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Dawnie
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I need some help with my 7yod. I am really having trouble understanding her and relating to her. Sorry for the length of this post...
She is my oldest daughter. She is also my most difficult child to deal with. I don't have nearly as much trouble disciplining my other children. I have been having to call my dh at work to help me deal with her since she was 3 years old. Most of the time, she's a very sweet child. She's very talkative. But when I have to discipline her (I usually use time-out) for breaking one of our family rules, she is often defiant and disrespectful, especially when dh is at work. She has outright refused to go to time-out, she has hidden under her bed (especially when I'm pregnant, as she knows I cannot go after her), she has called me names, spit at me, and hit, kicked, and scratched me. She also throws things. So, when she acts like that, I give her a worse punishment, like being grounded to her room for the rest of the night/day, or at times, I spank her, usually when I'm at the end of my rope and don't know what else to do to get her to behave and mind me. In my saner moments, I know spanking doesn't work well with her...it's like pouring gasoline on a fire. She also lies on a regular basis...telling me that she's done something I've asked her to do (like putting her clothes away) when she hasn't. She is a dawdler. She balks at doing chores and schoolwork. I'm really getting tired of this behavior. I've been telling myself that she'll grow out of it...but it doesn't seem like she is.
The only thing that seems to "work" when she gets in one of her moods is for me (or dh) to yell and scream and spank her multiple times, basically scaring her into submission.  This is not the kind of mom I want to be. Her behavior is VERY trying at times. I don't know what to do with her when she gets like this. In many ways, she is just like me...I have a bad temper, I tend to get sidetracked and procrastinate and I'm very emotional at times. But I NEVER showed outright defiance to my parents, called them names, or tried to strike them.
I've tried reasoning with her--seems to go in one ear and out the other. Spanking doesn't seem to work. Time-out doesn't seem to work. I've taken away privleges, but she doesn't have that many--we don't have a TV that we watch everyday...her only privleges are playtime, going outside, and dessert (which also isn't an everyday thing).
Do any of you have a child like this? She reminds me of some descriptions I've seen of Leonie Martin (one of St. Therese's sisters), but I'm nowhere near as saintly as Zelie Martin. I've just begun reading about the four temperaments, and she seems to be choleric. I just took a test and I'm melancholic-phlegmatic. When I think of her as a teenager, I want to cry. What do I do??
Dawn
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Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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SeaStar
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I have read two books that have helped me a lot- my 4 yo ds is very high maintenance and seems to have been born with an attitude.
The first book was "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Kurcinka. I love this book- it describes my ds perfectly. The author talks about different personality types and what causes different behaviors and how to handle them. I learned a lot and use may of her tips.
The next book I found very helpful was "1-2-3 Magic" by Dr. Thomas Phelan. It is a discipline approach based on the "1-2-3" method, and, I have to say- it has really worked magic in our house. My ds knows that when I start counting he has to shape up or he *will* be going to his room, which he really dislikes. After you get to "3", the child goes to time out (a room, a chair, out to the car if you are in a store). You do not talk at all while escorting the child to time out. There is no "Now you are going to your room- you should have listened to me- why are you so difficult"- just silence. It is a relief, honestly. There is no spanking, no talking during the heat of the moment (when you tend to say and do dumb things) and no snap decisions. The author explains the method in detail and provides countless scenarios and "what if" situation examples. I found the book tremendously helpful. I have modified my approach in that after the time out I do talk to my ds about what happened, and we "start over" in prayer.
A third option: Steve and Terri Maxwell have created "accountability charts" that they sell on line. They are called "If/Then Charts":
http://www.titus2.com (look under "all products" for the if/then chart)
These are posters that list typical bad behavior (such as being disrespectful), then list a Bible verse telling us how God wants us to behave instead, then there is a space for the "consequence" (which you have decided before hand). When a child acts out, you simply consult the chart and determine the punishment. Again- no angry words, no spanking- it's all spelled out. I just have to say, "Maybe we need to get the chart out and see what Jesus says about your behavior..." and that is usually enough to stop my ds's bad behavior. He really doesn't like being measured up on the chart. They also have a "Blessings Chart: available, which is nice.
My ds has a very intense personality- it is exhausting. I have to stay right on top of his behavior and feel like I am wearing the Blessed Mother and St Monica out with my cries for help. I feel for you. At the same time I would never tolerate him kicking me or spitting on me or throwing things. Maybe some of the approaches above will help (and even though 1-2-3 Magic relies on time out, don't cross it off your list. At least read through the book and see what the author suggests. You can tweak it to fit your needs).
I will keep you in my prayers. HUGS
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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Paula in MN
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Dawn -
Are you sure you are not describing my 7yo dd? We hae had all the same issues as you. I haven't read any of the books that Melinda discussed, but they sound good.
I sat down with dd and together we came up with a list of *bad behaviors*. Then we came up with the consequences for each of them. It has helped.
Another thing that I did, which may sound silly but it did help. Every morning (after our morning talk with Jesus and Bible reading) we say the Pledge of Allegiance. We added *I am responsible for my actions and the consequences of my actions* at the end of the Pledge.
I'll be praying for you.
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 Paula
A Catholic Harvest
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Angel
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I have to bring my oldest to a doctor's appointment right now, but I want to recommend an excellent book:
The Explosive Child, by Ross Greene.
My oldest has Tourette Syndrome, and often simply cannot control the same behaviors you've mentioned. It's taken us a long time to get past the yelling/spanking/punishing cycle, but it became apparent that we needed to do *something* differently when he became nearly as tall as me.
I'll write more later aswe have dealt with this issue extensively in our house, but thought you might like the book as soon as I thought of it!
--Angela
Three Plus Two
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1floridamom
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Dawn, I don't have anything useful to add, I just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone. I will pray for you, because the yelling mommy in me feels the same failure. My dd is 5 and seems lost in the middle at the moment, which I really think mostly explains her behavior. My oldest had tantrums that were inconsolable, but trying to calm down with him (and him getting older) have helped him curb his temper.
I look forward to reading others' advice.
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Monica in FL
dh Steve, Sean (14), Ethan (13), Emily (10), Kylie (6), Ashley (5) and Lindsay (2)!
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msclavel
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Wow, I know what your going through, as this accurately describes my six year old daughter. I just talked to my husband the other day and mentioned to him my concern that there might be some underlying behavorial/developmental issues beoynd just "disobedience." Just the other day, we had to go out, to something fun, I might add and she completely lost it because I asked her to brush her hair. I mean LOST IT! She nearly ruined the day for all her siblings.
And I know what you mean about the submission through fear. My husband doesn't seem to mind too much, though it is exhausting, but I can't stand the idea of her being obedient because she fears physical punishment.
And yet there is so much more to her than than this behavior, so many wonderful and delightful things about her...well, not sure I have anything to really help, other than mutual prayer.
By the way, I have been lurking here for months and just LOVE it! All you ladies are just amazing and wonderful and a source of strength.
Maria
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Leonie
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I don't know if I am much help but I wonder if you have got into a pattern in behaviour with this child?
If she responds to the spanking and yelling works, it may be that now she only waits to respond to this sort of final, ultimatum behaviour?
I had one son a bit like this - and he is much better now he is older. Some kids just take longer to grow out of these thigns.
Your consistency and prayers will pay off long term. A book I have mentioned several times  that has really helped me is "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk."
Saying a prayer for you and dd...
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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SeaStar
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[QUOTE=msclavel] Wow, I know what your going through, as this accurately describes my six year old daughter. I just talked to my husband the other day and mentioned to him my concern that there might be some underlying behavorial/developmental issues beoynd just "disobedience." Just the other day, we had to go out, to something fun, I might add and she completely lost it because I asked her to brush her hair. I mean LOST IT! She nearly ruined the day for all her siblings.
Mary Kurcinka's book deals specifically with "why?" behind behavior like this. It's not the brushing hair request that pushes the child over the edge- it's the transition. You were going out; some kids need a lot of time to warm up to this idea and adjust (some even need a up to a week's worth of activities outlined for them so they can be ready mentally).
Reading the book made me feel like someone had given me a translation script for my ds's personality. I discovered that he is slow to transition and also has many introvert qualities (just as I do). An introvert needs time alone to recharge every day, and without that time can become very grumpy and act badly. Large crowds/lots of noise/activity can drain an introvert of energy and exhaust him/her, which also leads to bad behavior. Taking an introvert kid and making them do errands with you- in and out of stores, talking to a lot of people, can literally wipe them out. With my ds, I discovered that one car trip outside the home per day is about his limit at this age. I can't put him in the car and make stops at the grocery store, the library, etc. He becomes unbearable- tired, upset, edgy, tearful. I used to get frustrated when he acted this way, but now I understand why, and adjusting our schedule helped tremendously.
OTOH, extroverts *need* tons of "people time" to keep them feeling good. They need to talk a lot and be with people. Being alone too much drains them and makes them unhappy. My dad is a classic extrovert. Now I finally understand why he has to talk to everyone, everywhere, all the time.
Anyway, the book is full of great insights. It's well worth a read if your library has it.
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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Donna
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Dawn,
Several years ago I attended a homeschool conference and sat in on a workshop titled "The Strong Willed Parent" given by Mark Hamby. I was struggling with my very strong willed daughter at the time. She was about 10 and, oh, was I dreading the teen years.
This workshop changed our lives. It changed the way my husband and I parent our daughter.
Now, at age 16, almost 17, my daughter is a joy and I credit that to the workshop I attended six years ago.
I recommend giving it a listen...it may help you as well.
The Strong Willed Parent
Blessings,
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Donna
DH, Keven
Jason, Stevie, Marie, Jackson, Clara, and Aaron
Jacob, Sam, and Regina with God
Grandbabies Leigha and Elsie
Moments Like These
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Dawnie
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| Posted: Dec 19 2006 at 11:08pm | IP Logged
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Leonie wrote:
| If she responds to the spanking and yelling works, it may be that now she only waits to respond to this sort of final, ultimatum behaviour? |
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That's entirely possible, Leonie. I think that the problems in her behavior are at least partially due to this. She thinks "Mom's not really serious until she loses her temper." 
SeaStar wrote:
| OTOH, extroverts *need* tons of "people time" to keep them feeling good. They need to talk a lot and be with people. Being alone too much drains them and makes them unhappy. My dad is a classic extrovert. Now I finally understand why he has to talk to everyone, everywhere, all the time. |
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I think that my dd is an extrovert....she talks *constantly*...and it wears me out mentally (I am an introvert). When we go to the park, she goes right up to any and every kid and starts talking to them and organizing their play. When we visit w/ other adults, she talks so much that I end up not getting to talk to my adult friends! 
I checked our library and all the titles mentioned (except for the workshop Donna mentioned) are there. 
Donna, I'm glad to hear about the workshop...I definately need somthing that will change our lives.
I'm totally frustrated and feeling like I'm *this* close to having a nervous breakdown. We had a bad day today. I sent Mary Beth to time out for running in the house...she started yelling at me, talking back, being generally disrespectful and refused to go to time-out...it went downhill from there.
Her behavior is worst with me...which makes me think that somehow I am part of the problem. I don't have problems with her acting up in public. She isn't *as* disrespectful towards her dad, but he is also much more severe with her than I am. I think she is just more scared of him than of me. 
She is usually fine (besides being FULL of energy) until she asked to do something she doesn't really want to do (like a chore) or told to go to time-out for doing something like running in the house or pestering her sisters. If she actually goes to time-out, many times she is yelling and being generally disrespectful. Other times, she actually refuses to go to time-out, runs away, and physically fights me if I try to physically escort her to time-out. So then, I feel like I should punish the disrespectfulness and defiance on top of the original offense (which was usually quite minor in comparison). So then it's, "You're grounded to your room for the rest of the night!" At times I have to actually hold her bedroom door closed. At times she throws things at her door. At that point, I don't really have any other consequences to give her, besides adding more time being grounded to her room. Which brings me to my big questions: when we punish our children (whether it's time-out, spanking, or loss of privleges), are we punishing to teach them that there are consequences for their behavior or are we using punishment to make them stop a bad behavior? Does that make sense? If I send Mary Beth to time-out for talking back, and she continues talking back while she's in time-out, do I just ignore it, or pile more punishments on until she stops it?
Thank you so much for all the suggestions and prayers so far...I really want things to be different in our house. I want to have a good relationship with Mary Beth. I really want to love this kid, but it is so hard.
Dawn
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Mom to Mary Beth (99), Anna (02), Lucia (04), Clara (06), and Adelaide Victoria (2/28/09)
Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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Patty
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Hi Dawn!
I can relate to part of what you're saying about your oldest, because our oldest daughter had some of those behaviors when she was younger. She's an introvert, but she still would get very emotional and act out over things. She "leveled out" as she got older, but then had a turbulent adolescence around 12/13. But guess what??? Now this daughter is 22 and a postulant in the Little Sisters of the Poor. :-) I *knew* if all that energy got channeled in the right direction, wonderful things would happen. So take heart!
But back to your problem, today... I don't have any magic answers, but I will tell you that spanking did NOT work for my oldest. I think the most important things to remember, whatever consequences you choose, are to be consistent (while praying to keep calm!) and letting your daughter know you are on her side. I think if you consistently let her know you love her unconditionally no matter what, then that will ground her, even though she goes through rough times. She will know, deep down, that her parents are on her side. Yeah, it still hurts to have her acting like she hates you. But I really don't think she does. She just gets very frustrated.
Do you ever get to do anything, just with her??? I know you have a new baby and two other little girls, but could you spend a little time alone with her (or maybe while you're nursing the baby) doing something together? Anything...you don't have to leave the house...fixing her hair, letting her fix yours, having a tea party, reading a favorite book, making a scrapbook or memory book, doing a craft... Let her know how special she is.
I'm really tired. Hope I've made some sense. I will be praying for you, and a big CONGRATS on the new baby girl!
Patty
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Leonie
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Dawnie wrote:
| Which brings me to my big questions: when we punish our children (whether it's time-out, spanking, or loss of privleges), are we punishing to teach them that there are consequences for their behavior or are we using punishment to make them stop a bad behavior? Does that make sense? If I send Mary Beth to time-out for talking back, and she continues talking back while she's in time-out, do I just ignore it, or pile more punishments on until she stops it? |
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Dear Dawn,
I am no expert so take what I say with a pinch of salt. Its just my experience to date.
I try not to think in terms of punishment but of consequences - so, for me, the consequence is just that - a consequence for wilful misbehaviour. I wouldn't pile on extra consequences...
It also all really starts with me. I find I have to work on not getting emotional about misbehaviour or about ignoring rules/principles - but deal with it calmly and in a non emotional manner. So, to do this, it is sometimes me that has to go to time out.
Now, I have been extra grumpy these last few days - too much on - and so am not a good exasmple right now.
But when I practise not getting emotional over behaviour, especially with the one son who has always been high need,well, our relationship is better.
I also need frequent reconciliation/confession and prayers/novenas myself when I am working on issues with a dc.
Has your dd made her FHC and first reconciliation yet -I only ask because this has made a difference for my ds, esp the one with extra needs . ; ;
Continuing prayers and thoughts.
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Angel
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Leonie wrote:
I try not to think in terms of punishment but of consequences - so, for me, the consequence is just that - a consequence for wilful misbehaviour. I wouldn't pile on extra consequences...
It also all really starts with me. I find I have to work on not getting emotional about misbehaviour or about ignoring rules/principles - but deal with it calmly and in a non emotional manner. So, to do this, it is sometimes me that has to go to time out.
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This has been our experience, too. When we started using time-out more as a cool-down period than a punishment, and when *I* started remaining calm -- and my husband started remaining calm -- then things got a lot better. Now most of our "punishments" are more like Leonie describes -- consequences, or more natural outcomes of the situation -- than punitive sentences. For instance, if he grumps about helping at lunch (which he often does), then he has to fix his own lunch. If he does something that hurts somebody else, he has a cool-down period, and then he has to think of something nice to do for the person he offended and do it.
I still lose my temper more than I would like to , but things *are* getting better.
Also, my son's behavior has always seemed to get worse when I've been pregnant. He's always very happy about accepting a new baby once the baby is actually here, but I think he just worries a lot when I'm pregnant. (Part of that may be because of a miscarriage I had when he was little. ) He can't express his anxiety, and so it comes out in these behaviors.
His behavior is also worse when he hasn't been eating right, when he hasn't gotten enough sleep (especially then), and when he's bored. It also tends to feed on itself; if I'm constantly on his case, then he's grumpier and more likely to lose it when I correct him yet *again*. If I try to make a habit of pointing out his successes and praising him for those, his behavior improves, too.
The other thing is that my ds is "chronically inflexible". That means that he locks in on ONE possibility and ONLY ONE. He has a very low tolerance for frustration, too. So if he's bent on doing his ONE thing and I ask him -- even nicely -- to do something else, his frustration may start to mount too quickly for him to think of any other options. Then before I know what's happened, he might be yelling, throwing things, etc., and it seems to just come out of the blue for something small. What we *try* to do is help him practice ways to think of different options and to deal with frustration, so he can think in those sorts of situations. This has been somewhat successful, but it needs an amazing amount of persistence and consistency on our part.
Hang in there. It is really tough to parent a child like this, but I do think it is having the side effect of making *me* a better (more patient anyway) person.
--Angela
Three Plus Two
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SeaStar
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Dawn-
The 1-2-3 Magic book addresses a lot of your issues- what to do when the child won't go to time out, how to react when they are throwing things at the door during time-out... lots of food for thought in that book.
I am praying that you will find a peaceful solution that works for your family.
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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amyable
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I've been reading this thread with interest, as I have a 9yo DD who is much like this! I have no real advice to offer, because I often think of posting here myself to ask for discipline help. Actually, many times I have been tempted to PAY one of you to help me play by play, lol - I want a mom of many to sit in my house for 3 days and critique me. 
Seriously though, the only thing I think I can add is it has done absolutely NO good to heap consequences on top of consequences (i.e. for having trouble while in time out, etc). We tried it for quite awhile and it actually makes things worse.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Sarah
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Tempers and disrespect have been flaring here, too. I'm not sure why. We're "off" right now.
I was thinking today that winter days can make us focus on each other too much. We are right in each other's faces 24/7 with not enough creative things planned and terrible weather plus colds/fever.
Not that I'm making excuses, but we all get along better when we can get outside or away on a field trip.
There is no tolerance for disrespect, but when it flares and becomes a habit it is sure hard to curb in a choleric type child.
Also, my kids are feeling me getting back to our routine and they see Mom as a pain who is trying to enforce jobs when they hadn't done anything for a long time. Boot camp here .
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Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
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humanaevitae
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My newly-turned 7 yr old dd is also like this. She has very strong reactions to many things. I have found it helpful to talk with her about her emotions and that while they are not bad they do need a healthy outlet. Anger is ok but not screaming nasty words at people when you are upset.
When she is not in control of her emotions but they are in control of her, my dd is asked to go to her room. I do not emphasize the punishment but that she needs to be in control of her emotions and maybe some time alone will help her gain that control. She is able to come down whenever she feels she can communicate her feelings effectively and apologize for her outburst.
Sometimes I will let her choose her room or some sort of excerise like running around the house 6 times. She is very physical and sometimes needs to release those strong emotions before she can calmly think.
Sometimes I am able to diffuse the situation by giving her a hug and asking her if she wants to talk about it calmly. My dd has a lot of pride and finds it hard to back down once she has stated her position.
I kept waiting for my oldest to say that dreaded "I hate you" phrase, however he would only yell that I hated him. It was this daughter at 2 who was the first to tell me that she hated me. Her emotions run deep and very intense (so do mine ) so I see it as one of my missions in life to teach her acceptable ways to deal with her personality. Passion can be a joy but can also be quite a cross to live under.
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Nicole-Zane 10, Elizabeth 7, Xavier 4, and John Patrick 2
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Lillian
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I found this thread to be very interesting and something I could have written a few years ago. I have all the books mentioned above!!
However, a few years ago I found a gem. It is Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child by Robert J. MacKenzie. He goes over both temperaments parents and children might have. Especially, regarding parents, he discusses how some parents are either too lax or too strict and how a balance needs to be found. He later discusses how screaming and repeated warnings actually teach our children to just wait until the "real" or "final ultimatum" is given before listening.
And then teaches how to parent by expecting to be obeyed the first time or else a consequence. He has a schedule in the back of the book with which techniques to implement at various weeks. I really recommend this books because it sounds like your child has figured out when you're serious and waits until then. And you don't want to have to get that angry EVERY time to get results.
Also, he admits that some kids are just easier to parent because they are more compliant. But the other ones are actually testing us to see when we will give in and not be consistent.
Again, this book was a life saver. I don't scream nearly as much and my kids know when I mean business. At least the older ones do!! I'm having to re-read this book for my younger dd. 
Hope you find this helpful. I'll be praying for you both!
Blessings,
Lillian in TX
wife to Craig ('96) and mommy to Isabelle 8 yo, Anna 6 yo, Sophia 5 yo, Kolbe 3 yo, Catherine 1 yo
www.smithflections.blogspot.com
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mommylori
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I use raisinggodlytomatoes.com I really love the advice I have gotten from E on there. One thing she told me the other day, really rang true, you have to outlast your children. For instance if you tell her to sit down and be quiet, and she doesn't you don't punish her and get up and then move on. But you punish then make her sit for a longer period of time, and outlast, taking as long as it needs, till she understands when you tell her to do this or that, it means do this or that. And also it shows her how you expect it to be done properly so next time she knows ok this is how I am supposed to do it. If that makes since?
Another big one is the Tomato Staking, when your child is misbehaving, you keep her by yourside for an extended period of time, till you can trust her again on her own.lol Show her the ropes. This doesn't have to be awful, but keep her in arms length and have her help you out with what you are doing or sit next to you quietly so you can show her by example what you need her to do during the day. And also it trains you as a parent to keep an eye and stop the behavors before they even start because you are seeing first hand what is leading to the behavors.
But the website has tons of info on it so take a look.
Lori
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Dawnie
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Joined: Aug 30 2005
Location: Kansas
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Posts: 841
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| Posted: Dec 27 2006 at 11:48pm | IP Logged
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Thank you so much for the responses, everyone. I don't have a lot of time to write, but I have been reading re-reading this thread and your support, advice, and prayers are a big help.
I checked out "1-2-3 Magic" from the library and have started using it. I discussed with my dh and he is going to read the book, too! This is a big deal, as I feel we've never been in agreement about discipline issues. I've already started "counting" the kids and they are responding, even Mary Beth.
I also checked out "The Explosive Child" and "Raising Your Spirited Child" and am working my way through those books. You all have pointed me towards so many great resources...I'm going to be busy reading and listening for awhile! You've also given me a lot of hope. Thank you!
Dawn
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Mom to Mary Beth (99), Anna (02), Lucia (04), Clara (06), and Adelaide Victoria (2/28/09)
Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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Topic: Help me understand this child
