wouldn't take yourself? For instance, I am often suggesting my kids schedule their work to get it done. But I hardly ever schedule mine. Or I might talk about doing something a little bit each day when typically I work in binge stretches when my concentration goes deep and lasts a long time (I don't work well in short increments). |
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This is absolutely how I work, though my planner tells a a different story. I can organize it all mentally in a very scheduled way and then I execute much, much differently. I do everything in binge stretches. One of my greatest challenges is stopping--I tend to get involved and persevere to my own detriment sometimes. I see at least three of my children following the same pattern. And, even though I see it bearing fruit in my eldest, I do have to bite my tongue to keep from asking him to behave more conventionally.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MacBeth
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Trip is now installing cherry-wood blinds in the sun room (on eight windows). I just heard him muttering to himself when he was a bit distracted by the computer..."discipline...discipline..." I don't think I really have to worry, .
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MacBeth in NY
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Elizabeth
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I thought of you this morning, MacBeth. I spent about an hour calling to Christian (13) on and off from my post in front of the computer. I had decided today was the perfect day to wrap up any unfinished projects and he has some narrations I was going to help him edit. After becoming exasperated that he was ignoring me, I got up to look for him. He was in the garage assembling our neighbor's grill.  Apparently, our neighbor, who is from El Salvador, couldn't read the English directions so he offered to pay Christian to put the grill together. He did so very well. Counts as reading comprehension, don't ya think?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MacBeth
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Counts as reading comprehension, don't ya think? |
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In a big way. following directions is so important, and reading them from a booklet is one of those skills that we all need so badly.
Oh, you should see the blinds in this room! They look so good I'll have to have Trip paint the sunroom next...perhpas if I suggest he finish his algebra, I'll get a great paint job!
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MacBeth in NY
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Topic: I asked my teenage son to...
