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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 10 2006 at 11:46pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth - or anyone else:
My daughter has somehow become "in charge" of the music for Mass for students at college. Now, she has been asked to do things that just don't seem right to her - and also has found out that she has no say in music selected - except that she can select Communion Meditation with some approval. When she agreed to do this, she thought she would have some say in music played. She really suffers through the selected hymns.
So, I guess what this really means is that she runs the practice and shows up to play with very little input into what they do and often without having the music for the piano until the last minute ( they only ordered guitar music and had promised piano music for a while but it has yet to come in - she was hoping this would be a good excuse to try some of the chant arrangements but that was nixed by Father though the choir was very excited about it and had fun messing around with it in practice and didn't sound bad at all - so it is a good thing she is a great sight reader). This is volunteer as well so this gives you a picture. She wants to try to improve the situation to the extent that she can - starting with quality. She also would like to have documentation to help express why she does not want to do certain things. I think she is willing to work, as a volunteer, for a while to see if she can improve things before totally giving up in disgust and throwing in the towel. The sad part is that she could play much better hymns in the church just across from the Catholic church and get paid at least $75 per service. She has contemplated getting jobs there.
Evidently before she came, the poor choir members were having to stop mid-Mass because the pianist would lose her place and often folks were croaking through parts. She also wants to be able to approach Father with documentation for any of the things that are not correct according to rubrics. Currently, she has been asked to play music while Father begins the preparatory prayers (I'm not sure whether he wants the choir to keep singing or just my dd to keep playing - I've seen it done both ways). These prayers are the ones that normally have the response "Blessed Be God Forever." I don't know why, but around here this is very, very common and personally extremely distracting and annoying. Reading the instructions it sounds like these qualify as "Presidential Texts" to be spoken aloud and should not be accompanied. Anyways, she started out just playing dumb and not doing it - but now Father has asked her directly so she has to either get him to accept that she will not do this, step down or just do as he tells her though everything we read seems to say this is not allowed.
Are there any other instructions regarding this? Perhaps we are misunderstanding something or there are other allowances somewhere. This will never be our favorite - but if we have misunderstood and the church allows it that might make a difference in whether or not she keeps playing here. Any references that are must haves for Catholic musicians. With Libby so involved in church music, I figured you might have some references and good advice or ideas. I know our dd will not have tons of time to do major research - she is a music performance major who still has to earn a bit for college (she does this by accompanying some voice majors for their lessons), orchestra is in full swing and juries are coming up. If she backs out, does she just use how busy she is - or does she honestly say something about the music? This is the only church she can attend.
As an aside one of the voice major's professors was chatting about being in a church choir - it came out that the voice major was singing at her church - "Oh, a choir?" "Well, sort of." "Where do you go to church?" ".....Catholic Church" "Oh that explains it. The Catholic church doesn't like good music." This voice major is the one who recruited our dd obviously with the same thing in mind - improving the music somehow. It is so sad that we have gone from being the patrons of good music to being known as the church that doesn't like good music.  There are a few students in the choir and also just at Mass that are trying to improve things or supportive of this that they know of. She does have permission to do Panis Angelicus for the Communion Meditation (she has recruited a pianist so she can play violin and the voice major is fully capable of singing well. A prayer that this goes over well with the students so that they might just make enough comments to Father that he will allow more of the traditional music in the Mass at large would be greatly appreciated. She had asked about some Gregorian chant - told outright no but given permission for this - though Father seems to think the students won't be "able to take it." My daughter smiled and said, "Father, I'm expanding their horizons" at which everyone thought she was adorably cute. Father seems to like the really yuk stuff with drum and is not very fond of the traditional hymns.
So far her one successful attempt at improvement is to have a sign up sheet so that she does know who is planning to show up - and what they do. Until this, she never knew who was showing up from week to week - and what instruments were involved. So far they have had a drummer, guitarist and my dd on piano (she also plays organ but the church doesn't have one). Anyways, whoever shows up has to be included in the choir so she doesn't have any say over skill level. It is a rather odd combination and the selected hymns are a real cross for my dd (along with the drummer not keeping the beat). I think she just found out there will be another instrument next week (flute, I think she said) - but so far they have not shown up for practice.
I know she is beginning to feel a bit saddened. The campus is very secular, there is heavy partying every weekend and some partying with drunks every day of the week(to go along with football games and horrific behavior at games to include yelling curse words at the other team) and from what my dd says, it is hard to distinguish the Catholics from any other group. She doesn't have much in common with most people - though she has various people she does things with. She tried the retreat offered for Catholic students - she said some of the social stuff was fun (row boats) but the handouts seemed questionable (she had to leave before that part of the retreat as she had been hired to play the same yukky music for Mass for the parish (the AM Masses are parish Masses and evidently the church does pay a very small stipend to the pianist for those - a pleasant surprise) and in this case it seems like it was providential that she missed this part of the retreat.
The evangelicals on campus, who she probably has the most in common with morally, keep to themselves - finding their support in off-campus churches as all the ones on campus seem to be major liberal. They generally are friendly to Catholics only to invite them to their church and to "save" them but otherwise tend to see us as "worshipping Mary, etc." I think she was hoping to find some bosom buddies since this was a large institution as opposed to our little homeschool. However, she'll be fine - she is used to being a bit by herself and relates well and forms easy acqaintances with all types of people - you just don't have the same bonding as with someone who shares the most important values and faith with you. She is tactful and seems to get away with a lot. Evidently they all think she is very funny and cute (she says cuteness gets a lot done and as a Freshman that "doesn't know any better" she can get away with a bit more - like getting graduate(doctoral candidates) students to cheerfully sign her attendance/volunteer list).
Any advice, suggested reading material, etc. is very welcome. Thanks.
Janet
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 7:42am | IP Logged
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I can really empathize with your daughter's predicament. My suggestion for working with the priest is to 1) go very slowly with any changes; he's the pastor and used to having everything the way he wants it, and 2) go armed with the bishops' book on music and liturgy, so she can at least know she's properly informed, even if the priest wants her to do something outside the rubrics. (This happens a lot. In the end, the priest usually wins.)
She might want to approach the priest with the concept that she has an ever-changing roster of musicians, so she would like to "help" choose music so that he doesn't pick something that the musicians of the week really can't play. Or, they could develop a list of songs she could use as substitutes if only the flautist and drummer show up, for example, so she could change a song or two out right before Mass if need be.
Advent is a great time to toss in a chant or two. The music is supposed to be a bit more subdued, and "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel" is a very traditional, chanted Advent song that almost everyone knows. I'd probably try to work in one chant per liturgical season...I know this isn't a lot, but imagine if you did this for every season (counting Ordinary Time as several, since it's broken up); the students would then have learned 6-7 traditional hymns each year. Then they would be able to use those the next year PLUS the new ones.
In my experience it doesn't work out well to drastically change the musical style all at once, particularly if the priest doesn't like traditional music (it's just the same the other way round, too!).
Another tactic your daughter could try is to mention that when American Catholics go to Mass in Rome, they are often the only ones who don't know the Latin chant versions of the Sanctus, Agnus Dei, etc. Perhaps the students could learn one of these chants at a time (start in Lent?) with the stated intent of getting them ready to share in worship world-wide. (I can supply the name of our pastor in Italy, who made us all learn the Latin chants for this express reason, since he was embarrassed that his countryment were mute at St. Peter's, if that will help.) Most college students love the idea of world travel...!!!
The skill level issue can't be fixed easily, but it's a good opportunity for your daughter to really help these young musicians. I know I learned so, so much from practically every church choir I joined...if not instrumentally, then vocally, depending on the director's emphasis. This may be a real trial for your daughter...to be the one in charge, with no hope of a totally talented consistent group...but it may turn out to be an important ministry. (I can really empathize with this one, because I once had a choir member who was totally tone-deaf and wanted to sing. We let her. It turned out she really needed some spiritual help...don't know if we provided it, but at least she was going to Mass weekly and Father knew her when the crisis time came.)
It's painful to say this, but in the end the pastor is going to get his way about music and everything else. However, it's possible to slowly add a repertoire of hymns, chanted psalms, Latin, etc. as long as it's done one or two pieces at a time. (I've done something like this and seen it done in other choirs as well.) If the students like the new pieces, your daughter should ask them to please tell Father that they like that specific hymn. He'll respond to both positive and negative comments from the congregation.
I hope some of this has been helpful. Your daughter can give so much to this group, because it sounds like the music was really a detractor from worship before she came. She just can't change the priest's preferences overnight (nor can he change hers!). I'll pray for her, definitely.
One more thought...for many college-age Catholics, being involved in a music program is all that brings them to Mass. Your daughter's talents and enthusiasm may just be helping a few people stay faithful to the Church. In time, the music group will bond together. It takes more than a couple of months for this to happen, though.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 10:44am | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| Currently, she has been asked to play music while Father begins the preparatory prayers (I'm not sure whether he wants the choir to keep singing or just my dd to keep playing - I've seen it done both ways). These prayers are the ones that normally have the response "Blessed Be God Forever." I don't know why, but around here this is very, very common and personally extremely distracting and annoying. Reading the instructions it sounds like these qualify as "Presidential Texts" to be spoken aloud and should not be accompanied. |
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Hey Janet! It's great news that your daughter gets to play such an important role! I have many thoughts, but I am running in and out today (like every day, huh?). I do want to let you know, though, that the particular rite you speak of above may be done either way, with the music over the quiet prayers of the priest, or with the response of the people. The former, chant and quiet, is the more traditional way, derived directly from the Tridentine Rite. 
According to the GIRM:
141. At the altar the priest accepts the paten with the bread. With both hands he holds it slightly raised above the altar and says quietly, Benedictus es, Domine (Blessed are you, Lord). Then he places the paten with the bread on the corporal.
142. After this, as the minister presents the cruets, the priest stands at the side of the altar and pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water). He returns to the middle of the altar, takes the chalice with both hands, raises it a little, and says quietly, Benedictus es, Domine (Blessed are you, Lord). Then he places the chalice on the corporal and covers it with a pall, as appropriate. If, however, there is no Offertory chant and the organ is not played, in the presentation of the bread and wine the priest may say the formulas of blessing aloud, to which the people make the acclamation, Benedictus Deus in saecula (Blessed be God for ever).
I know, though, when you are not used to something, it may seem strange and annoying. I read recently of a person who attended a Latin Mass for the first time and felt deprived! There was only one reading before the gospel, he declared...he wanted two!
I'll try and get back to you with more thoughts this evening. I am embarrassed to write that I have a growing queue of correspondence requiring my attention... 
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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Kathryn UK
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 12:49pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
ALmom wrote:
| Currently, she has been asked to play music while Father begins the preparatory prayers (I'm not sure whether he wants the choir to keep singing or just my dd to keep playing - I've seen it done both ways). These prayers are the ones that normally have the response "Blessed Be God Forever." I don't know why, but around here this is very, very common and personally extremely distracting and annoying. Reading the instructions it sounds like these qualify as "Presidential Texts" to be spoken aloud and should not be accompanied. |
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Hey Janet! It's great news that your daughter gets to play such an important role! I have many thoughts, but I am running in and out today (like every day, huh?). I do want to let you know, though, that the particular rite you speak of above may be done either way, with the music over the quiet prayers of the priest, or with the response of the people. The former, chant and quiet, is the more traditional way, derived directly from the Tridentine Rite. |
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I've known it done both ways here, but remember being told long ago by a liturgically well informed priest that it was preferable to say it silently while music was played or sung. Glad MacBeth could pull the GIRM reference out of her hat though, as I could only have given you a very vague answer!
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Dh Michael,  Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 2:09pm | IP Logged
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Thanks to both - so what I hear you saying is that as long as the background is truely background music without words and subdued, then it is acceptable - but I didn't really see that in the quoted GIRM - perhaps because I am so dense. (We're often subjected to a loud pop sounding song - including words during this time which is why it is particularly annoying - at Easter we had the repeated "roll away the stone, roll away the stone" - a sort of pop tune sound with a drum). Thanks MacBeth for the reference to Girm 141 & 142 - I am looking at the same document. But this is referring to an offertory chant and I am a bit confused. I know that Father is perfectly allowed to chant his parts or to continue in silence if preferred. (If he prays these silently it isn't an issue - just that while he is praying these prayers silently, we are all then still listening to whatever hymn was sung for the bringing up of the gifts. Is this really allowed? I thought articles 30, 32 and 38 addressed this (these were being quoted by a priest from the Angelicum in Rome in response to a question about singing and he indicated that the words (say/said could also be understood as sung) I could be mixing up what exactly this part of the prayer is considered - . Father is not asking our dd to accompany him so that he can chant the part proper. He just wants the silent space filled up and the song distracts from the action of the altar.
Anyways I'm confused, don't even know what to tell my dd is the churches position and know this is not an area of my expertise. We feel an obligation to know what the Universal church intends so that we are maintaining the proper obedience. If it is truely allowed, then the obedient thing is to do it Father's way (regardless of our own personal tastes) - he is the one in charge of the liturgy. But if he is asking her to do something the church has forbidden - then she has an obligation (because it is requiring action on her part contrary to the Church's instructions) to point out the document and express her hesitation and if she is still being forced to do this, she has to step down as she cannot be in disobedience to the Universal church. (Now maybe I'm a bit pharasaical on this - and I really don't mind someone helping me think this through and I really don't know what you do when the situation is so muddied that no one seems to know what the Church really wants - which is what I think the real situation is!). But we are not to act in doubt .... so what is a person to do.
I'd like to get my dd copies of any other documents you reference - because the GIRM as we read it seemed to imply differently (I printed the whole darn thing off the internet and it was huge!) and that is all we have at the moment other than the Vatican II documents and the book from RCB called Papal Legislation on Sacred Music from 95 AD to 1970.
Also, on the Lamb of God I have heard 2 different things(from individuals)- one that the words cannot be changed and the other that strophes can be added but you must have the 2 Lamb of God who take away the sins of the world and you must end with Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, grant us peace. Which is correct? Where do we find the documentation of this? I have the documents from Vat. II on the Sacred Liturgy which indicate that none of these prayers may be changed by anyone.
I know my daughter is willing to put up with things that are not her preference, not the best quality,in her opinion since she can humbly acquesce that she is learning and chosing liturgical hymns has not been directly assigned to her - when she picks, she will pick ones that she considers of the best quality, etc. in an attempt to improve things gradually. She knows that she will often have to play things not in her preference - but the Mass is not about her preferences or tastes in music and she is aware of this. However, there should be a sacred character, an aid to worship and in keeping with whatever instructions the church has given - and everything should be of the highest quality or it is not fit for the church. Obviously, she has to work with what she has and build to that point with patience and prayer and she has a gift from God that should be shared. She cannot be in disobedience to the Universal Church even if the local pastor is requesting it - nor can she be in disobedience to the local pastor so the only option left in that case is to step down - but we don't want to do this if we are misunderstanding things.
But my problem and what has me stewing a bit is that nothing seems very clear and it seems there are mulitiple interpretations of the same documents. We're going nuts trying to figure out what the church is asking. If there is mass confusion, what do you do - just do whatever the pastor wants? I'm really grappling with this as we are in some odd situations. Sitting in the pew it isn't as much a problem because you are not responsible for what goes on - we can quietly pray the correct Lamb of God without drawing any attention to ourselves or without making any "statement" and we simply won't sing those hymns that are things like "the church is nothing more than 2 windows and a door until the people start streaming in". But if you are leading in some way, you have a graver and more direct obligation.
What we have the most trouble with is when she is required to do things that the church has made a clear statement against. Or what does she do when she is asked to lead the choir in a hymn that is doctrinely incorrect - what are her obligations here.
I think it is very obvious that the church intended that music maintain a sacred character, not be a bringing into the church of theatrical or styles associated with the profane while still encourageing whole congregation singing and being open to the development of music (now this is worded so fuzzily and my understanding was that the church was supposed to come up with some sort of book of acceptable hymns and that hymns were to be given approval before being added - but this does not exist so at the moment there are huge differences of opinion as to what actually constitutes bringing the profane into the church - some would argue that rap is simply a style of music and could be modified - others would see very little outside traditional hymnody and Gregorian chant and there are a lot in between). At one point we were told that the piano was not allowed in church (evidently it is still not allowed in Byzantine and it was specifically forbidden at one point in time. I think I am understanding things correctly but the church now allows any instrument as long as it is used to aid the choir/congregational singing and does not drown them out and what they are playing is suitable. It also intended that the Gregorian chant be preserved and that a minimum repertoire was maintained among the faithful. I realize this is a gradual re-education since many wanted to imply that all kinds of things could be done. (Thanks for the idea about the "dumb Americans" being the only ones who cannot participate at Masses in Rome and other places because of our total ignorance of Latin and chant - that might be an arguement that would go over after some positive experiences with limited chant in Lent). But when we see statements from the church that say no one, not even the priest can change the words of the liturgy and then we see our daughter being asked to "change the words" in the sung liturgical prayers, I have a major problem and she is put in a quandry. Before acting, we want to make sure that we understand correctly, that there haven't been any exceptions made somewhere, etc.
Nancy: Thanks for the ideas - they help this mom out. I'm the impatient one as I feel very uncomfortable with her leading something in error. My tendency is to just get frustrated - and probably say too much so I avoid being in positions of any authority in the church so I'm not in these dilemmas (not saying this is the right approach but for now with homeschooling and everything else, I don't have much time anyways). Your description is the approach my dd is taking - going to try and suggest a chant in Lent (Agnus Dei might be a good one since they are used to singing different strophes than Lamb of God...) My daughter tends to be very diplomatic so, yes, she plans to proceed with caution and use a lot of smiles, etc. Perhaps you know some quality hymns from an African/American angle. The priest has this background and is a convert so he probably grew up with a very different style of music. Problem is that what is being chosen for liturgy is loud and grating, not of the highest quality, and the exact same hymn is repeated for months on end and most sound like they come right out of the popular culture (very boring and grating, which discourages the serious musicians from being a part and leaves you with wonderful, and enthusiastic ameuters with varying skill levels. However, although Father has this background, there are very few African/American Catholics here - most are either like my dd or from hispanic countries.
The thing that gets me about the discouragement for Latin is its universality (and the more multi -lingual and multi heritage congregants you have, the more important the Latin becomes to draw them together - then you don't have the diversity issues. When there were several parishes trying to pull the Anglo and hispanic communities together, they had tons of trouble. Would have joint midnight Mass with alternating language in the readings and homily, etc. which is OK but then felt like they had to do the same thing with the hymns and most of the prayers were in English (or both languages which really meant the Mass went on for many extra hours - not necessarily a bad thing but hard on the children). Now, it would have been simple to use Latin for all the standard prayers with booklets printed with Spanish/English translations - your choice. Actually at the dedication of a new chapel, the powers that be were going to do the same thing - alternate between the hispanic choirs and the Anglo choirs. Instead the choirs joined together and from what I hear, this was the only time the two communities actually united - and they sang a few hispanic hymns, a few Anglo hymns and a lot of Latin hymns - all together - but using enough Latin meant that they were united with a common heritage.
And, yes, part of her discouragement here is that the Catholics are not serious even about Mass attendance and will miss Mass for a football game - though there are 3 Mass times (she plays at the one geared to the college, but the other 2 are on-campus as well and she has been asked to substitute here from time to time - same music repeated without end) and the leanings seem to be very liberal based on the hand-outs from the retreat. Yes, the choir members seem to be the most active and dedicated - and they seemed very enthusiastic about the idea of working on some chant - which is why she approached Father about it - but when he said no, she backed off realizing he does not like this style at all - probably never heard it in his life. He kind of told her who she had to work through - turns out one of the adjunct professors in music (she knows him as he heard and was very, very impressed by her audition at music camp and by her sight reading - she played a duet with him at camp. He was also surprised that she was Catholic)at the college who seemed very surprised when she was interested in this (assumption being that college students don't like this kind of music - or even that the public at large doesn't) but he could not change hymns but suggested that she submit a few that they would like to do and he would try to rotate them in occassionally - so there is a start and he suggested that they pick a communion meditation after the communion hymn (a very jazzy song). As a professional musician, I am sure he must be limited by someone on what he selects so he may be tickled to have another like minded person - we just don't know where the hymns are coming from - they don't sound like ones a professional musician would choose. Her one concern with Panis Angelicus is that with all the other selections, Panis Angelicus may sound odd - and the other fear, too, is that as a meditation there may be some fear that these musicians are trying to perform rather than lead the singing - which is not their intent. They are trying to do a really good job and hope it does aid in the reflection and prayer of the congregation - though imho the time might be better spent in silence. However, without the Panis Angelicus added, they would be playing jazzy (not high quality jazz) throughout as for some reason our churches here do not want even a second of silence.
I try to stay out of the music forray as I am not a skilled musician (it is a relief to rant here sometimes so I don't say anything inappropriate at home  and get most of my info from my dd in terms of kind of music, quality of music, etc. - basically tone deaf, cannot play any instrument and know very little. I can only speak of my preferences and what helps me lift my heart and mind to God. I try to stay on top of church legislation in different things and since my daughter asked for information gathering assistance, I thought I'd see what I could find. I never gathered more than the few things on music (when our dd began to be called on for church) from before because I had no idea anyone in our house would be responsible for church music - and here we are. Thanks for any help - and please pray for our daughter's attempt.
Janet
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 5:45pm | IP Logged
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Janet,
You have a truly wonderful daughter, I can just tell! And she's so fortunate to have you for a loving, caring mom.
I do agree with you about the universality of Latin. Certainly when I lived in Italy, it was super-helpful to know the Latin chants for Mass by heart; I just sang those words instead of trying to fake it in bad Italian. No one noticed! I'd imagine I could do the same in any Spanish or Portuguese language parish (I studied French, so I know those words!) and be just fine.
I was under the impression that the Lamb of God words could not be changed any longer, but I can't recall where I read that. Perhaps the National Association of Pastoral Musicians website has that info?
We just left a parish that used a very strange liturgical format for Sunday Mass (sign of peace before Offertory, for ex.), but our pastor was a liturgical scholar and claimed to have a basis for every change he made...we were just stuck. Now I'm having to reteach my children the proper order of Mass. I truly understand how frustrating it is to grow up loving the Universal Church and then have things changed around at the local level, regardless. On the other hand, we do owe our bishops and our pastors obedience, so I felt fairly OK about things once I'd spoken with our pastor about them. (I do feel better now, though!)
I think it would help the college-age congregation to hear why a particular piece of music has been selected, as in, "We're choosing some pieces for post-Communion meditation so that you'll become familiar with them when we use them on Holy Thursday," in the case of "Panis Angelicus," for example. College students often appreciate knowing why they're doing something...that's why they're in college, to learn useful things for their adult, future lives. That would also soothe over the stylistic differences between some of the selections and the typical music chosen.
I will ask around about African-American hymns. As you probably know, the spiritual tradition is a very important one in our national musical culture. I've been in several groups that have sung African-American spirituals as part of Mass, but it's definitely a selective thing. Not all spirituals will work in that context. Certainly it's not a musical style that correlates well to chant! However, this information helps explain why the priest is not inclined to add more traditional hymns to the liturgy (and also explains the jazzy instrumentals!).
I'm still thinking she could do a chant or very traditional piece during Advent, especially if she can sell the musical history of the piece to the professor she's working with.
If properly done, a quiet "meditation" is not a performance. Many people appreciate a little quiet prayer time after Holy Communion. (I've been in literally a dozen music groups, and I can state emphatically that the best of them see that they aren't performing at all...they're ministering in the most humble way, using God-given gifts.) Definitely any tendency toward applause should be discouraged...I'm sure you know that already! The musicians might alternate sung meditation pieces with instrumental pieces (here's where you work in a traditional, but familiar tune or two, over time...), or they might use the "explanation" method I suggested above.
Most people will appreciate that your daughter is a faithful, talented Catholic...and still a student. She is doing her very best, and she's a volunteer. (I've learned to invite critics to join the music group...but it took decades to get up that kind of nerve!) I think she's doing just fine...and is probably overjoyed to be able to talk things over with you and ask for support.
Some of your daughter's experiences are good preparation for life...especially the part about Catholics not attending Mass. I was stunned as a young DRE to discover that parents thought it was OK to drop their children off for CCD (no Mass, of course) and then go drink a cappucino at the golf course while their children learned about a faith they didn't really participate in. Grrr. It's frustrating to know that people don't put God first...but that's how it is. Very sad. Please reassure your daughter that she doesn't need to take on all that as a personal mission, or feel badly that others don't make good choices. She's doing something important with music ministry...and that is what God's asking of her right now.
I'll definitely ask musician friends about the African-American connection...we'll see what I can uncover!
Hang in there.
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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vmalott
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 5:48pm | IP Logged
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Wow, Janet...I wish I had some words of wisdom and help for your daughter. It certainly sounds like she's up against a difficult pastor musically. It makes me wonder why some priests use lame excuses for not wanting chant "But the people won't like it" or "The people aren't familiar with it" when it's usually their own tastes they are preferring. I don't remember any priest asking the people in the pews whether they liked the frequent pop-sounding garbage that's served up each week. Yes, I know some people like it, but the majority of us are either neutral or don't like it at all. ::sigh::
Perhaps the folks at Adoremus would be helpful? I know they have a whole bunch of articles and church documents regarding liturgical music:
Adoremus
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 8:47pm | IP Logged
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Janet, I still have little time, but I have printed out your post, and will read it this evening.
Just for short and quicky answers, though...here is what our "plan" is in our parish:
We will begin with the Kyrie. Simply, we will begin to chant it in the simplest form. If anyone complains that it's Latin, we can tell them that it's Greek. 
Consulting with the organist, we can give him a long list of "acceptable" music. If he wants to sing "This Little Light of Mine," he is on his own.
More thoughts...I have been educated not just by Libby who is taking an advanced music history class for the honors program at Juilliard, but from Amy Welborn's blog. We are still digesting the posts and comment both in her original post, and her follow ups. There is so much rich info here.
As for the real meaning of he GIRM, I think that we can reasonably replace the word "chant" with "hymn." Now, this is not my preference, but I think that this is the common interpretation.
I have had a chance to attend many different Masses lately, and I am pretty sure that a drum kit during Communion is not really nice  . OTOH, I heard, in Wichita, a complete orchestra and choir singing "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence" and thought is was sublime, though it included tympani. So I know the problem is not the orchestration, but the setting, for each piece.
Again, Janet, I am still ruminating, since I think our dds are in similar boats. When you "get" music and are forced to play twaddle, it's rather deflating. When you must do it for Mass, the most important moment of our week, it's positively depressing. More soon...
(And here's hoping that your dd can invent some solutions herself, and share them here!!)
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 13 2006 at 8:06pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth:
Thanks for the blog. I passed that one on to dd. I'm sure she'll come up with some ideas. So far she is "expanding their horizons" in practice and getting away with it with even the doctoral students simply because she is cute. She says they test to see if she can really get them to do stuff but then fall apart and think she is too cute and go along and do what she wants. Think they were a bit surprised that she's a freshman.
I've printed tons of stuff off the Adoremus website - they do a good job quoting church sources and keeping some balance. We have answers for the Psalm and Lamb of God question. Neither of these are allowed - We also found out about a book that has church regs - plus the notia (spelling?). I'm looking for a more current one. It answers all kinds of liturgical questions and in this day and age - especially around here, lay folks have to become liturgical experts just to be in obedience with the Universal church - and not be duped.
OOps - don't mean the Lamb of God and Psalm are not allowed - just that added strophes that are different than the approved liturgical texts are not. Ie cannot use song instead of Psalm or an unapproved translation of a Psalm to fit the music. If you need the Lamb of God to go on - and this really is not supposed to be prolonged - you simply repeat the strophes.
I agree 100% with whoever on Amy's blog made the comment that one of the problems is that ignorance of liturgy on the part of a lot of the musicians and the ignorance of music on the part of everyone else. We're trying to educate ourselves at this house on both counts.
I have an e-mail question in to Adoremus about the other. I was misreading the GIRM as I think my texts were speaking directly of the preface and Eucharistic prayer and the section of the Mass she is being asked to have "singing/music" for is during the silent preparatory prayer. So I'll have to go back and re-read that section of the GIRM. But, yes, an out of time drummer and some sort of beebop music seems to me it ought to be obviously inappropriate to anyone, especially at this part of the Mass - but guess not.
If the general idea of music is allowed, just need to work on better stuff - then that is an easier problem (still near impossible) than being asked to do what the church has asked us not to do - which is happening too.
I'd better get off before my very impatient self comes too far out of control!
Janet
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Oct 13 2006 at 8:24pm | IP Logged
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Janet, just what are they adding to "Lamb of God" in your area? Ours is pretty straight forward.
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 13 2006 at 10:03pm | IP Logged
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King of King and Lord of Lords ...
Saving Cup ...
Jesus, son of God
There's a whole list - some of them very questionable doctrinally but basically we are lucky if we get the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world..." more than once. They do end with "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world grant us peace." I knew this couldn't be correct just from my reading of the Vat. II documents of the liturgy - but someone decided to call this a form of litany that needed expanding and now the "educated leaders of music" think there is something wrong if you don't get the full effect of these litanies by drawing them out.
And while I might have Vatican II documents someone will claim there is further clarification somewhere because it is a litany or some such - so I was looking for something that was directly addressed to the Lamb of God. Anyways, while they are at expanding the "litany", they subtley eliminate the Lamb of God. There is not a single parish in our area (I mean within 2 hours drive) that does not do this. It drives me nuts - but our family has handled it by refusing to sing the addled thing and quietly reciting the Lamb of God ourselves. If the Creed or one of the feast day sequences is left out - we add it in prayer after Mass. If the Psalm that is sung is some crazy song instead of the Psalm or some unapproved translation "so we can sing it", we don't sing the response and simply read from the missallette. This all works wonderfully when you don't have to lead the singing - we are not rocking anybodies boat or being obnoxious but we are being obedient to what we know the church has asked (for those parts of the Mass that get messed with but we don't have a part in, we don't feel an obligation to do anything at all unless its really, really serious as this is Father and the Bishops responsibility)regardless of what silliness takes place - no one else but our family knows what we are doing. But it is not an option when you are leading the choir - but don't have any authority to make the calls ... now what is one to do.  .
One suggestion we came up with is to just keep singing Lamb of God for all the strophes for whatever addled tune they give her but she has to look at the music and see if it works because each one of the strophes may have their own tune so to speak. I told her about Libby's list - but since she is the pianist and there isn't anyone else there every Sunday, she cannot totally take that tack - but we thought of coming up with a list of what she cannot in conscience do (ie eliminate all docrinely suspect hymns, all added strophes, all non-approved Psalms) and suggest that they either find an alternate for her (and here are a few suggestions) or find another musician. Just being able to continue playing through the hymns is an improvement on what they had (yes, it is really bad - bad beyond anything you have probably imagined possible before). She knows she'll have to work very, very gradually on the style - from rock-n-roll, beebop/jazz to something more appropriate. Her comment on the style was it was fine for jamming at a backyard picnic.
The other problem is that they want her to play the same hymn for a month or more so it is the exact same gag stuff every single Sunday without even something new to sight read. Oh - that is the other problem. A lot of the instrumental music hasn't come in yet - though they were supposed to get it last year. Last week they only had quitar music for the Alleluiah - at least she had an excuse there to pick one that had music and most of the time she isn't getting the hymn selections until the day of or before Mass so it is definitely sight reading.
You want a real laugh - the Presbyterian church she worked at asked her to play Agnus Dei - changed their mind Sunday morning but they considered it - whereas the Catholics here think that is unacceptable except for Lent (you can bring in a tiny bit of Latin at Lent) I'm wondering if it is because that is when we focus a bit on our own sin and well it is suddenly fine with them if we don't understand what is being said. Sorry about my soap box. Please, please pray we get a bishop soon - we're still lingering with Cay on that one - haven't had a bishop since JPII died.
One tactic our dd used at one church was to play dumb. They brought her music 10 minutes before Mass and wanted her to do it. Since it was something obnoxious (really easy to play)and suspect in terms of permitted, she simply said she couldn't play it. (She couldn't for doctrinal reasons - but they assumed she couldn't because of how late they got the music to her ) I think they eventually figured it out cause she would sight read much more difficult stuff for Mass (10 minutes before Mass started). After a while though, she found out she would get no say in the music and she simply resigned - of course she was going off to college too(this was the church that she drove an hour to volunteer at) so she could do this without stepping on toes.
I really envy you and your choices!
Janet
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Oct 16 2006 at 3:51pm | IP Logged
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OK...here's what we did on Sunday. Mind you, fixing the music situation in any church is a long, long process. And one can only change a few things at a time without getting reams of complaints.
Processional: Come, Holy Ghost
Offertory: Jesus Christ, Bread of Life (music by Dvorak)
Communion #1 Lift High the Cross
Communion #2 (meditation) Ave Maria (Bach-Gounod) on violin
Recessional: Prayer of St. Francis (quite possible the worst arrangement of a bad translation EVER).
To this, we added the Kyrie in Greek (6 fold), the Gloria in English (a really bad arrangement), the Our Father sung in English, and the Agnus Dei in Latin.
Monsignor was very reluctant to add the Greek and Latin. He wants people singing familiar hymns, but he agreed to try it just once. The whole congregation burst into song. It was amazing. And people lingered after Mass. I think it was a resounding success, as musical experiments go. Now we need to convince Monsignor, who insists that the music we choose be from the hymnal, to invest in another hymnal.
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 16 2006 at 7:18pm | IP Logged
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Well, our problem is that our dd has no say in the selections - other than the communion meditation (they are working on Panis Angelicus for that one but the master's degree candidates in church music are just going along with her to be nice - and one of them is playing the piano for it so she can play the violin. The flute player seems to be very experienced so this was a plus - and may join the Panis Angelicus. I do think all the musicians, at least last week, in the choir, are serious musicians - at least 4 or 5 of the 6 there are music majors and all had complaints of some sort about the music selected. So in general they are all for improving the music - just don't have the same difficulties with things outside the rubrics. None of them have a say in what is being played - they're just playing it. The guitarist and drummers were not there and she has no idea whether they just had a busy week or whether they dropped out. Now, she is trying to get a handle on who she can count on - and what to do with the irregular shows. The music, actually seemed better - not great, mind you, more the banal stuff - but most of it they played 2 weeks ago. So I did misunderstand her about the music style - it isn't really loud without the drummer.
Our daughter got advice and it is definitely to go slowly. Her biggest problem is doing the "litany lamb of God" and songs that aren't really the approved Psalms - but since she has no direct say in what is being played, she cannot just do a different one. This is delicate as the only way to accomplish something is to approach the person responsible for selecting music - and this will be really difficult not to step on toes. Right now she is in the read and study mode so she is sure that the documents are clear so that she can explain her difficulty in doing these - maybe bringing up her "personal conscience".
She may be able to elicit suggestions from the regular choir members and submit these to the person who selects music - in the hopes that a few may be rotated in from time to time. However, she is limited to the one book they use and it is mostly Mass of Creation stuff and Marty Haugen.
Appreciate prayers as she really ponders whether/how to talk about the rubric breaking elements.
Janet
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Oct 19 2006 at 10:01am | IP Logged
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This is interesting...
Bishops to Vote on Norms for Hymns at Mass.
I am a bit concerned that the bishops, who could not figure out how to translate "mandatum" can come up with a hymn selection that will please everyone in their conference, never mind those of us in the pews. Here are some preliminary guidelines (my comments in bold):
"Individual songs should be consonant with Catholic teaching and free from doctrinal error" Um. Duh?
"The repertoire of liturgical songs in any given place should reflect a balanced approach to Catholic theological elements." 
"Liturgical songs must never be permitted to make statements about the faith which are untrue" Double Duh?
"The doctrine of the Trinity should never be compromised through the consistent replacement of masculine pronominal references to the three Divine persons "
"Any emphasis on the work of the members of the Church should always be balanced by an appreciation of the doctrine of grace and our complete dependence of the grace of God to accomplish anything"
"The elimination of archaic language should never alter the meaning and essential theological structure of a venerable liturgical song." I really like archaic language...can't we just leave it alone?
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 19 2006 at 3:38pm | IP Logged
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Oh MacBeth:
I have to laugh at your "Oh duh" comments. Unfortunately, here, it is not always understood that singing that the church is nothing but a door and windows till the people come in is doctrinally incorrect so that statement will solve nothing unless someone gets around to insisting on teaching doctrine and enforcing the teaching of it!
Our priests are very good - but they are trying to keep the extraordinary ministers from "communicating" themselves instead of waiting for the priest and are forever having to handle surprises that some lay person springs on them (like the boom box/ dance Our Father which was not done by the choir but by the youth group at a Mass for the Confirmation candidates  and I know Father knew nothing about it until he noticed the set-up in the altar area and Mass was beginning ). They must get awfully tired of saying, "Please, consult me first before you do anything at the Mass." The music is at the bottom of the "fix" list and in some ways, seeing what they are trying to fix, it really is understandable, especially since most of them don't feel the least bit qualified in music anyways. They really don't pay much attention to the music and I suspect they are busy at praying the Mass that they don't notice the stuff (wish I could be as recollected).
I liked the idea on Amy's blog of a list of hymns that are not acceptable doctrinally. Not that this would solve the disobedience issues - but it would at least make it clear that these most atrocious things are not allowed. I know our priests then would make sure the forbidden ones are not played or address it when someone ignores them and tries anyways. Our priests really are Holy men trying to be obedient to the church and often left in as much confusion as the rest of us and with a cadre of people who have been used to doing whatever they wanted and ignoring the priest. These priests were not here when the mess started but they are left with the clean-up work - and if they do too much at once, people make up stuff, whine and fuss to the bishop, etc. so they do have to be very diplomatic.
Regardless, I suspect we'll still have the free-wheeling, using what they want anyways, but it is bound to improve if things are listed so clearly that the legal gymnasts cannot deconstruct the church's intent. Of course, it will probably take 10 - 20 years for us to actually get an English translation and in the meantime the legal gymnasts interpret things very oddly.
Even with clear statements that the prayers of the Mass cannot be altered by anyone without the approval of Rome even if they are song (and it is not acceptable to change the Psalm translation (ie use another or creative translation) to fit the music or to substitute hymns that are loosely based on the Psalm for this Psalm), we still have this on a regular basis at every parish in our region. Now, we almost always have several Sundays that the Psalm is altered in some major way (or is replaced by a loosely Psalm based hymn) this is at every parish in our region that I know of - some do it more frequently than others. The one thing I've noticed is that the Psalms that discuss sin, seem to be the ones being "replaced" by other stuff. Now some of the re-placements may be the acceptable general seasonal Psalms - but how is a person to know which ones are licit replacements and which ones are not. I know for sure that at least some are not.
I really am not sure yet how our dd plans to handle the situation at college. She has been asking for some guidance from priests at EWTN - and she could use the tack that she is not responsible, at this point she is unlikely to influence anything for the good and she will bide her time. I hope she does bring up the illicit texts, but it is really her call. It is frustrating for her to be in a position where she appears to have authority - but really doesn't - and when she agreed to this she was left with the impression that she would have considerable influence on the music selections. We'll see what happens. For now she is trying to make sure people come to practice, that they play whatever well and that they have some exposure to the beautiful repertoire of Catholic hymns through the Communion Meditation (the one place she is free to choose something with approval).
Oh, I did get a response from Adoremus and it seems their interpretation (though they were honest and said that there is a great deal of confusion as to precise interpretation of some things) was that the hymn could be (and it sounded desirable that it was) extended into the offertory up until the priest's "Pray Brethren..."
Now, obviously this was intended to be a chant (not any old hymn) but this is where there are varying interpretations, I guess. In any case, I guess this means that playing a hymn until she has enough respect and clout to have input into selections, will not be in disobedience to the church.
That only leaves us with the Lamb of God issue and the Psalm issue. (Of course the kind of music is still a bit of a problem - but not the first priority for her to tackle). With the Lamb of God, I think she is going to try and repeat the appropriate words instead of all the different litanies so they will be in line. I don't think she has any say yet about the Psalms.
Janet
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folklaur
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| Posted: Oct 19 2006 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
I liked the idea on Amy's blog of a list of hymns that are not acceptable doctrinally. |
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Could you link this for me?
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vmalott
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| Posted: Oct 19 2006 at 7:30pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
Oh, I did get a response from Adoremus and it seems their interpretation <snip> was that the hymn could be (and it sounded desirable that it was) extended into the offertory up until the priest's "Pray Brethren..."
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Janet,
I've been following this thread with great interest as I think it's an issue that is on many peoples' hearts. The quote above relates to how I've been feeling about this part of the Mass for a while. I've wondered about it for a long time, really. Does this mean that it should be one hymn? What is done at our current parish, or at least to the Mass time that we attend weekly, is the congregation sings a hymn together, and then usually that ends, and then it is "solo time". Sadly, the solo is usually some very ego-centric song, telling Jesus what He should do for me, blah, blah, blah. I think whoever is in charge of the musical selections is striving for a meditative piece. sigh
One Sunday, it was long and bad, that you could even see the priest's discomfort as he stood at the altar. He had finished the preparation, the prayers, etc. and was ready to get on with the Liturgy of the Eucharist, while he waited for the soloist to finish her song.
Valerie
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 19 2006 at 9:51pm | IP Logged
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Amy Welborn's blog is linked in one of MacBeth's posts above - I'd link it again for you but don't know how.
I know from Adoremus, their sense is that this hymn really should be the offeratory chant (don't know if these are put to music but are often listed in missalettes) but musicians disagree as to whether or not this can extend to a hymn and the church seems to have allowed the hymn option as a last choice.
I know what you mean about selections - I know a loud drummer during this part just doesn't seem right and that was what they had at the college Mass. But evidently the drummer was asked to tone down a bit.
What you said about the priest's discomfort happened here as well. One of the priests prefers to speak the texts so he was waiting for the choir to finish up before proceeding. (And personally, I would prefer the spoken prayers to some addled or heretical hymn - so it is an individual pastor's call, I suppose) The first time he got away with it - the next Sunday, the choir just kept going and going so that there wasn't time to keep waiting. I really think Father's preference should have been respected - but it is an example of the kinds of things that are pulled on the priests all the time. He was transferred so I don't know what would have happened if he had stayed. He is a jewel of a priest and we miss him terribly.
Janet
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Oct 20 2006 at 9:41am | IP Logged
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Most good choir directors will WATCH the priests. That way this awkward situation won't happen. The director should end the piece as quickly as musical integrity will allow, imho.
MacBeth, you're hilarious.
I, too, prefer archaic language. I constantly make mistakes when I sing because I have memorized all the "old" verses and now we have to do the PC versions.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Oct 20 2006 at 10:56am | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
| Most good choir directors will WATCH the priests. That way this awkward situation won't happen. |
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Our organist just turned the organ in the choir loft so that his back is to the priest...yeah, he can't see what's going on  . But, hey, he says the sound is much better!
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4Real Forums : The Arts in the Everyday
Topic: Church Music
