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Erin
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Never was I so embarrassed as yesterday when ds7 and dd5 had a FIGHT in the public library  first I had to take them out and give them a talk about teasing and squawking in the library. We concluded the visit with a puchup in the library foyer in FULL view of librarians and patrons Ds was dreadful.
I have really let way too much go when I was pregnagnt and am now reaping the seeds  I'm unhappy with physical discipling them as it doesn't make an impression and it is still more of that cycle.
What consequences would you suggest for hitting, kicking, pinching etc? And also what about when one child teases and stirs another to the point of frustration? The teaser is also in the wrong.
(Please don't think they are like this all the time, but it happens more than I would like I DO NOT want a repeat of yesterday)
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Erin
Faith Filled Days
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Servant2theKing
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Erin,
I truly sympathize. Do not give up hope though. It's not the end of the world. Someday you'll probably even laugh with your children over "The Horrible Day at the Library", especially when you share tales of this incident with your grandchildren as your children are telling their childrenm what angels they were when they were young!
The difficulty you just experienced can be humbling as a parent, but you can also use this as an incredible teaching moment with your children. Try to think of it as a golden opportunity to focus together on proper behavior, both at home and in public. It may not happen overnight, especially with younger children, but any efforts you make to teach and guide your children in this area will eventually reap rich rewards. I like to remember that the root of dicipline comes from "disciple" which means "to teach"!
One thing that has been really effective in our household is something we call "Monastic Discipline". Rather than the typical timeout, we borrowed a method used in convents and monasteries. We have the offending child(ren) lie face down on the floor for a time of silent reflection on their behavior or attitude. When there has been an offense against another person, we have even resorted to having them make a "public" confession or apology, similar to the practice used by the sisters in "The Nun's Story". I've been surprised at how much more effective this has been than many other discipline techniques we've tried through the years. It was inspired by reading several books on Benedictine spirituality. Amazingly, the Lord had placed it on our hearts to focus in that direction quite awhile before Pope Benedict was elected. Two books we found inspiring were "Listen My Son, St. Benedict for Fathers", by Dwight Longenecker and "The Family Cloister, Benedictine Wisdom for the Home", by David Robinson. Another book by Dwight Longencker, with similar inspiration, is "St. Benedict and St. Therese, The Little Rule & the Little Way".
Another effective tool is to use hand signals or sign language in public. This takes practice and training ahead of time at home, but anything you do to prepare your children now will richly pay off with more enjoyable outings in the future. It helps to remember that situations in public can be challenging and uncomfortable at times, even for us adults. I sometimes feel at odds in public settings and wonder if our children might suffer in a similar way, but just act out more than we adults might.
One other thing to consider; if your children have had more sugar than usual this time of year, it's worthwhile to forego any more treats for awhile, until the sugar high has dissipated. I know many people dismiss the idea that sugar affects childrens' behavior, but we had an episode that finally convinced even my sceptical mother...I had forewarned her that our then three year old son might act up in Holy Mass if she gave him candy (a favorite grandmotherly privilege she liked to indulge in). She insisted on giving him a miniature Tootsie Roll. Within minutes he flipped right over the back of the pew in front of us, and had to be carefully escorted to the back of church for the rest of Mass. Forever after my mother has been content to save the treats for elsewhere.
I hope you've recovered from your library episode. As I've been trying to write this, my daughter had to place her daughter, my granddaughter in "Monastic Discipline", not far from our computer...I had to laugh at her wailing complaint over the discipline...so much for words of wisdom on this entire subject! Ah well, we do the best we can and just keep plugging along, eh?
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JennGM
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Servant2theKing wrote:
| One thing that has been really effective in our household is something we call "Monastic Discipline". Rather than the typical timeout, we borrowed a method used in convents and monasteries. We have the offending child(ren) lie face down on the floor for a time of silent reflection on their behavior or attitude. When there has been an offense against another person, we have even resorted to having them make a "public" confession or apology, similar to the practice used by the sisters in "The Nun's Story". I've been surprised at how much more effective this has been than many other discipline techniques we've tried through the years. It was inspired by reading several books on Benedictine spirituality. Amazingly, the Lord had placed it on our hearts to focus in that direction quite awhile before Pope Benedict was elected. Two books we found inspiring were "Listen My Son, St. Benedict for Fathers", by Dwight Longenecker and "The Family Cloister, Benedictine Wisdom for the Home", by David Robinson. Another book by Dwight Longencker, with similar inspiration, is "St. Benedict and St. Therese, The Little Rule & the Little Way". |
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Hmmm...this brings up a subject I wanted to discuss. Maybe it's another thread. While I'm familiar with many of these books, I don't feel totally comfortable with this idea. Monastic discipline was for formed adults who were forging a religious vocation and refining their faults. I don't know if in the formative years this would work. My mother a few times did some punishments that she might call "humbling", but in my memory they bring memories of "shame."
I'm reading (very slowly) The Highly Sensitive Child. While I don't know if my son and I completely fit the pattern, there are elements that I think apply for all children. One point she makes is shaming a child, especially a sensitive one, is not a good form of displine. Or that's what I took from it.
I'm digesting this book slowly because I can't wrap my mind around how to apply some suggestions but still keep the Catholic point of view in growing in the Faith and and a sense of self-giving, sacrifices, and charity. For our souls to grow we do have to step out of our comfort zone (read: lukewarmness). And so what parts are psychological babble and what parts are true points I can apply?
But I digress...for Erin's example, her children 5 and 7 are such a young age and not culpable. There's the formative and corrective stage, but before their First Communion should they be at the self-accusing of their faults? I do think that at a young age we start teaching them to reflect on their day, their failings, their joys...the beginning of examination of conscience. I know your examples is not meant to be "shaming" but in a child's mind it could be. While I'm not trying to shoot you down, Servant, I'm just trying to figure out for myself what is the fine line I can tread to help my child grow?
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Erin
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You know I don't know that my children would think that monastic discipline would be humbling, in fact I am inclined to think that they would find it rather 'cool' and in the beginning try to 'bring it on' although one ds possibly would find it humilating, I take your point Jenn, then on the other hand this ds struggles to humble himself to apologise and that is an important issue too. I am always conscious of not shaming him in front of his friends in fact he becomes more defiant if he ever feels shame he has to 'save face', I try to avoid those situations. Different tacks work with different children.
What you mention Servant about 'the little way' that is what i am trying to get through to them. I've been reflecting on this all day what is it that has me so distressed, I think it is that I'm trying to reach their hearts and just don;t feel like I am getting them.
They simply don;t seem to care. You mention Jenn that they are young and not culpable. Well my ds7 most certainly is, he has made his FHC and he reallly KNOWS. that is what distresses me the most, the fact that he deliberately comes back and has another go, he gives into HIS will and does not bend his will to God. Perhaps this doesn't come overnight it is something that takes years, I don;t know because my older dc seem to want to do THEIR will too not God's. I am so weary of this, is it me or do all parents struggle with this??
Jenn what you say about '
Jenn wrote:
| keep the Catholic point of view in growing in the Faith and and a sense of self-giving, sacrifices, and charity. |
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' is EXACTLY what I am trying to achieve and getting nowhere. See on top of it I am questioning how I have raised the dc thus far, I think in an effort to not 'repeat my parents errors' I have swung too far. I do feel that the dc don't 'sacrifice enough' by this I mean deny oneself for another. I have gone so far in making sure that all chores are fairly divided that I haven't taught self-sacrifice enough. And their behaviour to one another is a lack of charity. You know I think I might type up those three words and put them on the wall. If I could find stories to illustrate what is meant by them, stories to inspire that would help. Perhaps a daily dose 
I think also Jenn where you talk about daily examining, I need to do that more regualry I don't always I've also been pondering today that I think we need to go to confession more often also.
Servant, you are right, one day I probably will laugh, I hope. I am very familiar with the whole food trigger arena. Ds11 is VERY sensitive to artificial chemical and I am also familiar with natural food chemicals as I have a df shose children are affected by natural chemicals in fruit and vegetables. for example do you know that grapes have a natural MSG in them that can make some children hypo? (A whold nother topic)
I had forgotten that discipline means 'to teach, which is probably part of the problem, I find when I keep my cool I can deal with issues and it all simmers down quickly, when I lose it everything esculates, I am teaching them the wrong things. To be a parent is a privelge and a joy at times but when I stop to think about the responsibilty God has entrusted me with, well tonight upon reflection I am daunted.
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Servant2theKing
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I should have expounded on the concept of Monastic Discipline. This is not something suggested in the books I mentioned, but rather something we came up with on our own after reading those books. It is not meant to foster shame, but rather more of a chance for quieting down and contemplating one's behavior. For our children, it simply helps them reflect on how they ought to behave. We use it with more of a sense of helping them get back on track with appropriate behavior or attitude. (We don't use it in public)
The "public" confession or apology is simply that they must apologize to the person they have directly hurt or offended and ask them to forgive them. It is not used for shaming the children, but as a means of helping them see that their actions effect one another and we ought to ask forgiveness from those we hurt or injure when we do such things. We definitely do not use the same style practiced in convents or monasteries, but have used the concepts in an age-appropriate way for children.
When our oldest children were in a Catholic school, there was a teacher who really stood out among any of the other teachers as having a wonderful way of disciplining or "disciple-ing" children...she would have the children rest their heads on their desks, either individually or as a class, when things got out of hand. Hers was the best behaved and happiest class in that school! The "Monastic Discipline" we use echoes that method and simply helps the children to calm themselves down, and gives them time to think about their actions.
I think such a method works for our family because our children have read about or seen examples of monastic life on videos and they see it as a good thing. They tend to relate better to creative or unique methods of discipline. Once, when our then 7yo ds was utterly overwrought and having trouble calming himself down, I told him he must obey...he responded in total frustration, "But, I can't obey." The Lord promptly gave me the inspiration for a little song that we still sing to this day, "I COWOMO God...I can obey, I will obey, I must obey God".
I also came up with a salute they give me when receiving "orders or commands"..."Yes, Ma'am, right away Ma'am, Mama Commander, Sir". It started as a little joke to address the fact that they weren't responding well to my instructions. Our boys really relate to the miltary flavor and it has been useful for reminding them they need to have right away, quick obedience.
With prayer and patience, we can survive the ups and downs of parenting. We are all weak, imperfect human beings, blessed with free will...none of us will ever be perfect, parents or children. The key in all discipline is to have love, mercy and the betterment of our souls at the heart of all that we do.
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doris
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The other part of the lying down thing (at least in some monastic communities) is that the offended party knocks on the table to indicate when the offending party can get up -- that emphasises the part that both play in forgiveness. My dh and I used to lie down as a way of saying sorry to each other but we've forgotten about it recently. It's not something I would want to impose on my children because it has to come from the heart.
Anyway, back to the original question. I found that it really helped to have some positively worded 'house rules' that dd wrote out/decorated that we could all remember. ie kind hands, kind words, kind voices = no hitting, no name calling, no shouting! if you work on the list together, you can all commit to them and it's much better than continually repeating 'Don't'. Also your children can remind you when you don't stick to it as well. My dd told me this morning when I raised my voice, "Mummy, you're not acting as an image of God!" Annoying, but true
I found 'How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk' (by Faber and Mazlish) a really helpful book. It's much more liberal than I would naturally be, and I don't follow it slavishly, but it's really helpful in terms of examining how children feel about things ie getting them to choose good behaviour rather than have it imposed on them.
I know some families which are very strict and the kids are really awful when the parents' backs are turned. I don't believe in letting children run riot, of course, but being overly strict can do more harm than good.
Elizabeth
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Philothea
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JennGM wrote:
Hmmm...this brings up a subject I wanted to discuss. Maybe it's another thread. While I'm familiar with many of these books, I don't feel totally comfortable with this idea. Monastic discipline was for formed adults who were forging a religious vocation and refining their faults. I don't know if in the formative years this would work. My mother a few times did some punishments that she might call "humbling", but in my memory they bring memories of "shame."
I'm reading (very slowly) The Highly Sensitive Child. While I don't know if my son and I completely fit the pattern, there are elements that I think apply for all children. One point she makes is shaming a child, especially a sensitive one, is not a good form of displine. Or that's what I took from it.
I'm digesting this book slowly because I can't wrap my mind around how to apply some suggestions but still keep the Catholic point of view in growing in the Faith and and a sense of self-giving, sacrifices, and charity. For our souls to grow we do have to step out of our comfort zone (read: lukewarmness). And so what parts are psychological babble and what parts are true points I can apply?
But I digress...for Erin's example, her children 5 and 7 are such a young age and not culpable. There's the formative and corrective stage, but before their First Communion should they be at the self-accusing of their faults? I do think that at a young age we start teaching them to reflect on their day, their failings, their joys...the beginning of examination of conscience. I know your examples is not meant to be "shaming" but in a child's mind it could be. While I'm not trying to shoot you down, Servant, I'm just trying to figure out for myself what is the fine line I can tread to help my child grow? |
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You know, I'm reading a (secular) book called "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" right now, and I can tell it's going to be life-changing. Her focus is on the parents disciplining themselves, working on their OWN self-control, in order to be a model for the children. She talks about "Seven Powers for Self Control," which are:
1. The Power of Perception: No one can MAKE you angry without your permission.
2. The Power of Attention: What you focus on, you will get more of.
3. The Power of Free Will: The only person you can MAKE change is yourself.
4. The Power of Unity: Focus on connecting instead of trying to be special.
5. The Power of Love: See the best in one another.
6. The Power of Acceptance: This moment is as it is.
7. The Power of Intention: Conflict is an opportunity to teach.
These seven "powers" lead to her seven basic discipline skills, which are:
1. Composure: Living the values you want your children to develop. This teaches integrity.
2. Encouragment: Honoring your children so they will honor you. This teaches interdependence.
3. Assertiveness: Saying no and being heard. This teaches respect.
4. Choices: Building self-esteem and willpower. This teaches commitment.
5. Positive Intent: Turning resistance into cooperation. This teaches cooperation.
6. Empathy: Handling the fussing and the fits. This teaches compassion.
7. Consequences: Helping children learn from their mistakes. This teaches responsibility.
So far, although the text is a major paradigm shift from where I've been, I haven't thought of it as "psychobabble," and I'm sensitive to that. In fact, as I've been reading, I've been struck by the idea that if you laid the framework of her theory over Catholic teaching on human relationships, they're nearly identical.
Where the Church says "be charitable," the author says "assume the best intentions in other people even when they do something that displeases you." Where the Church says Self Control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, the author says "Self Control is an act of love and a choice you make again and again." Where the Church says not to be a slave to sin, the author says "It is time to retrain our minds so that we will no longer be slaves to our impulses and insecurities."
I really love the book so far and will be working to implement her suggestions. It has been a real eye-opener for me, particularly the idea that I cannot expect myself to discipline my child well until I learn to discipline myself, because my parents were part of the cycle of poor self- and child-discipline themselves, and of course they passed that on to me. To expect myself to be a good teacher to my kids without working on the skills myself is like expecting to be able to teach pole-vaulting or rocket science with no training whatsoever.
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JennGM
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Too many posts for me to quote. But first of all, Servant, your second explanation cleared it up for me. When the child offends another person, I do see that amends needs to be made, and apologies are in order. And the offense is upon the whole family, public apology, too. I don't know if I'd go so far as to lying on the floor...mostly becasue I know I'm not comfortable in that. I don't want to make my child do something I wouldn't want to do myself.
And Erin, I'm no expert as I only have one child, but one that that my mother really drilled in us is to see Jesus in our brothers and sisters. Over and over again. I rememeber as a little girl visualizing my sister as Jesus and how I would not treat her that way. I failed miserably a lot of times...trust me!
My continual struggle, even as a little girl, is immersing myself in selfishness...it makes me unhappy. I thrive on stepping outside of myself to see other people's needs...but I need reminders. So some outside reminders, like posting Corporal Works of Mercy, with family applications for each one, talking about 1 Cor 13 as applied to family members.....
Philothea...thanks for the book recommendation. I can't wait to look it over. My post probably sounds like I MUST make HSP label work...I'm not thinking that. I just want to see if I can find some elements to apply.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Servant2theKing
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Erin, don't forget your family is going through a lot of stress with an impending move. When we went through a similar time two years ago, and my father was dying right in the midst of it all, I found myself making extra efforts to maintain quality family time and having increased prayertime...both gave us profound peace throughout those difficult days.
One simple way to incorporate examine of conscience into daily life is to include an Act of Contrition in your family prayertime. A short prayer and a time for reflection can be helpful if there has been difficulty in that area throughout the day. I find the more faithful we are to pray as a family, the less we seem to slip into more negative interactions.
BTW, I think I should clarify...my granddaughter's wailing over being put into monastic discipline was from anger over being disciplined at all, not because she feels any shame over that type of discipline. Just one strong-willed little girl letting the world know she does not like being told "No". I'm glad my daughter is the one blessed with disciple-ing her!!!
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Discipline Hints
