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doris
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| Posted: Dec 13 2006 at 4:41pm | IP Logged
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This occurred to me on the feast of the Immaculate Conception.
Sorry if it sounds silly or heretical, but I'm genuinely curious.
Given that Mary was conceived without sin, why is she painted as a model of discipleship? Why is her 'fiat' a big deal ie did she really have free will to say no? I suppose what I'm getting at is, how much can we look to her as a model given that we are all tainted with original sin (and much else besides) and she wasn't?
If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be really grateful.
Elizabeth
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Frabjous Days
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Jen L.
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| Posted: Dec 13 2006 at 4:53pm | IP Logged
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I know that you are going to get some great answers here. I am looking for an article that really made this clear for me.
One point that always helps me understand this is:
Eve didn't have original sin and she still used her free will to choose sin. Mary, even without original sin could have chosen "no".
Hope this helps while you wait for the expert replies 
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Helen
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Dear Elizabeth,
I think your question is really many, many questions. What does the Immaculate mean?
(Something repeated often by St. Maximilian Kolbe –
Immaculate - Who are you?)
And your question really is the question of the Catholic Faith.
One way to look at your question is to ask:
Did God intend to become incarnate from the beginning of time? This is the age old debate between the Franciscans(Duns Scotus – St. Bonaventure) and the Dominicans (St. Thomas). Was the Incarnation dependent upon the Fall of Man? I’m not trying to get into this big discussion now, but one way to shed light on your question is to embrace the idea that from the very beginning of time, the Second person of the Blessed Trinity willed to become man then from the very beginning of time, Our Lady was in the mind of God.
Our Lady was an essential part of the plan.
Where does her discipleship come in?
She is an example for all in all things. She is the Mother of God, the spouse of the Holy Spirit the daughter of the Eternal Father. She is the Virgin yet she is also a mother. She is the mother of the perfect Son and the Mother of every wayward soul on earth. She is the mother through her Virgin Birth of the Son, in piercing cold that first Christmas. She is the mother who stood at the foot of the Cross and the Mother of the Risen savior. She has experienced the full range of the life of the Divine Son and every pain and joy that the ordinary person might.
In addition, She so understands the mystery of the Trinity not only through the intimacy of the overshadowing in the Annunciation but also through the life of the Lord, to the foot of the Cross and beyond. She received the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the first Pentecost – Look what happened to the fearful disciples – Imagine what she experienced! And then the years in front of the Blessed Sacrament as the Church grew. How often did she herself receive Holy Communion? Was there ever a time she experienced a blemish with her relationship with God.
No. Never.
Every second of her life she was advancing in grace. Yet she is not divine. No one would ever say she is divine. (Although St. Denis wrote that when he saw her, if he wasn’t completely convinced of the truth of the three persons in one God, he would have thought she was a divinity.)
Now, really, I don’t mean to begin controversy, but free will is not the same as license. WE are not truly free to choose what is wrong. WE might have the power but that is not the same as exercising free will. Our Lady’s Will was so perfectly conformed to the Divine Will that She would only select His Will. Does this mean she wasn’t free – no, she was free.
The Immaculate Conception is key. It is the first grace among many.
I think one of the things that devotion to Our Lady teaches is the profound humility of God. He could do things very differently – I guess. But, his paths are exceedingly lowly. A little time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and one has to wonder – Why does He do this? Why doesn’t He stand here in glorious splendor? Why is He veiled behind this screen of the most ordinary material on earth? It is the same with the way He has delegated power to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Why does he make her the Mediatrix of all graces? Why is that His power is parceled out through her? Because He is humble. I wish there was another word – more humble than the humblest King.
So why should we turn to the Blessed Virgin as an example if she was without sin? Because God Wills it, but beyond that she is a human person, the perfect human person. Jesus is true God and true Man. Yes, it is the shedding of Divine Blood which opens heaven to us. But the Divine person is infinitely removed from our understanding unless He teaches us about Himself. (Man can know the existence of God through reason, but the truth of the Trinity and therefore the Person of Christ is only through revelation.) In letting Our Lady lead us, we begin in humility learning about the humility of God.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Am I answering the original question?
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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mommylori
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| Posted: Dec 13 2006 at 7:09pm | IP Logged
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She was born without sin but still had free will.
Plus she never lost her faith or hope. She watched her son being beat, torched and killed but never lost faith in God or her hope. I don't think I could be that stong, if I saw them beat torcher and kill my child, I would be pretty upset and my faith would really be tested.
Nothing really fancy to exsplain, I just see the whole thing thru another mothers eyes. And she gave birth to Jesus, could you imagine, having this perfect child, who God sent to you, a perfect painless childbirth. Doing Gods will and then beat and killed for it, and dealing with a whole mob hating your only child, your perfect child, Gods own son? And never once breaking down or losing faith but being a handmaiden to the Lord?
Lori
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alicegunther
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| Posted: Dec 13 2006 at 11:23pm | IP Logged
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Helen wrote:
Am I answering the original question?
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You certainly are, Helen, and beautifully, as always.
Elizabeth, great question!
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kjohnson
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Helen, this is absolutely beautiful. What a gift you are to Our Lady!
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Katherine
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Paula in MN
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Helen, that is truly wonderful. Thanks!
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 Paula
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hylabrook1
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Helen -
Thank you for such a beautiful answer. I'm going to print it up -- it is instructive, as well as being a wonderful meditation.
Peace,
Nancy
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Martha
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HA! Thia was discussed at park day yesterday!
Yes, she had free will!
She is the new Eve. Both born without sin and with free will. Her acceptance of God's will is what allowed reparation for Eve's deed against mankind to be possible.
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Martha
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: My latest thick question
