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Willa
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I really liked this blog post about the place of "leisure" in education. I thought it was a good reminder that classical education is not about academic acceleration, or necessarily, lots of seatwork. Education is about thinking, and thinking takes down time.
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Willa
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ALmom
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Willa,
I just got to read this blog - and love it. It is so very true and how often I rush my children in my own excitement, rather than letting them take time to ponder. Just recently, my daughter and I were digging through Fides et Ratio in relation to her Biology and it seemed like difficult reading at first so I was reading it out loud to her and we were discussing. Well, my daughter just got that blank stare that says I'm lost, so we put it aside. Well today she came to me and told me how easy it was to read. She picked it up and was pondering it - and has no trouble with it now. I was in too much hurry.
I find myself sometimes so rushed - just the description of busyness. I crave quiet, but there never seems to be time because I don't make time and we all suffer because of it.
Is this the real source of burn-out rather than whether we do unit studies or workbooks, dictation or grammar lessons, classical or whatever.
I also remember being in school and the teacher talking about things in history. My mind wanted to make connections, ask questions, and spend some intense digging time to try to see how one thing fit with something else we had learned. Only there was never time, because the teacher was moving on to the next point and I'd better hurry up and scribble it down so I could study it. I never got to ask my questions until I started planning what to teach my dc - and revisited some of that history at my own pace - a pace that started with intense research gathering (like a sprint) but followed by the steady pace that allowed me to ponder.
Do different children have different paces - like distance runners? Some must pace themselves at a steady pace that they can sustain throughout until they sprint to the finish at the end and others sprint at the beginning, establish a place out front and then steady the pace to the finish. What happens when you are a mom that has to sprint in gathering the information before you can settle to that steady pondering pace and you are teaching a child that must begin with the steady pace before they can sprint. Is it possible that maybe I've been trying to force discussion too soon and it is not neglectful for me to let this child read, read, read until finally discussing things at the end when we have both had time to ponder. With a child that has your same style it would be easier to work together and discuss throughout.
These are just a few of my musings after reading the post. I wish I could print it out and frame it as a reminder. Thank you so much for posting the link as I never have figured out all this blog/computer stuff.
Janet
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lapazfarm
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That was very interesting. It is one of my goals, to try to recognize those times when less busyness and more contemplation are called for. With my ds it is pretty easy, as he lets me know in many ways. Ds is not a lazy boy, so when he comes downstairs in the morning and says he "doesn't feel well" that is a big clue for me that he needs some down-time with his thoughts. These are times to spend the day outdoors or snuggled up on the couch with cupof tea and a good book each. I think what Janet said is right on, about it being easier when mom and child are on the same contemplative wavelength. Often when ds says he needs a brain break, I am relieved, as I need one, too! However, dd and I never seem to be on the same track!LOL!
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BrendaPeter
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Thanks so much Willa.
Some of my children are quite contemplative &, as more of a "do-er", I've had to really bite my tongue & hold myself back in order to allow them to "process". At least in our house, I find we have so much more time for leisure than if the kids were in school.
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hereinantwerp
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interesting reading--
esp. the difference between "ratio" and "intellectus", the rigorous and the contemplative, and finding a balance the two. while by personality I tend more toward the contemplative side, I tend to think of "school" as the rigorous stuff, and it isn't long into the year before I become stressed and burned out by the whole thing. I like this balanced definition better!
I just wrote a blog post yesterday on building in time for transition, and processing what we learn vs. rushing and pushing through--a similar idea. I am trying to live more this way.
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Karen E.
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What a great piece! Thanks for sharing it, Willa.
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Karen E.
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Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Willa,
I've been wanting to jump in on this thread but haven't had the time. Have you read Leisure: The Basis of Culture by Jospeh Pieper? There's a review of it here. I haven't read it yet but it's on my list. . .maybe when dh and I go on a mini-vacation next month I'll take it along.
Oh and one of my favorite books along these same lines if Fr. Schall's "On the Unseriousness of Human Affairs: Teaching, Writing, Playing, Believing, Lecturing, Philosophizing, Singing, Dancing."
God bless,
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Michele Quigley
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Cay Gibson
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I have this book. Picked it up at my last retreat and it's been sitting in the mountain-high stack of books in my bedroom.
I read excerpts here and there but haven't dived into the book yet.
Like you, I've been dying to jump into this thread but just can't. I'm anxious to hear if Willa has read it and what she has to say.
I'm going to go dig my copy out now and hopefully read a bit of it tonight.
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Cay Gibson
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Leonie
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I agree - thinking takes time.
My trouble? I am a do-er by nature - so we DO. 
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Leonie in Sydney
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saintanneshs
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How about when you're a thinker (and allow yourself the time and space to get things straight in your head) but somehow expect your children to DO (accomplish/finish) all the tasks you've set out for the day without giving them the space and time to ponder? Yikes...is this why my 6yo ends up in tears when his narrations don't match up to his 5yo brother's?
Good discussion. Thanks Janet for bringing some of your points to light...your "thinking out loud" makes a lot of sense to me. I never thought of the value of leisure before. Seems like I had expected to turn my kids loose to "ponder" when they got a little older. When they have too much leisure they tend to get into trouble, so I guess balance is key, right? Last week we built a huge farm all around the livingroom. We played together all morning and then left it out for Friday morning too. On Friday they played (and used lots of skills in their play, I noticed), but after an hour I got up to work on some other things and they began fussing with each other and doing naughty things. What I would call "leisure" was over and it was time to come back to the routine.
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saintanneshs
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This thread has inspired some good discussion between dh and I today. After being away for a few hours, I wanted to come back and post that I'm not sure I could identify "warning signals" that my child isn't getting enough "leisurely learning" time... after all, I've missed this one up until now 
For example, my 6yo is definitely a "thinker" and is a very serious, very smart kid. He's not what I'd call light-hearted so I sometimes have trouble believing he IS a kid. Dh and I joke that he'll be running the farm in a few years  . This same kid, who is pretty well-behaved, also has trouble sitting still through our bible stories, especially when I don't break the plot down into pieces for him. If he knows he has to give a narration right after, he squirms even more. I'M afraid he'll forget details if I wait to get his narration BUT I'm learning that the more time he gets to digest ideas on his own, the better he seems to be able to put his thoughts into words and make connections. The best narrations are when he has a chunk of time to relax after a story and put it together in his head. The worst are when we get right up and go to the computer. He just stumbles through his sentences and gets the events all out of order (A "WARNING SIGN" that he's not being allowed time to digest, I'm thinking)...
So along those lines, could we maybe make a list of some other warning signs that KIDS need more leisurely learning time? Burnout (for me) seems to be the only thing that makes me pay attention to these kinds of details...
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Willa
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MicheleQ wrote:
I've been wanting to jump in on this thread but haven't had the time. Have you read Leisure: The Basis of Culture by Jospeh Pieper? There's a review of it here. I haven't read it yet but it's on my list. . .maybe when dh and I go on a mini-vacation next month I'll take it along.
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Michele and Cay,
I've read the book. I just love it. In fact, I'm reading it again. One point he makes in the first chapter is that there are two types of thinking. One is "ratio" -- the discursive, active type that takes hard work. The second is "intellectus" -- which is more receptive -- a responsiveness. Some modern philosophers -- he mentions Kant -- think that the "ratio" form of thinking is the only worthwhile type. You seem to see that sometimes in classical homeschooling books, where most of the curriculum is centered around hard work and effort.
He thinks this attitude springs from a modern mindset that a human is only of value insofar as he is a worker -- insofar as he is productive. So he wants to reclaim the ancient understanding that work is perhaps a condition, but not a CAUSE of virtue (or knowledge) --
Aristotle said our "ratio" -- reason was what made us human (as opposed to animals) but there was something higher, "contemplation" which made us more than human -- almost superhuman -- and this comes by definition almost without effort. It's a sort of response and receptiveness rather than an active striving.
I guess Martha and Mary also might be examples of the same sort of dichotomy.
I don't think I did justice to Pieper's book by this -- it is a REALLY good book and while I find it difficult, it's not because of his language or thinking -- he writes and thinks so clearly and carefully -- it's because of the amount of depth in the book. I really admire him -- and the book is worthwhile and very Catholic.
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Willa
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Willa
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saintanneshs wrote:
| So along those lines, could we maybe make a list of some other warning signs that KIDS need more leisurely learning time? Burnout (for me) seems to be the only thing that makes me pay attention to these kinds of details... |
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I don't know for sure.... wish I did. Burnout is a biggie, certainly. Kids may show burnout in different ways than moms do though.
Kim Fry sent me a link to a Montessori article about normalization. Here Montessori talks about the signs of non-normalization -- which she calls "deviation" or "barriers".
Quote:
Deviations Shown by the Strong and Weak
In The Absorbent Mind she talks about deviations shown by the strong, meaning those who resist and overcome the obstacles they meet, and deviations shown by the weak, meaning those who succumb to unfavorable conditions.
The Strong
Defects of the strong are capriciousness, tendencies to violence, fits of rage, insubordination and aggression. They are also disobedient and "destructive", possessive, and unable to concentrate. They have difficulty in coordinating their hands. They are generally noisy, unkind, and often greedy at the table.
The Weak
Defects of the weak are passiveness, indolence, crying, trying to get others to do things for them, wishing to be entertained, and easily bored. They find the world frightening and cling to adults. They may refuse to eat, have nightmares, fear the dark, and have psychosomatic illnesses. |
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I would imagine that some of these things could also be signs of stress in kids caused by too much "on task" or "on" time, and also could be caused by too much down time -- not enough adult involvement or challenge.
Montessori said that the remedy was WORK -- not meaning chores or academic table time, necessarily -- but things that engage the attention and effort of the child. She said punishment or permissiveness are not useful.
I agree with you -- it's a balancing act, for sure.
What I see happening sometimes in homeschoolers with very structured educational styles is that the academics are rigorous -- the children respond with the above stress patterns -- the parents respond to this by using more severe and "total" kinds of discipline. Lots of grounding and loss of privileges and disapprobation. It escalates and parents and kids become burnt out and oppositional.
This happened to me and my kids a bit when we first started homeschooling. We were using Seton and I just didn't understand how learning worked. Fortunately I came across some CM resources and some philosophical classical books like Pieper's and that helped me make a better, more balanced homeschool. But it's still much more of an art than a science. I don't think I get it completely right EVER. And if MOntessori's words apply -- you can make mistakes and have the child turn out absolutely fine, because children are quite adaptable and seem to be able to read behind the lines and see when mistakes are done lovingly and with good intentions.
I had a serious oldest child -- however, he was not really academically "on" in his early years. He took forever to complete small amounts of schoolwork -- so when he was in parochial school he had to stay in at recess and still had 2 hours of homework when he came home.  When we started homeschooling, he was cooperative and interested but not really any kind of achiever -- most of the work I did with him was redirecting his attention back to what he was supposed to be doing.
But since we were using mostly first-rate resources -- living books, minimal texts, and as much interaction and dialogue as I could manage with ongoing pregnancies and new babies -- and when he had an interest we encouraged it, etc.-- and most of all, because he had time to ponder and think.... he did well in spite of it.
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Willa
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vmalott
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WJFR wrote:
| Some modern philosophers -- he mentions Kant -- think that the "ratio" form of thinking is the only worthwhile type....Aristotle said our "ratio" -- reason was what made us human (as opposed to animals) but there was something higher, "contemplation" which made us more than human. |
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Wow...very cool. I suppose that explains why Aristotle appealed to me more than Kant in my philosophy classes! Looks like a book I will put on my "To Read" list. Thanks, Willa.
Valerie
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Nina Murphy
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I just saw this. Thanks, Willa. I really needed this.
I need to keep an eye out for the defects of the weak in two of mine, and defects of the strong in one of mine, due to lots and lots of "leisure time" around here.  I truly think we need to keep our eyes open for the stress you talked about when there is not enough "adult involvement or challenge", and not become complacent.
Prayer, prayer, and more prayer. Surrendering and commending them into the care of their Blessed Mother who attends to them perfectly. It is SO important that we reassure one another (especially those of us who have "looser" strictures) as fellow mothers and homeschoolers. For we indeed HAVE our limitations as mothers and can not expect from ourselves what is beyond our capacity without sure-fire negative consequences--- that hurt the children much more than benign "neglect".
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~~Nina
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Willa
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ALmom wrote:
I find myself sometimes so rushed - just the description of busyness. I crave quiet, but there never seems to be time because I don't make time and we all suffer because of it.
Is this the real source of burn-out rather than whether we do unit studies or workbooks, dictation or grammar lessons, classical or whatever. |
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For me, yes, Janet.
I've burned out using any or all of the above, and so I've come to take the "non burn out" promises with a large grain of salt. I know from first-hand experience that even unschooling can bring on burnout. So the burnout seems to come from the way I approach things, not simply from the method used (though I believe some methods are closer to what education is REALLY about and some are further away, and the "further-away" ones might conduce more to burnout).
I think Elizabeth wrote the most perceptive article on burn-out I ever read and I notice that a lot of her remedies are about stepping back, bringing God consciously into the picture.
I read a very good piece of advice in a homeschooling magazine years and years ago -- the mom shared that when she was stressed and burned-out she would call a retreat for herself. YEs, still do the minimum, but devote as much of the day as possible to prayer -- which in practice could only be an hour or two, perhaps.
Similarly, I try to have loopholes in our home learning plans so if a child is having a real off day or "stuck" there is a plan B.
I will also call an observation day or half-day where I don't plan much for the kids but watch them and try to be attentive to what's REALLY going on in their lives.
And sometimes a teacher's inspiration day or hour where I try for Mother Culture.
Pieper thinks our society has a mistaken view of what work is about, and tends to think that "leisure" is a break from work to restore us for more work. But leisure is something else entirely.
The Popes often say the same sort of thing-- in fact have commented that one reason child-raising has become so difficult is that we tend to be so wrapped up in "temporal cares" -- work and inessential busyness. The song Cat's in the Cradle is sort of the paradigm for this.
I just wanted to add one more thing -- there's times when I am staggering through life and it's not because I am putting too much upon myself, but because there are things going on in my life way beyond my natural strength. This seems different from "burn out" to me though burnout can easily creep in, I suppose.
This kind of hardship is just BURNING not burnout -- like the refiner's fire, I suppose.
I think of Jesus stumbling and falling while holding the cross -- I think of times that were just SO HARD no matter what I did or didn't do. That's so different. I wouldn't want to sound like I'm saying that everyone brings their own difficulties upon themselves. That's not what I'm saying at all.
And Pieper would acknowledge that the majority of people in history had no real time for leisure -- they were scraping out survival. That is one reason that the CHurch has always reserved Sunday with an injunction against "servile labor". It was a protection and respite for the poor and the laborers. And everyone knows that Adam was cursed to have to labor for his survival and that of his family.
But our day and age seems to have the sense that we are only validated by work so we WANT to work on Sunday or think we OUGHT TO... we feel "useless" if we are incapacitated and some people in our society have actually tried to encourage the elderly and chronically ill to dispose of themselves or be disposed of because they are "not productive". This is a twisting of what man is meant for -- that's one of his points. "Man is made for the Sabbath."
Or so I understand it. My understanding is incomplete on this; I grew up in a Protestant environment where the dichotomy is between "work" and "idleness" -- so, it would seem, if you are not working you are being idle. BUt Pieper would say something very different, I believe -- that busy-ness IS idleness if it is unnecessary and not balanced out by a true understanding of leisure.
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Willa
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Nina Murphy
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WJFR wrote:
I've burned out using any or all of the above, and so I've come to take the "non burn out" promises with a large grain of salt. I know from first-hand experience that even unschooling can bring on burnout. So the burnout seems to come from the way I approach things.
I will also call an observation day or half-day where I don't plan much for the kids but watch them and try to be attentive to what's REALLY going on in their lives.
I just wanted to add one more thing -- there's times when I am staggering through life and it's not because I am putting too much upon myself, but because there are things going on in my life way beyond my natural strength. This seems different from "burn out" to me though burnout can easily creep in, I suppose.
This kind of hardship is just BURNING not burnout -- like the refiner's fire, I suppose.
I think of Jesus stumbling and falling while holding the cross -- I think of times that were just SO HARD no matter what I did or didn't do. |
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This entire post word for word is inspired. It is making me shake... I wish I had your strength and instincts, Willa. I TRY....but no matter what I do, I end up burnt. God just not want me in any place but totally on the ground, low, needy at all times, looking up to Heaven. I wonder if I'll ever feel things are "OK"----?
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~~Nina
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Willa
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You are awfully sweet Nina --
but, just so you know -- it is very much easier for me to write that kind of thing, than actually live it well. But writing it helps me keep it in mind at least -- so I'm not being a hypocrite, I hope, just trying to write out what I believe so I can have some idea of my destination even when the path is all foggy.
Oh, I hate suffering as much or more than the next person -- and knowing that it's part of God's plan doesn't really help ease the suffering. It gives it meaning, though which DOES help!
Oh and to clarify what I wrote earlier-- my dear Protestant parents did not teach me that "work/idleness" dichotomy I mentioned. They were very liberal-arts oriented -- my Dad learns languages for fun, and I remember my mom going on a rabbit trail reading Icelandic sagas when I was a young teenager. They encouraged us to spend time developing talent whether or not it was "useful", and they gave me quite a lot of time for leisure.
And that blog post I originally linked to is Protestant; so I'm not trying to say that there is always a Protestant/Catholic split there. It's just that the traditional thinking on leisure came from the ancient world, was developed in Catholic thought, and is often lost nowadays to our modern philosophical thinking. .
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Willa
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ALmom
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Thanks Willa - think there were some real insights here for me to ponder. You always manage to post a thing or two that I just need to hear - and you generally phrase things so well and succinctly.
Janet
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MicheleQ
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Willa,
I'm reading Leisure The Basis of Culture now and I love it. It speaks to so many things I have understood to be true but haven't really been able to articulate.
Its also given me some food for thought on what may be an underlying reason so many of our young adults seem to be "aimless" and rejecting the idea of work as the be all end all.
I hope we can discuss these ideas more as they relate to life and education.
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Leisure, the Basis of Schooling
