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Bookswithtea
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BTH4K4/ref=sr_11_1/102- 2569427-6009747?ie=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B0WO4O/ref=pd_sim_dbs_d _4/102-2569427-6009747?ie=UTF8
I saw the Frontline special about Wal*Mart several years ago. I just saw the other documentary tonight.
Recently, in another thread, Michele mentioned that she does not shop at Wal*Mart.
Can we talk about this? I used to live in a big big city that could support many industries (at least, I thought they could). Now I live in a small town that fights to keep its dozen or so storefronts open on a small length of Main Street. Small town politics is more personal to me now. Honestly, I had no idea.
Do you vote with your feet and avoid Sam's Club and Wal*Mart? Do you try to get the things you need from small business owners on purpose, knowing that that money goes back into your community rather than to a corporate office? Do you think this is a Christian social justice issue?
And does anyone know if the problem is *all* big boxes and supermarkets, or is Wal*Mart a worse offender?
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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lapazfarm
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I try very hard not to shop at Walmart, though sometimes it is just inevitable for me in my small town.
My reason is in supporting small local business whenever possible.
Walmart is the largest retailer in the world. And the second largest corporation (after Exon/Mobile). I think they can do without my business. And I think they have some pretty shady business practices, as many large coprporations do. Just by being the largest, however, they weild so much power. And we all know what power does.
I do think this can be seen as a Christian social justice issue. Supporting those in need (small business owners struggling to make ends meet), even if it costs us a bit more in time, money, and convenience, seems like a worthy cause to me.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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8kids4me
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I don't shop at Sam's or WalMart anymore. Ever. I try to avoid big box stores where I can, and support the local economy, which is in real trouble.
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Cindy B, mama to 8 great kids, and 5 grandbabies!
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Bookswithtea
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8kids4me wrote:
I don't shop at Sam's or WalMart anymore. Ever. I try to avoid big box stores where I can, and support the local economy, which is in real trouble.
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So you feel that Wal*Mart is just part of the problem, and that Target, Costco, and other big boxes are problematic, too? Where do you go when you need to buy a laundry basket? May I ask where you get the bulk of your groceries?
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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lapazfarm
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We have a local hardware store, drug store, and general store that sell items like laundry baskets. We have a local grocer and a regional one where we get our groceries (as well as a farmers market). We try to support locally owned restarants rather than big chains (though some of the big chains are actually locally owned franchises, so it is hard to tell there).
It is more difficult. And sometimes I do give in to the cheap and easy and end up at Walmart (and usually regret it later). But overall I think it is worth it to try and support our neighbors if we can.
The one area where I consistantly fail is books. We have a wonderful local bookseller, but...Amazon is so much cheaper and the selection so much broader. I am weak when it comes to books! I do shop the local bookstore often and buy quite alot from them (enough that they know us by name when we come in) just not as much as I should.
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momwats8
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I would love to be so choosy but our income just isn't enough to do that. With 10 mouths to feed - mine and dh's included I spend roughly $200 - $250 a week at Walmart to feed us. That does include diapers, toilet paper, etc. I just cannot afford the smaller stores. I go in there and come out with half or less of what I can get at Walmart. The tight budget dictates for me.
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Mary- Wife to Mike and Mother to Austin(92), Mikey(95), R.J.(97), Benedict(98), Kolbe(00), Ignatius(02), Christian(03), Margaret(05),&4 angels in heaven
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Elizabeth
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lapazfarm wrote:
| The one area where I consistantly fail is books. We have a wonderful local bookseller, but...Amazon is so much cheaper and the selection so much broader. I am weak when it comes to books! I do shop the local bookstore often and buy quite alot from them (enough that they know us by name when we come in) just not as much as I should. |
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This is absolutely killing publishers, particularly small publishers and booksellers. Book prices are being driven up by the fact that amazon sells so cheaply. For instance, my book retails for $16.95. When it's in stock, Amazon sells it for a little over $11. I can't afford to sell it for that. It would literally cost me to do so. My publisher tells me that between Amazon and the rise in printing costs, she'll be forced to increase the cover price for the next run. So...we all think we're getting a great deal because amazon is so cheap, but amazon is also driving book prices higher.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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8kids4me
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I get my groceries either at farm markets(we have friends with a farm stand in the summer), the local food co-op, and the grocery store(one is based in Buffalo the other is based here, and is family owned). I still do some shopping at places like Target, but we do have local hardware stores, etc. for most things. I also try to get some gift things online from WAHM's.
We don't have any local bookstores anymore. They all disappeared in the mid 90's. So, I get books at Barnes and Noble.
We also eat out local, most of the time. I think the food is better, and usually cheaper.
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Christine
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This is not in defense of Walmart, but they have a big sign in our local store saying how much they have personally given to our immediate community and how much they have given to Katrina victims.
Elizabeth wrote:
This is absolutely killing publishers, particularly small publishers and booksellers. Book prices are being driven up by the fact that amazon sells so cheaply. For instance, my book retails for $16.95. When it's in stock, Amazon sells it for a little over $11. I can't afford to sell it for that. It would literally cost me to do so. My publisher tells me that between Amazon and the rise in printing costs, she'll be forced to increase the cover price for the next run. So...we all think we're getting a great deal because amazon is so cheap, but amazon is also driving book prices higher. |
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I have found that buying books from Barnes and Noble (we don't have local small bookstores, other than the Catholic one at which we shop) with the teacher discount is less than buying from Buy.com and especially Amazon.com (we have had to pay taxes and often shipping too when ordering from Seattle-based Amazon). Amazon is sometimes more expensive than our local Catholic bookstore which gives us a 10% discount.
There is something else to consider. Cities get money from businesses who locate in their area. Our city is struggling because we cannot seem to keep stores like the Gap, Old Navy, JCPenney, Nordstrom, ToysRUs, etc. These stores most likely do not do well because we have a Super Target and a Walmart (soon to be Super Walmart) and because a lot of people shop online. However, our city would be hurting even more without Target, Costco, and Walmart. They and a few others (like JoAnn Crafts and Fabrics, grocery stores, Barnes and Noble, Borders, and Michaels) are the only ones who seem to stay in and believe in our community.
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Christine
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Martha
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I agree with Christine about teacher discounts.
I rarely buy online unless it's just an awesome deal or i can't get it at Barnes and Noble. I get a 20% discount at B&B and no shipping fee. Plus, I can order in a book I've never seen before w/o having to pay for it. If it comes in and it's not what I thought, I haven't lost any money.
We shop walmart or target once a month if we must, for non-grocery items. We just can't afford to shop elsewhere for our famly size, and when we can - we do. Not so much due to social justice issues though. Frankly, the big box stores stink. The products are often inferior and the lack of customer service is just disgracefull. Although to be fair, the last issue seems to be a social problem everywhere. 
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stefoodie
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Question: what about the used booksellers on Amazon? Whenever I need to buy a book I go through booksalefinder or addall to find the lowest price because we usually get hardcovers and it would be too expensive for us to buy all of them brand new. So I shop half, alibris, abebooks and amazon for the most part -- but I'm still buying from the smaller shops aren't I? Or am I fooling myself thinking I'm actually helping them?
The only things I would buy (and have bought) brand new are the ones from Catholic homeschoolers/authors, e.g., your book, Elizabeth, Cay's Literature Alive, etc.
We don't buy from Wal-mart that much anymore, however we're only able to do this now because there are so many other choices locally, including a large family-owned international store.
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teachingmyown
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Isn't part of the issue with Walmart that they sell the morning after pill?
We don't shop there unless we absolutely can't find it elsewhere, like the water slide we bought this year or the blow up pool last year.
I do shop at Target. At least locally, they seem to care more. It is cleaner and brighter and I have some hope of finding things made somewhere other than China. The clientele at Walmart is scary around here.
I live 15-20 minutes from a grocery store and further than that from any other shopping. We are geting a Super Walmart 10 minutes away and I am so disappointed.
Elizabeth, I had never really considered that angle of the lower prices on amazon. So do they demand a lower cost from the publisher than other retailers do? I thought they could afford the low prices because they bought in such large quantities and because they don't have a storefront to pay for. When we had our store, we could get up to 45-50% off at certain publishers if we bought enough books. Our problem was that we didn't have the sales to justify the initial out of pocket cost to buy multiple copies.
Interesting thing I read about Walmart and the minimum wage increase legislation: It seems that Walmart actually pushes for this because they are so huge that it will hardly make a dent, but the mom and pop stores can't afford to pay their employees more without upping prices which just gives Walmart that much bigger of an advantage.
So how big is too big, for those of you who avoid "box stores"? Does that count Bed, Bath, and Beyond, or Borders' Books? Because we don't really have anything smaller than that.
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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MicheleQ
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We don't shop at Wal-mart for the many reasons listed here. My dh was better about it then I was until they started selling the morning after pill and then that was it for me. If I absolutely must shop at Wal-mart I will but that's rare and in general I have found I can make do with a substitute or do without.
I do shop at Target and K-mart but not frequently. The quality of merchandise and customer service is generally better than Wal-mart anyway. Most all of our local hardware places have been pushed out of business by the big places (Lowe's and Home Depot) but I do go local when I can. I buy sewing and craft things at JoAnn's, A.C. Moore and Michael's but I also use a local place when they have what I need. I also buy online.
The book thing is hard. I agree Amazon is a problem. There are almost no local bookstores anymore. We do have B & N and Borders but I usually buy online because it's easier. I do try to use Catholic booksellers.
It can be difficult but I think we all just have to do what we can and not feel guilty when our only option (as it is for many people) is the big stores.
Elizabeth, do you have to sell to Amazon? I wouldn't it it could be avoided. It may bring you more customers but is it worth it in the end? Being a Catholic business myself I know how hard it can be. This is also why we don't wholesale (with the exception of the Jan. - Dec. planner being available in some small catholic bookstores). Profit margins aren't that big and when you have to wholesale you find it harder to stay in business. This isn't true with everyone I know but for small Catholic businesses like myself, CHC, Our Father's House and others, it is the case.
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Sarah
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I'm curious about the USED booksellers on Amazon, too. I never thought about it, but maybe that just keeps them in business since they have their hand in the transaction.
I didn't realize Amazon was such a problem.
We have a local grocery store that has been here forever, that still uses price tgs and rings everything individually, but doesn't have disgusting magazines at the counter nor sell BC.
Can't you pretty much lump Walmart, Target, K-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, Barnes and Noble, Joanne, and all big corporations together?
We have mom & pop fabric stores and we have a local bookstore. Going to Joanne or Barnes and Noble would hurt them and still give the money to the big corporations. (I do go to Joanne and B&N, but I'm wondering if its not the same as Walmart).
This is such a hard issue when finances are tight.
Here in our city, we are at a record high for the number of houses on the market. Ours happens to be one of them. So, paying two house payments, electrical bills, taxes, etc. makes it such that a family starts to penny pinch, thus before you know it you're walking through Wal-mart feeling like a loser. And the cycle continues. . .
With every tree that's felled and field graded I cringe out here as I see farmers selling out to Super-Target, Lowes, Home Depot, and hundreds of new homes while many sit empty (For Sale) in the city.
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Cay Gibson
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Another tidbit, most beginning authors are paid on the actual receipts for all copies (of their book) sold. When sold to Amazon, you can only imagine what the receipts talley. Not much at all.
It's kind of like getting paid the % on the net versus the gross.
So, needless to say, an author (who did all the work) won't get paid much at all on books sold through Amazon.
And I speak as a recovering Amazon.com junkie who is weaning herself.  Now I try to only use it in placing all my intended selections on the wishlist provided there.
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Cay Gibson
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Genevieve
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Would the same arguement against Amazon be applied to discount homeschool catalogs like Rainbow Resource and All Catholic Books?
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Elizabeth
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MicheleQ wrote:
Elizabeth, do you have to sell to Amazon? I wouldn't it it could be avoided. It may bring you more customers but is it worth it in the end? Being a Catholic business myself I know how hard it can be. This is also why we don't wholesale (with the exception of the Jan. - Dec. planner being available in some small catholic bookstores). Profit margins aren't that big and when you have to wholesale you find it harder to stay in business. This isn't true with everyone I know but for small Catholic businesses like myself, CHC, Our Father's House and others, it is the case.
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I don't sell to amazon; my publisher does. I can't afford to wholesale to anyone because I have to buy the books at wholesale to sell them. What I do do is sell the book on amazon myself. That is, I noticed that amazon rarely has it in stock. So, I signed up to sell it on amazon marketplace. That way, if someone goes to amazon and they are out of stock, they have a buying option. And I can autograph it. Amazon can't.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Martha
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okay .. educate me, please.
I don't understand how a 3rd party could make more off the book than the originator(s)? Why is Amazon able to sell for LESS than the publisher they get the books from? Wouldn't the publisher have to give them a lower price to make that happen??
I'm being simple here?
Let's say I write a book and kinkos prints it for me.
John Q buys the book. John Q can't make a profit unless he sells it for more than what I charged him.
So, if John Q is Amazon - are they selling it at a loss or being cut a deal on the side?
Do you not get a cut of the profits from books the publisher sells?
I'm confused!
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MicheleQ
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Martha wrote:
okay .. educate me, please.
I don't understand how a 3rd party could make more off the book than the originator(s)? Why is Amazon able to sell for LESS than the publisher they get the books from? Wouldn't the publisher have to give them a lower price to make that happen??
I'm being simple here?
Let's say I write a book and kinkos prints it for me.
John Q buys the book. John Q can't make a profit unless he sells it for more than what I charged him.
So, if John Q is Amazon - are they selling it at a loss or being cut a deal on the side?
Do you not get a cut of the profits from books the publisher sells?
I'm confused! |
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Say a book retails for $20 and Amazon buys it wholesale for $10 and they sell it for $12. True they haven't made a big profit but they work off of volume. Smaller booksellers can't afford to do that (and they won't get the wholesale deal that Amazon does anyway) so they have to sell it at a higher price. Most people will choose the cheapest price.
Genrally speaking unless you write a bestseller there's not a huge amount of money in books. There are exceptions of course and if you are both the writer, publisher and the retailer (as I am) you get the most for your efforts. it's more work but better profit as well.
Make sense?
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Bookswithtea
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Well, I didn't know about the morning after pill issue.  Does anyone know if Target sells this as well?
After reading everyone's thoughts, I am wondering if this is more than just a personal decision, but also a community decision. When I lived in a big suburb, there were almost no Mom and Pop stores. It just wasn't an issue. My small town has options for many items that I normally go to a big box to purchase. Considering it takes me nearly an hour to get to the city, along with the cost of gas, shopping locally might make sense for me not just from an ethical but also a financial position. I just never really thought it about it until now.
You know what else I wonder about is supermarkets? It occurred to me recently that the "super" in supermarket may well be a newer innovation as well, like a "super K" or a "super Wal*Mart". But there are so few Mom and Pop grocery stores anymore...is it even reasonable to try to shop somewhere else? I have a coop option locally, but its not a working coop...there is a 10% handling charge on any order I place and honestly, it makes a huge difference. I just can't afford to shop regularly with them. Farmer's markets are seasonal. My local market doesn't carry everything I would normally buy and is more expensive than the supermarket, but the super is 20 minutes away and the local market is about 5 minutes away.
I don't have any fabric/craft store options that are not chain stores.
This is all so disturbing...on the one hand, I want to do what is right for our country and pay a fair price so that workers can get a fair wage. I'm willing to do without some items if it means shopping ethically. On the other hand, I can't be doing research every time I need to buy a toothbrush to find out where it was made. I just don't have the time for that.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Wal*Mart and the ethics of shopping
