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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 19 2006 at 5:45pm | IP Logged
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How did your kids learn spelling and mechanics -- ie punctuation?
My first three learned how to spell and write correctly pretty much in unschooled fashion. We did very few language lessons until they were middle school age and the few we did, didn't seem to teach so much as just reassure me they were OK.
My middle set seem to have had more trouble with picking up the mechanics by osmosis. They are good readers, like their older siblings, though they did learn to read a little later than the older set. Neither is a reluctant writer. But they just make more mechanical errors than the others did at that age.
So if you did help your children with these things, what do you think "worked"? Anything that DIDN'T work?
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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ShawnaB
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| Posted: Nov 19 2006 at 6:23pm | IP Logged
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Hi Willa!
I'm using lots of copywork for Abraham, after reading Cindy Rushton's book. We play "language detective" with his copywork, where we just talk about the "rules" that the writer used (and he just copied) to make the piece of writing understandable.
I'm also using this Evan-Moorbook to further reinforce basic grammar rules. Its a nice complement and helps him to recognize the grammer he sees in his copy work.
I'm absolutely no help on spelling. Thankfully Abraham is a natural speller...if any of my children inherit my spelling disability, well, I'll probably be posting here for help!
God bless!
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Shawna, wife of Jacob, mom to Abraham 8 Amelia 5 and Jillian & Jonathan age 3 years http://www.psalm121family.com
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Erin
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| Posted: Nov 19 2006 at 9:19pm | IP Logged
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Willa,
After trying many things studied dictation is working the best for us and then they graduate to dictation 
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Erin
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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 20 2006 at 10:34am | IP Logged
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Shawna and Erin, thanks. Neat to hear that the "living" methods are effective. I like those ideas of "copywork detective" and of studied dictation leading to regular.
Shawna, I have just been reading Cindy Rushton's book (probably the same copy you read) and it is inspiring!
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Nov 20 2006 at 10:42am | IP Logged
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Hey Willa!
I have been thinking a good deal about this topic lately, since Trip is excelling in his English class without any formal writing texts, but some bit of copywork, and reading very good books. Libby, under the same circumstances, writes well, too.
Annika is another story, but it seems as though she is simply slower to get to where the older kids are. She often writes odd fragments, but more often writes very long run-on sentences. To remedy this, I have tried things like Voyages in English, which she did diligently, and it did not help one bit. In fact, I am firmly convinced that seeing poorly written sentences in the exercises actually took her back a few steps. So we are back to copywork, and I see slow improvement again. I also have had her begin to read her written work aloud. She does not like this at all, but she sees her mistakes immediately.
It is frustrating to see someone struggle with something that is second nature to me and to the other kids. But I am delighted that the real fix for this is what I have been preaching all along--copywork, dictation, short lessons, and persistence. 
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MacBeth in NY
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hylabrook1
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| Posted: Nov 20 2006 at 11:07am | IP Logged
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My older dc seemed to "get it naturally"; with #4, who technically knows how to use grammar and punctuation correctly, I find that he often becomes forgetful in the course of writing out his ideas. It's like what he wants to say overwhelms how he knows he should say it. We write first drafts to get ideas out there, then edit for correct mechanics. One thing we have used to help remind him of correct usage, punctuation, etc. is to go through English the Easy Way. We do it together orally and have fun with it, as many of the things to be corrected are done with a good deal of humor. This is a good SAT Prep exercise, imo, and I have seen improvement in his recognition of his own errors. (He is 17/11th grade).
The two younger girls are being helped by copywork and dictation, particularly dictation. This calls on them to "listen" for punctuation based on my pauses and intonations, which actually seems to make them sensitive to punctuation as a "real" part of the way we use language.
Peace,
Nancy
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Willa
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| Posted: Nov 20 2006 at 2:20pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
| To remedy this, I have tried things like Voyages in English, which she did diligently, and it did not help one bit. In fact, I am firmly convinced that seeing poorly written sentences in the exercises actually took her back a few steps. |
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That's what I was thinking about our experiments with programmed work like VIE and spelling programs. So it's good to hear it from you, MacBeth. I guess that it's true in our case too that the children are both progressing, even if in not quite the same manner as the older ones did.
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Willa
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Karen E.
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| Posted: Nov 21 2006 at 8:39am | IP Logged
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I have to agree that every time I try a more formal program to "check" our progress, I find that it doesn't necessarily help, and in some cases does actually hinder.
What seems to be working best here (with ages 13 and 10) is reading good books, correcting and talking about the things they actually write on their own (such as stories, which they are motivated to write, and which they enjoy writing) and ... blogging. 
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Karen E.
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Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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lapazfarm
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I have found the same to be true here also. The best thing for ds has been just reading alot, writing, and correcting his writing. Formal stuff doesn't seem to help at all because he never makes the connect between that and his own written work.
As MacBeth said, having ds read his work aloud has been a GREAT tool for learning sentence structure and grammar.
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Carole N.
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| Posted: Nov 21 2006 at 10:48am | IP Logged
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From everything that I have read/discussed it seems that children seem to learn quicker when working with their own writing. I have put mine through "formal" grammar, but have yet to see it transfer coompletely into their own writing. It is like a mental block.
But from what I have heard from "professional" educators, the transfer of formal spelling and grammar to their own writing generally lags behind by a couple of years. And they tell me the best way to accomplish this is with their own writing trying to focus on one or two topics per written piece.
That is the tactic that I am using this year. I have also incorporated copywork/dictation into our program. It seems to be an excellent way to help them "hear" grammar. Which when I think about myself (I used to teach grammar/writing in the PS), it is how I know that the grammar is correct--by the sound.
Okay this is an a-hah moment (spelling is not my strong point).
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ALmom
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I don't know if it has as much to do with the program that you use as with going slowly. A child needs time for each concept to settle and become a part of long-term memory.
The biggest problem with workbooks is not the workbook itself but how quickly dc are inclined to rush through them and how easy it is to just fill in the blanks. I found the grammar texts a helpful outline on what needed to be covered - and some organized way to go about presenting these things. I didn't just have the dc do the exercises blindly but they are a useful tool for a brief presentation of the concept. If you take your time and reinforce the new lesson from real work the child is doing, then it can work just as well as anything else, at least for my dc, and it was easier on the mom. Editing their own work is about the same as the workbooks and we combine doing both before moving on.
If my dc has raced through the workbook (they like workbooks because they don't like having to wait for me) and I notice that there is some repeated mistake. We go through and the child does corrections, then we put the workbook aside until this new concept is automatic in their own work. I will have them correct this one thing wherever it pops up - in a workbook answer, completed work, etc. I am on the lookout for this specific thing.
We do use grammar texts with the children and they help us. But we have never just done the workbook - we just do not have any goal to finish these in any set time. It doesn't much matter whether you pick Voyages level 4 or voyages level 8, they all cover the same basic things. (I generally pick one Seton grammar course somewhere in middle school- but we take as long as we need to complete it and use CHC grammar loosely before that time). I can usually find where my dc have the most problems pretty quickly from this - and then we reinforce it, demand that it be done correctly in final work, etc. But we pick one thing at a time. One of my dc was notorious for putting absolutely no punctuation anywhere. I read it just as it was written - out of breath and all (gently not in a make fun way - but he did get the idea that he had given no clue as to where one thought stopped and a new one began). Then I required that he start with a capital, end with some sort of punctuation. When that was solid, we focused on the next thing. But noting that he did not punctuate his work, we did do plenty of workbook type exercises on just this concept followed by a very strict demand on my part that he follow through in his own work. Using the idea that real authors, write and edit and re - edit kept them from feeling like "failures" but at the same time it was a motivator for attentiveness as at some point when I got the feeling that they were just rushing without thinking, I would require that they copy their own sentences correctly. If a workbook answer was not punctuated, that sentence had to be copied correctly to a piece of paper. If they answered a science question without punctuation, I did the same thing. Now I didn't do this initially - but at some point when it seemed to be an appropriate consequence - they hated writing anything so much that they just rushed without thinking - so giving them fair warning that from now on, questions answered without punctuation did the trick. They hated this as it took them soooooo long to write, that they learned to be careful. and to think about what they were doing.
Now, on rough drafts that were for essay writing, we did correct these same things but as editing was done on the computer, it wasn't such a chore and dc didn't mind this as much. I didn't want to make the process of writing an essay a hateful thing as my goal here was to get them willing to actually write.
For spelling, most of my children needed a non visually based system and we use the Writing Road to get past the initial spelling hump - at which time we are then able to basically look at forming spelling from their own work or vocabulary. It involves dictating words and analyzing them with a red marker. I heavily modify this as well - making sure that dc are successful with hints etc. This has worked for us. I really had a hard time doing copywork as this was something my children did not have visual skills to do early on - it took far too long, was a miserable experience for them even with something simple to copy and they avoided this task which often involved totally losing the place. I suppose I could have dictated - but then they needed me to be there and if it wasn't totally quiet they would get frustrated with the writing and....it basically was like me trying to work with multi-levels. For whatever reason, we just couldn't seem to get this off. A workbook allowed them to do some of the same things without the tediousness of so much writing.
I think my dc are helped by the explanations of why things are done and since most have started with visual memory deficits as well as other vision problems, it was the analyzing that helped them sort this out. I know we may be coming from a much different angle than most, but I did want to remind folks that you can use just about anything effectively if you want or need to.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Writing correctly? how did it come about?
