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Tina P.
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We just spent several thousand dollars on a dog fence, the underground kind that zaps the dogs when they try to leave the yard. Then my dog, a German Shepherd, developed sores where his zapping collar is, so we removed it for a few days until that healed. He just wiggled out the door today when my kids were coming in and chased a juicy little morsel of a dog who was attached to a mean, old lady for a little fun and she was yelling at me (with my seven kids out on the porch to witness) to "get down here and get your dog!" Like I'm some kind of dog myself. I didn't like her tone of voice. She could've been a little more friendly.
She says she's going to call the pound and have him taken away. He didn't bite her. Didn't even get near her. And I must confess,  I wasn't the most civil toward her after she made that claim.  I'm upset about this because Animal Control called us once before about him. When people get close to our property, especially people with dogs, he gets territorial and charges at them. He never hurt anyone. I feel very defensive about my dog. How would you feel if a German Shepherd you didn't know charged you? But in the same, I know he wouldn't hurt a flea. I don't want the city to take him away. 
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Christine
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My experience with extended family's female German shepherds are that they are wonderful dogs. They are extremely protective of children (my parents' dog saved my brother from drowning when he was a toddler). If not trained, they run to people when they see them, licking them and jumping up on them (they do not charge). They do act like they will eat a small dog. Perhaps, this is because they are very adept at catching rats. This being said my sister has two very tiny dogs and in watching the German Shepherd with them, I felt that this acting like they would eat a small dog might simply be a playful thing. The dog never hurt one of my sister's dogs. Good luck! I will pray! Hopefully, animal control will have the sense to know what a great dog you have and that this lady was not responding rationally.
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Martha
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okay.. advice you may not like...
I love animals. Really. I literally grew up in a zoo with an elephant trainer for a father.
Train your dog to behave or you are asking for trouble.
I'm sure your dog is a sweetie pie. But the problem is that no one else knows that. And even people who like animals so very much... well I don't assume that when I see any animal comming at my kid.
Even if your dog has the best of friendship in mind, the person he is approaching doesn't know that and may react in a way that causes worse behavior or more serious problems. ANY animal, bar none, will hurt another if provoked and most people may not even know they are provoking him. At the least, a big dog like that could do some serious damage to a little old lady if he jumped on her or tripped her. Opening you up to a lawsuit and a doggie funeral.
Pay whatever you have to for training. Suffer whatever fencing and gadgets you have to. Or love him enough to give him to a home where his problems won't be such a problem. It'll be a huge favor to your dog. I'd hate to see him suffer a bad end for his good intentions.
Please no tomotoe throwing! Really, my thought on this are based on years with animals and seeing bad ends due to misunderstandings with people. 
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Dawnie
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Tina P. wrote:
| How would you feel if a German Shepherd you didn't know charged you? But in the same, I know he wouldn't hurt a flea. I don't want the city to take him away. |
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Tina,
I know that you know that your dog wouldn't hurt a flea, but the problem is that the people walking by your house don't know that.
About 2 years ago, my dh was attacked by 2 dogs as he was walking out to his car one morning. He didn't do anything to provoke them, they just saw him and attacked him. They backed him up against our backyard fence, at which point he called 911 on his cell phone for help. It was everything my dh could do to keep the dogs from pulling him down. When the police arrived, the dogs charged one of the officers, the officer drew his gun and killed one of the dogs while the other ran away. It was about 7am, and I woke up to the sound of a gunshot in my front yard. I was never afraid of strange dogs before this incident, but I am very jumpy around dogs I don't know now. My kids are also terrified of big dogs because of this incident. They are afraid that they'll be attacked, like their daddy was. So now, if I see a big dog running around loose, I call Animal Control, simply b/c I don't know if the dog is dangerous or not. I have 3 small dc, and if we are out on a walk, I know that I wouldn't be able to defend all of us against a vicious dog. From my point of view, with my experiences with dogs, yes, I would be terrified if a German Shepherd charged me. Maybe the old lady your dog charged had a similar experience? And, fwiw, I doubt the city will take your dog away if he hasn't actually hurt anyone. It depends on your local laws, but in our city, the dog has to bite twice before it will be taken away. The surviving dog that attacked my dh was not taken away by the city--his owner was issued a fine for letting her dog run loose. You might want to check into your local ordinances on animal control.
Dawn
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lapazfarm
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I am sort of in the same boat. We live out in the country where dogs just run loose and that's the way it is. I have a big Golden retriever and a Yellow lab. Neither one would hurt a fly, but the lab, as she gets older, is getting very territorial. She barks and raises her hackles scaring the heck out of joggers and the like. I am not sure what to do. She is older and losing her sight and I don't think very trainable at this point (set in her ways). And fencing is not an option as we rent. I thought of a pen, but that seems like cruelty for a dog who has run free her entire life.
So, I totally feel for you. I don't know what I will do, but I know it is my responsibility to the dog and passersby to do something.
(And my daughter was bitten by my brother's German shepherd, btw, so I would freak if one came running up to my kids)
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ALmom
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Our German Shepherd is a lot like the one described in the above thread. We considered an underground fence as you described and decided against it because of the fact that it will keep our dog in - but not other dogs out. I don't want our dog getting in trouble doing what comes natural to her breed - defending her territory and she is well socialized with people and dogs - barks and wags her tail, comes running to play. Other dogs seem to react to this as if threatened. A barking Shepherd is not a threat - it's the silent one on the alert that I'd be more aware of - but that is because I'm more familiar with the unique language of Shepherds. Other people and other breeds of dog sometimes have difficulty with the Shepherds cues. If they respond and bite at our Shepherd, she will defend herself (any dog would)and if I don't see it and give a command to stop her reaction quickly - it will be my dog that ends up getting in trouble because of the reputation of the breed and the probability that her jaw strength means someone else's dog will have the worse injuries. I have to account for these factors.
I don't know if other dogs react this way sometimes, because it is a reaction to their owners fear - but suspect so as I have also dog sat for months at a time for 2 Shelties and the 2 Shelties and my dog played together just fine. Someone might have thought they were fighting - as they would get in each other's faces, chase each other, bark, etc. Our dog never so much as growled - she seemed to sense the other dogs comfort zone and tried to stay in it. Occassionally the Sheltie would get antsy and give a signal - barr teeth. I have seen our Shepherd actually back up and sit down at the slightest indication from these dogs that they had had enough of her in their face. She is not aggressive. Still, our neighbors, my fil and others are scared to death of her - even though they've seen her just lay there while our dc lay on her like a pillow. We can put food (even her favorite treat) on her paw and tell her to leave it and she will for as long as we ask - even if we exit the room. I know she is trained, intelligent and the best dog ever! She'll get up and move to her kennel if she wants to be left alone. She would not hurt anyone that wasn't hurting us - and has played with my boys and other dc in war games where they were all wrestling, etc. and did not react like someone was hurting my boys - she is smart enough to know the difference. (Of course we supervise these rowdy games more closely and I prefer to have our dog inside when it gets very, very exuberant - but when it has gotten that way before I have noticed - she doesn't react in any way aggressively.
Still, I have also seen other dogs react to her playfulness as if they are threatened. A dog is still a dog and things can get out of hand rather quickly if you are dealing with a wimpy but frightened other dog.
Our neighbor has 3 medium size dogs. One of these is an annoyance because it is always getting free and it is fearful/aggressive with other dogs and wanders in our yard just to annoy Nicky whenever Nicky is either inside or on leash. A fearful/aggressive dog might do things like taunt the Shepherd, come in and taunt it or react to playfulness by coming in and biting our dog. That would be bad news!
The owner of these dogs told me she was scared of Shepherds. I've seen her react to our dog in fear. I have to be sensitive to that and respect that it would be intimidating for her to have our Shepherd run up to her (with or without her dogs) even if our dog was restrained by an underground fence. It is psychologically frightening not to have a visible barrier for someone who is scared of the dog. My fil was so frightened of our Shepherd that he wouldn't even go in the same room with her when she was kenneled. When they came to visit, we took her to my sis's farm to play with my sis's dogs so that we could accomodate the needs of both. My fil probably saw Shepherds in WWII in a much different context. Yes, these fears are unreasonable - but they are real. As a dog owner, I do feel responsible for making certain accomodations for others fright. A real fence or having my dog trained not to run and bark at the borders in usual circumstances is reasonable. And if your dog ran at another dog - even though he stopped at the invisible fence - there is a risk of the other dog reacting in fear, and attacking your dog. I've seen this happen.
Someone walking a small dog that is unfamiliar with Shepherds could easily mistake playfulness with aggressiveness in a Shepherd and a lot of people with smaller dogs are just plain scared of Shepherds - I see this over and over. The barking is loud when they are playing or alerting you that someone is here - but they don't generally bark continually as a yappy, little dog would, they are big with known powerful jaws, most people have seen them in police work or other work - so you can try to see this lady's reaction as a fear reaction. She was frightened so her tone to you was more unkind, probably - especially if her personality tends to be a bit on the blunt side anyways. Perhaps she could get to know your dog in a controlled setting. We have had neighbor dc who are frightened of our dog come in and feed her while she is calm and in her kennel. That way, they are less intimidated and our dog is able to sniff them without threatening them and more likely to ignore them when they come out to play in their yard. We had an experience where our Shepherd slipped out once and saw a young man walking his tiny dog - our Shepherd ran at the man and his first instinct was to scoop up his little dog. Obviously he felt that our dog was after his dog to hurt it. He yelled at her to sit (and she did). THis might not have been the first reaction of someone else -less familiar with dogs. Often owners of little dogs, really don't know how to train etc. as they don't have to worry about the dog with other people it is simply their spoiled pet so they may be as unfamiliar with dogs as someone who has never owned a dog or been around them. Now, it was an accident that our dog was out and was the only time our dog has been not under our immediate control - but we were in the wrong as our dog was, in fact, loose. We needed to apologize to the man, let him know that we were sorry and that it was a one time accident and then take measures to see that we do our best not to let it happen again. I would have felt badly if the man had been ugly to us or yelled at us or something - but in that situation, I think the best reaction on my part would be to assume the poor person was scared to death and apologize.
Give the elderly lady some time to calm down from her fright and then see if you can explain the unique circumstances and come to and reassure her that it was a fluke that the dog got out and how sorry you are that your dog frightened her so. Let her know your dog is not aggressive that it is just the nature of shepherds to run at to play and see if she would be willing to meet your dog (without hers at first). I doubt you would want to mingle the dogs as she is likely to continue to react to playfulness as aggression (fear is more emotional sometimes and not necessarily reasonable) - a nervousness, but at least she might be less likely to call animal control on you.
The lady with the annoying dogs has given me her phone # and as she is attempting to keep some control, I do call her whenever I see her dog out wandering. She has explained to me the trouble she has with this dog that her son has left with her until he gets back from school. She tries to walk them 3 times a day - but this is a very high energy dog that is used to a lot of space. I would think people would still be willing to try to work things out neighbor to neighbor. (But maybe that is a trait unique to our part of the country).
It is hard to remember how frightened other people are of our dogs when we know that they are friendly. Protection is part of the make-up of the breed and I am reassured to know that someone will think twice about breaking into our house. We also get less door to door salesman too because of the Shepherd  . But I have to remember that elderly folks, children and others may be very, very frightened of her and not always react in the most reasonable way. To protect my dog, I must take this into account.
I hope that things work out for you and that the other person was just frightened and be happy to mend bridges.
Janet
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saintanneshs
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Dear Tina,
I'm sorry that the little old lady didn't speak very nicely to you and that she couldn't have understood that it was a one time thing (an accident) that your dog got out. Unfortunately, I don't tend to speak very kindly either when I've just had the stuffins scared out of me, so I can't say I'd have handled it any better. I know you're upset by her response (I don't see HOW she could have your dog taken away...it's not like you weren't right there to handle it!) But, I see her side too. When you're terrified, it's easy to lump one little accident of a dog slipping out and not hurting anybody, with all the dog-roaming tragedies of this world.
Hang in there. It wasn't your fault. Maybe explain to the kids what COULD happen to the dog if the kids aren't more careful when they come in and out. With their help it will hopefully never happen again (at least not to the same old lady and her pint-sized pooch!)
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Alcat
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Hey Tina,
My father heads Animal Control in our county here in NC. The NC law is that unless the animal (dog) mouthed/bit a person (perhaps also another animal) they cannot take the offending dog to the pound.
I too have a GS now and our last dog was too. They are wonderful but if not properly trained, they scare people. Unfortunately, if a GS isn't properly trained to obey you, you are asking for trouble (mine have obeyed my dh but not me  so, I have always had to keep my shepherds put up when people come over and be VERY careful of opening doors.
I'm sorry about the old lady's reaction, but... most folks would be upset and many wouldn't be nice about it We now have a chain link fence that is very high and okay landscape around it, praise God our shepherd doesn't jump it like our last one did  In my opinion you will continue to have complaints from folks if your dog is allowed in the front yard where people are walking close. If You can you might want to adjust the invisible fence to the backyard only.
For those folks renting you can get inexpensive hogwire fencing that is real easy to put up and take down when you move; we have done it at previous houses we rent.
Just my .02
Alison
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Tina P.
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| Posted: Aug 02 2006 at 5:38pm | IP Logged
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Update:
My shepherd *didn't* actually charge the lady. He was so excited to have gotten out of the yard unscathed that he didn't even get near her. He crossed the street to visit the neighbors (none of whom were outside at the time). My kids told me this. I was actually running up from the basement as soon as I heard the kids call him.
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Tina P.
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| Posted: Aug 02 2006 at 6:03pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| doing what comes natural to her breed - defending her territory |
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GS dogs *are* territorial, aren't they? I just posted that he didn't even approach the lady. My kids saw what I did not (I started running up the steps from the basement when I hard the kids call him, so I didn't get to see the beginning of the whole drama).
ALmom wrote:
| there is a risk of the other dog reacting in fear, and attacking your dog. I've seen this happen. |
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And our dog can't get out of the yard but the attacking dog can come in and out? Ooooh, hadn't thought of that.  We're home whenever our dogs are out. So in the event of an attack, I'd come out swinging a baseball bat. Are you recommending that we ditch the electric fence and go for a privacy fence? However, it was the front door from which he escaped, which is why I liked the electric fence in the front yard as well. 
I don't remember whether in my first post I told you the reason he didn't have his dogwatch collar on his neck. He had developed sores from it (perhaps it was too tight?). We took it off for a few days ~ because he was slowed down well within the boundaries of his space and we thought we were safe ~ so that the area where the metal nodes made contact with his neck had time to heal. Apparently, we let our guard down for too long.
ALmom wrote:
| Often owners of little dogs, really don't know how to train etc. as they don't have to worry about the dog with other people it is simply their spoiled pet so they may be as unfamiliar with dogs as someone who has never owned a dog or been around them. |
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But they do need to train those little nippers. Small dogs are the world's worst biters. We have a friend whose face is permanently scarred by a little puffball of a dog.
ALmom wrote:
| We also get less door to door salesman too because of the Shepherd . |
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I wish Chestnut (or the Mary statue in our front garden ) would deter Mormon *friends* at the door). Sorry, I'm not feeling very charitable toward anyone today. I just want people to leave me alone so I can unpack the house!
Thank you all for being so supportive and also for speaking your minds, even if you knew it was not what I wanted to hear. I so much appreciate the balanced viewpoints I'm getting.
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Martha
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>>>>.But they do need to train those little nippers. Small dogs are the world's worst biters. We have a friend whose face is permanently scarred by a little puffball of a dog.<<<<
I completely agree! small dogs are nortorious biters, esp. of children. they are more intimidated and annoyed by those quick, loud little ones.
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Cici
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Tina
We have a German Shorthaired Pointer and an underground "radio" fence as well. She, too, gets sores if she wears it too much. Our dog is still 1 year old and is VERY hyper - loves to run, chase, bark, etc. So, when outside, she runs, chases (along the invisible fence line) cars, kids (wanting to play), and bicyclists. She barks too.
1) We are working on training her to not run/chase/bark after anyone - even along the fence as others don't know she is "harmless". As the above behavior is NOT acceptable. I know your dog was just running across the street to your neighbors house, but really, the lady didn't know that. I'm afraid of any dog that leaves its yard when I walk by.
2) I take the collar off at night. She comes in for the night the collar comes off (it sits on my nightstand at night). In the morning, first thing, the collar goes back on. Her neck has a healthy dose of "free time" with no collar, and I don't run the risk of her escaping without the collar. If the neck looks too pink for my taste, I spray on a little hydrocordizone (sp) before bed. This has really worked for us.
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stacykay
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Tina,
I agree with all that advocate the training. I know it is costly, and for that reason, I feel guilty saying to do it when we haven't!
We have a part black lab/part ?. He is a very gentle dog, but he is black, and those white teeth (thanks to waaay too many doggy bones from his little masters,) make him scary looking  if he comes running at you.
I think HE thinks he is one of us. IF he gets out, he tends to "take himself on a walk." He goes our regular route, walking along the sidewalk like he belongs there. He also favors our neighbors deck (they love him, and have sort of encouraged this) for sunning and napping.
We have a few neighbors who have the invisible fence, but they have had problems with their dogs staying in. A couple have charged rabbits or squirrels, and gotten the zap, but kept going until their fun was over. But then, they couldn't/wouldn't go back, because they'd get zapped going back to their own yard. Kind of tricky.
Our neighborhood is filled with dogs. The boxer on the corner barked and alerted his owner that someone was breaking into the house across the street (and the police were able to catch him in the house "red-handed.") Our dog, Charles, prevented a very persistant and imho, questionable door-to-door salesperson from entering our home. For once, I was glad he was scary. So, for the most part, we have a dog-friendly neighborhood. No shepards in the bunch,though.
I would be nervous if I saw a boxer that looks like the one on the corner come at me. He, however, is very gentle, but we know him. And at that, I am very cautious with our little ones with any dog, including our own. One never knows when something might happen.
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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Tina P.
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My dog *is* trained. Most of the time. He loses his brain when animals run past. Also the fact that we've moved every three years or even more (in the past case, three months) means his yard parameters change often. We have stepped up the zapping power on his collar (which I don't like) and we're keeping him in the back yard from now on unless I take him for a walk. I understand it'll be a challenge to take him for a walk now, even without the zapping collar on since he has to cross that invisible line.
Gotta go. My little one is awake. Thanks for all youru advice!
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ALmom
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Tina: I know what you mean about your Shepherd - is it a breed thing? Our Shepherd tends to lose her brain around other dogs too despite being very well trained and socialized with people and animals from early on - is very friendly with them but they don't always know it. I really hope we didn't make you think we thought your dog was untrained. Every dog has slipped from time to time as long as it isn't a consistent pattern. I know you wish your neighbor understood that it was a freakish thing, but I'm sure she was very frightened. I hope the fence works well for you. Does it come with a money back guarantee - the ones here do so that if it doesn't work, you are not out all that money. I just hesitate to use that kind of fence - but some of that is knowing our own Shepherd. The breeder used a lot of things to desensitize her to touch and noise (knowing she was coming into a very busy household with violins, cellos, pianos and toddlers)so I suspect our dog wouldn't even be fazed by it. If it works for you, then that is great. I prefer privacy fences - but we had to settle on chain link at one house (and make sure we were always outside with our dog so that neighbors didn't tease her through the fence). One dd has been able to really get our dog to react less to dogs using a leash. We intentionally walk her by houses with dogs to work on this very thing. She gets excited but then gets the leash pop and realizes that she has to walk with us - not get side-tracked. Distraction followed by reward for not reacting to the other dog also help! It has helped but we are extra alert when other dogs are around. She can ignore people quite readily - bicycles, strollers, children, etc. Squirrels and birds don't get to stay put in our yard very often and she goes nuts if she thinks the toddler is outside without her - as if he is Nicky's sole charge. We have a screened in porch so she can see the dc, if I am not yet able to get out with her and none of the dc that are able to handle her are around. When we moved, I also found that Nicky had to adjust to what exactly her territory was - and we took her on walks to explore the area. However, when the dc are out, she is so loyal, she doesn't even want to leave our yard - she shadows us.
I know she protected our dd on a walk. Somone came towards her - maybe it was to ask an innocent question, but our dd felt a bit uncomfortable. Nicky, stood straight up, ears up and alert and did not take her eyes off the person - no barking. The person just turned and walked away. I know Nicky would have behaved herself if the person came forward and asked a question - but I'm sure she would have defended our dd at the risk of her own life if anyone had tried to cause her harm. The only other time I knew something was up was twice. Once when Nicky ran downstairs- quietly with a low growl - never a bark. She would not leave us alone until we checked every door and every child. It turns out that the screen door wasn't latched and the wind blew it open and closed. Nicky heard this and was ready to protect us. The other time was when she barked loudly to get our attention, then would give a low growl and stayed on the alert by a window all night. We thought she was acting a bit nutty - until we found out that somebody had been in the woods behind us and had knocked out the street light. I've learned to pay attention to Nicky - but her reaction in these situations was so totally different than any other times that she has run or barked in excitement. I know the difference in signals (and as a Shepherd owner, I bet you do too) but it still is threatening to somone else, especially just because it is a big dog, a Shepherd and just has that look about it. Most other dogs do a lot of barking - Shepherds bark to play most of the time and occassionally to alert me. If she is threatened she gets very quiet alert and may have a low growl - but she has never done that to people or animals. I have seen people do stupid things just because they are afraid. We take our dog to the ball park (off hours when no games or practices are going on) because there is a huge, fenced field that Nicky can run in while we play kickball. We do have a leash on her and only let her run in the fence if no one is around (just in case). Well this one time, there were these guys and I could tell they were frightened of her. Yet they climbed the fence and sat just on top of it, while trying to provoke our dog. She was barking (not really threatening but telling us they were there). Still I knew instinctively what they were trying to do and it wasn't fair to our dog. We simply kept her distracted until they got bored and went away. She was on leash and ran the bases with my dh. It was hard for me not to get really, really angry with these people. At some point their posturing may have been misinterpreted by someone and I do not want our dog learning aggressiveness because of their stupidity. I had to handle the situation. If they had not lost interest and persisted, we may simply have had to leave with all our dc. i really didn't want to leave the park while they were there. After they left, we rewarded Nicky with some off leash time in the fence under our supervision because I really was so proud of her.
Still Shepherds mouths are big and powerful and I know a lot of folks back up just at the sight of her. I hope that things work out for you, especially with the neighbors walking by and complaining. After all the dog has to be able to play in her own yard, but I can see where people would get scared.
I also know that little dogs need to be trained too. I just see it as something a lot of people avoid simply because the dog is small, people are generally not frightened of them, and it is easier to keep them tucked away when company comes without depriving them of exercise. I know they bite - and they tend to be especially jumpy and snappy with children (at least the small dogs we have seen) - but when they get out and wander the neighborhood, people aren't as jumpy and don't generally go calling the pound.
Anyways - I am a Shepherd fan and hope all is well with yours.
Janet
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Tina P.
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| Posted: Aug 04 2006 at 8:45am | IP Logged
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Well, Animal Control called. She had called me once before when we lived in the last house which we rented because *just once* the paper boy pedaled by when Chestnut was out and Chestnut went to greet him. This lady walking her dog was the "second offense" (not that he bit anyone, just that he scared the Dickens out of them). That's why I was concerned that maybe they would take him to the pound. Anyway, when she called I explained that we took off his zap collar to let the sores on his neck heal and that he got out of the front door while the kids were either coming in or going out. Also, the lady who called about him incredibly embellished the story, saying that I (if you remember, I was running up from the basement having heard a commotion) was just standing on the porch calling my dog ~ those were my kids ~ and he wasn't listening, he kept coming at her. My kids tell me that he was never even NEAR her. He ran across the street to the neighbor's yard and she was coming past our house! They were moving in opposite directions! How can people lie like that?
The lady at Animal Control knows us since we obtained a license from her last week (and she was the one who called on the last incident). She called, we talked, I told her what happened as far as I knew. Everything's OK. We just have to keep the collar on him.
We have a black labrador puppy as well as Chestnut. If anyone would see them play together, they would KNOW what a sweet dog he is. He puts up with a lot of nipping and chasing. He has never once hurt her, though he mouths her in play. Now we have *another* dog to train. 
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Reality Check
