| Author | |
Patty LeVasseur
Forum Pro
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 238
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 9:02am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
I am reading the bookHaving a Mary Heart in a Martha World by Joanna Weaver right now. The book is basically about how important it is to take time out of your day to spend quiet time with God. So far the book has been okay, but I got to this part and it is bothering me:
"Martha's excuse was duty. She had cleaning and cooking to do. She didn't think she had time to sit at Jesus' feet. Perhaps your excuse is children or work. Or maybe like me, the only excuse you really have for devotional delinquency is sheer laziness. But whatever it is--whatever keeps us from spending regular time with God--it is a sin.
Does it sound harsh to say that cooking or cleaning or taking care of chidren or doing your job might be sinful? But think about it. The very definition of sin is separation from God. So no matter how important the acticity, no matter how good it seems, if I use it as an excuse to hold God at arm's length, it is sin. I need to confess and repent of it so that I can draw close to the Lord once more."
I agree with her that anything that separates us from God is a sin, but I am really bothered by the idea that children can be a sin and I feel like she is limiting how we can spend time with God to "stop what you are doing and focus only on God or his Word-the Bible." I guess the reason this bothered me is that I don't think that Martha's problem was that she was using duty as an excuse, but rather that she had a bad attitude and was no longer serving joyfully. God has really been revealing to me (largely through all of you--thank you very much) that my problem (one of many, actually) is my attitude and that I haven't been looking at my children as though they are Jesus. Nor have I been looking at keeping a home for my family with the right heart. I have been trying to take my homemaking tasks and slow them down and do them with a better heart rather than just check them off the list.
So, I really want to know what you think of what she said. Am I misunderstanding her?
__________________
Patty
mom to four blessings
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 9:21am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Well I would disagree.
I'm a big, HUGE fan of St. Francis de Sales who says much about this.
I wrote about it awhile back on my blog, if you would care to read it.
I also like this quote:
Duty before everything else, even something holy.”
- St. Padre Pio
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
kjohnson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 9:32am | IP Logged
|
|
|
What comes to my mind is the Little Way of St. Therese of Lisieux. One of her jobs in the convent was doing laundry, but she offered it up to God and transformed menial labor into something beneficial for her soul.
More importantly, if children are a sin, then we've got a doctrinal issue with the motherhood of our sinless Blessed Mother.
This goes against the grain of the 2nd Vatican Council and the universal call to holiness that St. Josemaria Escriva captured so wonderfully in his teachings. And that is one of the most beautiful aspects of our Catholic Faith; that we find our paths to holiness in our ordinary lives.
I agree with Martha. St. Francis de Sales is an excellent resource for understanding this. I remember reading in Introduction to the Devout Life that those in the married state and caring for a family who long to be in a monastic setting are being tempted by the devil away from their God-given path to holiness.
Marriage is a sacrament and procreation is the fruit of marriage. This is taught to be a vocation in the Catholic Church, a divine path to salvation. I would say that the real sin would lie in the act of ignoring our duties (especially our children) to find more quiet time alone with God. What we do unto the little ones, we do unto Jesus.
__________________
In Christ,
Katherine
Wife to Doug and Mother of 6
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
kjohnson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 9:35am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh, and sin as separation from God... That is true, but we need not assume that our vocations as wifes and mothers separate us from God. The married state, being a sacrament, is a path to God. Ignoring the duties and responsibilities of the married state, in the extreme, is breaking a sacramental oath. That would separate us from God. The author of this book (who I know nothing about) seems to have a very self-centered view of the spiritual life. Thank God, Bl. Teresa of Calcutta didn't think in this way. There are many saints whose paths were active. The contemplative path is not the only path to holiness.
__________________
In Christ,
Katherine
Wife to Doug and Mother of 6
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
stacykay
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 08 2006
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1858
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 9:44am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Martha wrote:
Well I would disagree.
I'm a big, HUGE fan of St. Francis de Sales who says much about this.
I wrote about it awhile back on my blog, if you would care to read it.
I also like this quote:
Duty before everything else, even something holy.”
- St. Padre Pio |
|
|
I read something similar that was by St. Augustine. I have searched endlessly for the quote again, to get it exact (alas, I cannot find it!,) but it was along the lines of 'leaving your prayers at the altar and caring for those at home.' I remind myself of this whenever I have had to miss Mass for a very sick little one (very sick ones always seem to want Mummy  , whereas sick ones will sit with Dad.)
I agree with these wonderful saints! I have read other articles making comparisons between "home with children" and being in a cloistered order. We are serving God, just in a different way.
Overall, would you recommend this book? I am always looking for good books!
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ladybugs
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3732
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 10:27am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I agree with what the other ladies wrote above...
And would also pose the idea that in taking your time away from the children to be "with God" might give them the idea that they are not important and they might grow to resent God as a result depending on their age and understanding.
Obviously, that's not a desired fruit of motherhood.
Stacy, you might enjoy Holiness for Housewives if you haven't already read it.
Those are just some thoughts.
__________________
Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 10:42am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Patty LeVasseur wrote:
| So no matter how important the acticity, no matter how good it seems, if I use it as an excuse to hold God at arm's length, it is sin. I need to confess and repent of it so that I can draw close to the Lord once more." |
|
|
If you read this part as the key sentence, then the emphasis is not on children themselves or their necessary care, but on *using those things as an excuse*.
I have a friend who I talk to about this quite often. She would say that you can find God in the pots and pans and in the care of your children.
Maybe the Domestic Monastery which someone posted on CCM many years ago would be helpful.
Quote from the article:
Quote:
Carlo Carretto, one of the leading spiritual writers of the past half-century, lived for more than a dozen years as a hermit in the Sahara desert. Alone, with only the Blessed Sacrament for company milking a goat for his food, and translating the bible into the local Bedouin language, he prayed for long hours by himself. Returning to Italy one day to visit his mother, he came to a startling realization: His mother, who for more than thirty years of her life had been so busy raising a family that she scarcely ever had a private minute for herself, was more contemplative than he was.
Carretto, though, was careful to draw the right lesson from this. What this taught was not that there was anything wrong with what he had been doing in living as a hermit. The lesson was rather that there was something wonderfully right about what his mother had been doing all these years as she lived the interrupted life amidst the noise and incessant demands of small children. |
|
|
However, being busy with children and house isn't the same as using them as an excuse. I know sometimes I can use my domestic duties as an escape from intimacy -- I can do all my duties and be hurried with my children, preoccupied with my husband and distracted from the contemplation of God as my highest good. So maybe that is more what the author was trying to say. Not that children or child-care are sinful, but that they shouldn't become an obstacle to progressing towards God.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Patty LeVasseur
Forum Pro
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 238
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 11:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
WJFR wrote:
However, being busy with children and house isn't the same as using them as an excuse. I know sometimes I can use my domestic duties as an escape from intimacy -- I can do all my duties and be hurried with my children, preoccupied with my husband and distracted from the contemplation of God as my highest good. So maybe that is more what the author was trying to say. Not that children or child-care are sinful, but that they shouldn't become an obstacle to progressing towards God. |
|
|
Willa,
I agree with what you say here whole-heartedly. But then it is more about your attitude and not about how you are spending your time serving God right?
In this chapter she is using the picture of a woman twirling a bunch of hoola-hoops around her waist while remaining very calm. She said that the reason she was able to do this is because she was centered. In order for us to do all the things that we need to do during the day we need to be centered too, on God. All that makes sense to me. But then she says that you have to center yourself on God by having a conversation with God and in order to do that you have to be quiet so you can listen. It isn't a relationship if you are the only one doing all the talking. It just seems to me that sometimes God talks to us through our children and other people and it is our attitude that allows us to hear him rather than our silence.
This book has been okay so far. I just know that when I was Baptist the idea of having your quiet time with God was really stressed and I know a lot of people who have made some choices like not homeschooling their children or not helping a mother who had just had a baby or not helping an elderly person because it conflicted with their quiet time with God. I was just wondering how Catholics would view all of this.
I have been trying to find more quiet time to spend with God, but yesterday I really felt that God was telling me to see one of my children that I have been not that understanding of a mother with as Jesus and to spend time with him. And then I read this and am trying to figure out what God really wants me to do.
I have Holiness for Housewives and a love it. I second that recommendation. There is an awesome quote from C.K. Chesterton about the importance of mothers in that book that I pull out to read fairly often.
__________________
Patty
mom to four blessings
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
kjohnson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 12:16pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Patty LeVasseur wrote:
This book has been okay so far. I just know that when I was Baptist the idea of having your quiet time with God was really stressed and I know a lot of people who have made some choices like not homeschooling their children or not helping a mother who had just had a baby or not helping an elderly person because it conflicted with their quiet time with God. I was just wondering how Catholics would view all of this. |
|
|
This attitude that you encountered is not centered on God, but on self. It reminds me of Jesus' condemnation of the Pharisees. When we ignore the love of neighbor for the sake of upholding our construction of "spiritual time," then we are putting ourselves first rather than dying to self. Didn't the Pharisees condemn Jesus for healing on the Sabbath? They put their rules and structure above love and mercy. They missed the whole point. And while He refused to cast the first stone at a woman caught in adultery, Jesus reacted strongly to this kind of false piety. "Woe to you!"
There is a delicate balance to the structure of our quiet prayer time and our active lives (and I certainly don't claim to have reached it). But to ignore another person in need because we have scheduled time alone with God is missing the point. Jesus went away to a lonely place to pray, but when the masses followed Him, He had pity on them and would not let them leave hungry. He didn't say, "Be gone! Can't you see I'm conversing with my Father."
I think the Catholic response would be that we should offer up the inconvenience in our schedule instead of ignoring the needs of another. We can fulfill the legitimate needs of others and as an act of mortification, stay up an hour later or get up an hour earlier to fit in the quiet time with God. Better to deprive ourselves of an hour of sleep than to ignore the needs of our family or those that God has placed in our midst.
Getting quiet time is really hard when you are caring for a family. I don't claim to have figured that one out. I do my best, but I always try to keep in mind that the needs of my family come before any needs that I have. I truly believe that if I were to ignore my duties and needs of my family in order to have more time "alone with God," the time spent would be entirely fruitless.
But I think we can be centered on God throughout the day when we are busy with educating, feeding and caring for our children. That is the beauty of a morning offering. If we keep presence of God throughout the day and everything we do is offered as a gift to God, then there is nothing we are doing that is taking our focus off of Him.
I completely agree with the recommendation of Holiness for Housewives. It is wonderful.
__________________
In Christ,
Katherine
Wife to Doug and Mother of 6
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
AnaB
Forum Pro
Joined: April 12 2005
Location: Florida
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 281
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 12:17pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I have not read the book, but think that paragraph could have been worded much better by the author.
I think the main point is priorities or being centered like Patty said. When I had a 25 month old and newborn twin boys with undiagnosed reflux, NO help, no friends, no husband (he was working 2 jobs and overtime), I was going crazy. It wasn't till I started trying to make some time for me to spend with the LORD that I was able to take care of my children with the right heart attitude.
I really don't think that author was trying to make it a choice between taking care of our children and spending time with God. AT least I hope she wasn'!! I think some people, including me in the past, have used my children as excuses, such as---"I'm too busy taking care of children to get up 15 min. earlier and have a quiet time..."
This really reminds me of Charlotte Mason's thoughts on Mother Culture and all the carnivals of Beauty that we've been having. No matter how many children we have, we have to make time to nurture our spirits or we won't have enough to give to our children.
As much as it is helpful to pray during our duties (I have Holiness for Housewives and loved it too), I still think there needs to be some QUIET time with the Lord some time during our day so that we can just be still and KNOW that He is God (Psalm 46). "Like a weaned child in his mother's lap, I have quieted my soul before Thee..." (Psalm 132:2). For me this means I have to get up earlier than the children. Somedays, the toddler hears me and stays fairly occupied so that I can have quiet. Other days, I head for the bathroom for quiet (until I'm discovered).
Ultimately, we can pray anywhere and anytime. But I think we are really missing out if we don't work to create special times (the firstfruits of our day) to be still before our Creator. It is the only thing that will really center us. It's been the only way I've been able to stay sane during the joyful busyness and craziness of being a homeschooling mom. Hope this helps.
__________________
His By Grace, AnaB blessed WIFE to Jeff and mama to 4 blessings!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hylabrook1
Forum Moderator
Joined: July 09 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5980
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 12:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think the bottom line is BALANCE. ANYTHING in our lives can lead us away from God if we use that thing as an excuse to avoid other things that should be part of our lives -- children can be used as an excuse not to have prayer time, just as prayer time can be an excuse not to care for and delight in our children. Certainly our children and husbands, homes, friends, family --everything, really -- are gifts from God. Responding appropriately and lovingly to the call these gifts place on our lives is a way of moving closer to God. I think living our lives *for God* can legitimately be considered as part of "praying constantly". We should be thankful to God for placing all of these opportunities for prayer in our lives. Fulfilling our vocations as married women is certainly a challenge, as far as keeping a loving and selfless spirit, and having a time for personal prayer is a necessary element in maintaining that spirit. In fact, one of our prayers should be to ask for God's grace and guidance in keeping the balance.
Peace,
Nancy
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mathmama
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 07 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 12:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I haven't read all of the responses, but I would have to say that I disagree. My biggest problem comes when I think about how my time in Liturgy is spent now that I have a child. Before my dd was born I was very attentive in church trying to drink in as much as I could. Now, I spent my time in church trying to make my dd's experience as fruitful as it can be for a 25 month old. I am not always responding and there are times that I go through church and find that I don't even remember what the readings were about. BUT, my daughter LOVES going to church. She often sings the hymns as she is flitting around the house. I want to point out that my time is not spent entertaining her, but rather talking to her about our Lord and the Saints and what is happening in the Liturgy. I think that fostering this love of the Liturgy and Jesus, Mary and the Saints is the best thing that I can be doing while in church. I don't in anyway think that I am committing a sin by doing this. I believe this is what I am called to do. I feel that it would be sinful for me to ignore her desire to learn about the Liturgy in order to "sit at Jesus' feet". I also want to point out, that I feel especially called to do this because as Byzantine Catholics dd is already receiving our Lord.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: Nov 27 2006 at 8:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
On Marium Regnum an Australian Catholic egroup I am on we have just been discussing a book titled "Apostolate Of Motherhood" one mother shared that in the book a young mother wrote, detailing her visions of the Blessed Mother & Jesus. Most significant was that when the mother in the book was having visions, if her children needed her, she recorded Jesus & Our Lady as telling her to go to the children-tend to their needs before finishing their messages to her!
I don't know the source of these visions nor their authencity still if its true well it says it all.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Are children a sin?
