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KellyJ
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| Posted: Nov 30 2006 at 9:52pm | IP Logged
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Hi everyone, I pray you all are well. Though I don't get a chance to visit regularly, I keep you in my prayers.
I wanted to know if anyone has data on organics/non-antibiotic/hormone-free foods and beverages demonstrating the superiority of such and if there are any studies countering that argument.
I am going through a phase of questioning the money our family is investing in foods and beverages that are organic or otherwise considered healthier. My questioning isn't about the money itself, but about the facts, the reality.
The source of my questioning is from reading various books over the past year that tout this or that formula for healthy eating, self-healing, etc. I have tended to believe what I read in these books, but when I read in one book that pigs only sweat through their hooves, and so we shouldn't ever eat pork, I wondered about that: it was news to me. Months later, I got around to looking into the accuracy of the pig sweating assertion and learned that they do not sweat through their hooves. Were there other inaccuracies in that book? I do not know.
The long and short of it is that I'm not an expert in this realm, and I rely on others to help me form right decisions. I wonder whether I am buying too much into concept of organics, etc.. Is there data to back it up? Have there been studies proving its superiority regarding overall, long-term human health? Is there anything supporting an opposing or not entirely supporting view?
I know Advent is almost upon us, and I hope this post isn't too much of an incovenience. Thank you in advance for your thoughtful replies.
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KellyJ
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Becky Parker
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Thank you for posting this Kelly as I have been wondering the same. I find so much contradiction it is hard to know what is truth. Even among "organic" foods there are some that are not really organic. The expense is almost more than we can handle at this point as well, although I don't mind the sacrifice if it is truly worth it. I hope you get some answers to your questions as I am also curious.
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stefoodie
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I've only got a few minutes to post this morning, but briefly, we don't buy something just because it's labelled "organic". Many farmers/small business cannot afford the organic certification. What we've done is try to buy as much as possible from local farmers (produce, meat), and if I do have to buy a labelled item I try to research first if the manufacturer is a trustworthy one and adheres to sustainable practices, etc. (e.g., don't buy Horizon milk).
More on the threads here and here.
As to the who-to-trust question, that's a hard one. I guess from talking to farmers, and my grandfather was one, knowing how things were done "back then", knowing about antibiotic resistance, etc. for me it's a comfort level thing. What I've read and heard from people makes sense to me, so I try to stay from anything GMO, etc. The thing also is balance; can't get too crazy about it, so sometimes we'll still eat beef that's not free range or antibiotic-free, etc. also, even the "organic" stuff has been contaminated to some degree -- if you've got 2 farmers with different practices next to each other, you can bet some of that stuff the farmer puts in his soil will somehow end up affecting the other farmer's soil as well. Plus, farmers have been "breeding" produce for years, so you can't be 100% anti-GMO because you've probably been eating it already for years, it just wasn't labelled that way. I'm not comfortable with crops that have been injected with antibiotics, etc. but I'll take peppers that have been "hybridized" by farmers for better yields or resistance to pests. Even my grandfather did that.
The other tip is that I try to always buy things on sale -- order through the co-op (even the co-op has sales) and even places like Wild Oats and Whole Foods regularly have sales. That brings down the expense some.
more info at localharvest.org and unitedbuyingclubs.com
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stef
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mary theresa
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KellyJ, I know what you mean about needing to know the facts, the "why" of buying organic and not just doing what other people say.
I have to say that I've never done much research into it myself, I'm organic-minded by assimilation just from growing up on a small family farm with an entire extended family of extremely alternative and organic minded people. So, I don't have much sources to offer you other than these two that i can think of off the top of my head:
-- www.organicconsumers.org (Sorry I don't know how to make my post link to the website.)
-- The Maker's Diet by Jordan Reuben, a Messianic Jew who found a way to cure himself of Krohn's Disease by changing what he ate. This book is very interesting and specifically addresses the pork eating that you mentioned. (It is really bad to eat pork by the way, but not because of sweating, I can explain more later if people are interested, but I don't have much time and didn't want to make this post TOO long!) 
As far as eating organic for our family, I firmly believe that "You are what you eat." That what you put into your body is SO important because we are such a soul/body composite and and what you eat affects our personalities, our moods, our health in such deep-seated ways that we may not know for years what eating synthetic growth hormones, or artifical flavors, or irradiated foods or GMOs or putting liquid petroleum on our skin will do to us.
Like, for example, chickens and cows are so filled with synthetic growth hormones to make bigger and better everything and also synthetic estrogen that many many women have too much estrogen that their progesterone can't keep up -- hence bad PMS, miscarriages, exhaustion, earlier returning cycles after birth etc. Young girls are developing earlier. Young boys and men are getting estrogen from what they eat -- hence maybe a bit of an explanation for effeminateness or homosexuality. Estrogen is so high in non-organic milk, beef, eggs and chicken, in the plastic encasing the food . . .
Also, chickens and cows are fed animal by-products, some of them are actually cannibals, eating parts of their own kind.
Another example is the spraying of crops. Things like berries, apples, peaches, tomatoes, green beans, corn and others we esp. try to get organic, since they are the most heavily sprayed. Alot of the sprays contain heavy metal residue, like mercury, that seep into the plant and the soil and the air. It's sheer poison.
When i was in college, my family was exposed to the mercury in the crop sprays used by the neighboring farm and that year was one of strange health problems and compromises for us. One of the hardest effects, that it took us alot of research and time to connect to the mercury, was the beginnings of depression in several members of my family, including me. There was more anger, more moodiness, more sadness in many of us, that we couldn't get out of and struggled with for a year or two before we traced it to this crop spray and found out how to do a heavy metal detox. Mercury can effect the brain in such a way to cause depression and having experienced the beginnings of that I know how every aspect of life suffers, spiritually and physically. And I'm sure that mercury is not the only toxic substance that is coating those shiny apples that we eat.
Like stef was saying though, you can't eat NOTHING bad. It's hard to find the real true good food under the broadening label "ORGANIC." Check out organicconsumers.org though -- I think they have something about which brands are more authentically and purely organic and natural. I do my best within what we can afford, pick my priorities and go with that. I do think it makes a difference though.
A doctor told me once -- the things that are the worst for your body don't effect it for years -- it's like they are SO bad the body can't get rid of it through you getting sick. She said that things like headaches or muscle soreness especially are the body fighting and trying to get rid of the lesser bad stuff you put in it. The really bad things it can't cope with so it lays down and gives up the fight and the badness stays there and becomes part of you till later when something breaks. Maybe that's a scary image -- sorry! -- but there's some scary stuff in the food that people are eating every day.
Hope this is informative or helps somewhat.  This is one of my pet subjects. Sorry if this post is too long! I could SO make it longer!
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Donna Marie
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Mary Theresa,
How did you Mercury detox? How long did it take. I am facing a similar issue with at least one of my dc right now.
Thanks!
Donna Marie from NJ
hs momma to 7dc
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Donna Marie from NJ
hs momma to 9dc!!
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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Mary Theresa - I would also like information about Mercury detox - and when you have time I would love to hear about the pork issue. We have never been big pork eaters and I had heard it wasn't great, but we did just buy some pork from friends. The pork is very tastey - I am wondering if the issue is in how they are raised or pork in general.
Thanks for your contribution to this subject - I would love to grow and buy all organic but find it cost prohibitive and as others have mentioned it seems like everyday the definition of "organic" is changing, or at least becoming a gray area.
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God Bless,
Wendi
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stefoodie
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yes, me too, about the pork issue. i've read some about it but need to learn more. thanks!
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stef
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mary theresa
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| Posted: Dec 02 2006 at 10:11am | IP Logged
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I'm not too knowledgable about mercury detox -- my mother did most of the research about this. My family and my husband's family have done it with very noticiable good results though. My husband -- at the time, my boyfriend -- had moderately bad depression and it has not shown its face at all since the detox. I'll tell you what I know.
First, it takes around a month. Varying acc. to the person.
Second, don't undertake a detox lightly. And don't take my word for everything !-- i could be wrong about all this because, as I said I really haven't done the research and am not a doctor! I would def. find a doctor who knows about this stuff. You have to do it just right and take all the right stuff or it can make things worse. Mercury is dangerous to have in yr body and its dangerous to try to flush out. It's really hard on your body and all symptoms get worse till you're done. You have to take ALOT of vitamin and mineral supplements -- I'm talking like up to 30 pills a day, or more, depending on the person. Esp. minerals because your body gets really depleted during the detox process. Most important are Calcium and Magnesium, then a Trace Mineral Supplement and Selenium (sp?) are others I know. I think there is more but those are the main ones.
So, you have to see taking the vit.and min. as support and strength for your body to get the mercury out. Otherwise, -- say you have the mercury in the brain (depression, memory troubles, etc.), it can move and try to redeposit itself somewhere else in the body. You have to support your liver esp. and other organs cuz they get put under great strain.
Then you have to take something to actually do the detoxing.
So places to find this are
www.extremehealthusa.com
Their product is called Oral Chelators. This company I think will actually do a heavy metal test for you if you send in a strand of the hair of the person you wish to test for toxicity.
www.bioray2000.com
Their product is called NDF. I think this one is supposed to be better than the Oral Chelators. This website has lots of good info.
The only other thing I know is that there is some kind of homeopathic remedy that helps with detox called Derivatio (sp?) -- sorry I don't know where to find it though.
Oh, and also, if you've ever had mercury fillings in your teeth, you probably have heavy metal buildup in your system. Sometimes just getting those taken out makes alot of difference.
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mary theresa
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| Posted: Dec 02 2006 at 10:32am | IP Logged
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About the pork:
It does somewhat depend on how the pigs were raised. Vegetarian pigs that eat only hay, foliage or nuts or whatever plant matter are WAY better. Commercial pork is fed on absolute garbage of all kinds and pigs will eat whatever you put in front of them. Because of this they have parasites in their system that can get passed on to us through the meat -- some of the parasites in pigs are really dangerous for humans.
In the book The Maker's Diet, which I really recommend, Jordan Rubin talks about how God forbad the Israelites to eat pork for a reason. They were "unclean" because they were created as scavengers. As a rule, left to themselves, they are meat-eating and clean up anything dead left around in the wild -- they are a garbage disposal basically. They will eat their own young, or cannibalize on other dead pigs. "Clean" animals that chew their cud (pigs don't) have three stomachs available to process their vegetation-based food into their meat. The process takes 24 hours and everything gets cleaned going through their digestive system. What pigs eat goes straight to their meat within 4 hrs, so basically, what the pig is eating, we are eating.
So, the pig's digestive system is full of enzymes that are meant to decay and decompose. Animals like cows have cleanzing, refining enzymes. So, though it DOES definitely make some difference if the pork we eat comes from strictly vegetarian pigs that are supervised and kept from eating yucky stuff, the pigs actual make-up, or built-in design includes these decaying enzymes which they have in their system in case they need them 
So, having sufficiently grossed-out everybody . . . Hope that is helpful to you all!
God bless!
Mary Theresa
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Paula in MN
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We are blessed with a provider who can hunt and fish with the best of them, so our freezers are well stocked with venison, duck, turkey and fish. I am a former city girl but he is country through and through, so for the last few years we have had some very productive gardens, eating what we want on a daily basis and canning or freezing the rest. I am fairly confident that we aren't eating too many toxins. I also like having a negligible grocery bill!!
Now if I can just talk him into some chickens and goats....
Paula
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lapazfarm
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Normally I would not contradict something that another member has posted,and I sincerely hope Mary Theresa does not take offense, but I just wanted to note that the science behind the anti-pork arguement is faulty. Take it as you will.
First of all, the reason cows have 4 stomachs is that it is a more difficult process to digest the high-fiber diets they eat. Their rumen is a fermentation chamber which is required to break down the cellulose in grass and hay.
Second, pigs are omnivores. They will eat whatever is put in front of them. Whether it is meat or vegetable does not alter the composition of their muscle (meat) which is what we eat. Pig muscle is pig muscle, the proteins and fats in it are the same regardless of their diet. Their digestive enzymes stay in the digestive tract and do not contaminate the meat.
As far as parasites are concerned, yes. We all need to cook pork well. Although trichinosis (sp?) is less prevalent than it used to be, it still happens.Cook your pork well.
That being said, the benefit of eating organically raised animals is quite clear. But it is the hormones and chemicals we must really be concerned about. These ARE deposited in muscle tissue and particularly in fatty tissues. And this is an issue for all animals including but not limited to pigs, cattle, chickens, and fish, which often have an alarming concentration of mercury in their meats, and animal products such as (in particular) milk.
Organically grown produce has the same advantage of being chemical free, and there is some data to show that it tends to also be higher in nutrient value.
Hope this helps present a little different point of view, but without feelings being injured, as it was not meant to do so.
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mary theresa
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No offensive taken, of course! I'm really not an expert. i didn't know all of that about cow's stomaches. And point taken on the digestive enzymes!
I'm afraid I do disagree with what you seem to be implying, that what an animal is fed does not matter as much, just the chemicals and such. I do think that what an animal is eating is a big concern in the organic "world" if you will. Proper diet for animals -- grass for cows, not only corn, vegetarian diet for pigs-- is something that is of concern to people, since commercially grown meat is fed what makes them fat, not what is healthy and appropriate for them to eat.
When I was growing up, (and still today) my parents raised and sold beef and lamb. Their meat was in high demand not only because of lack of chemicals and stereoids etc, but because of their diet. As an example: grass and hay is the natural diet for cows and sheep, as opposed to the largely corn diet of commercially raised cows, which are "finished" or fattened in a feed lot where poultry feces, and dead animal remains from other cows or sheep, is mixed with their corn as a cheap source of protein to get them fat quick. Diet makes a WORLD of difference in the absence or presence of unhealthiness or healthiness of the muscle of the animal we are eating. I have read and heard this from many, many places.
So, paraphrasing what I've read, the argument is basically : Pigs eat the worst of all the commercially raised meat on top of supposedly not being meant for people to eat because of their purpose in the food chain. Just like we wouldn't eat vultures.
I guess since I have heard and read this from so many sources, it convinces me, but I could be wrong of course, so, good to hear an argument that refutes the "no pork" theory or whatever you want to call it. Not that I never eat it, -- it's hard for us to live without bacon -- I just try not to too often. I'd love to have a clear conscience about eating pork though.  And husband would love me more if I made it for him once in a while.
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lapazfarm
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Hmm. I really didn't mean that what they eat doesn't matter at all. I agree that an animal fed a diet that simply adds fat rather than healthy muscle is not going to make the best meat, as it would be fatty meat (marbling). This is of course not healthy for us to eat. One interesting thing I learned in my meat science class was that the more expensive grades of meat (prime) are actually less healthy because of the greater amounts of marbling, which is fat threaded throughout the muscle tissue. It makes the meat tastier and more tender, brings a higher price, but is less healthy to eat.
But, I didn't realize we were talking about fat content as a health issue. The main benefit of organic vs non organic as I see it is the chemical and hormone issues. Remember that organic meats can be grain-fed and full of fat as well, though often they are not if they have the additional benefit of being pasture-fed or free-range.
So, we really are mostly in agreement. I just disagree about pork being "innately" bad to eat.
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Theresa
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mary theresa
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| Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 9:56am | IP Logged
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Theresa, you probably know lots more than me from taking a class! I hope you are right! Pork is so delicious -- I really do love it!
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KellyJ
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| Posted: Dec 03 2006 at 2:49pm | IP Logged
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Oops! I should have clarified in my original post about the pork issue. I wasn't looking for a reason to eat pork (that's rareity here anyhow). It was simply that the perspiration information didn't sit right with me, and it eventually got me to checking it out, and now to this point of wondering what's true/what's not true about organics, hormone-/antibiotic-free, free-range, vegetarian-fed, preservative-free, etc., etc., etc.
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KellyJ
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Organics and such
