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JennGM
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In the thread CHC Warning I wanted to discuss Copyright Issues. I'll paste the original text:
JennGM wrote:
wanted to revisit this...not the shrink-wrap, but what CHC says warrants the shrink-wrap: abuse of copyright.
Understanding Copyright laws is a problem that many "orthodox" Catholics don't seem to grasp. Perhaps our mission should be to show others that we are not above the law. Even if we can't afford to purchase something can never warrant copying tapes, cds, DVDs, VHS, workbook pages, or any type of book to share with others.
Within our own family's use, we can copy some pages or tapes. Say I buy a cd, but I want to listen with a tape player. Since it's for my own personal use, that's fine. But copying it so someone else can hear is against copyright laws. It's never right. Not only are you breaking laws, but you are taking money away from someone who has spent time and effort and finances to produce something...and perhaps losing an opportunity for others to share in that resource because they can't afford to stay open.
Maybe we should have discussions to talk about what is and isn't allowed. Curriculum, syllabi, have certain laws. Sheet music and recorded music have their own laws, too. And how as Catholics we are never above the law... |
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threesilosfarm wrote:
What an eye opening post, Jenn. I hope to see this discussed. The water can get pretty murkey with this topic. I for one would love clarification so I may be an honest Catholic and good example to my children when using my resources. We have a VERY limited income with which to raise our brood, so how we can be resourceful and honest?
For example is it okay to copy a MODG syllabus so I may mark it up as I please for each child? I thought this was an easy answer. I'm not giving it away / selling it but I shouldn't have to buy the entire thing again, right? Can I copy a Latin workbook for my other children to use?
I would never think to buy something, copy it then expect my money back. But if I buy a workbook for one child it's not ok to copy it? |
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As I'm only begining in the homeschooling world, I'm not too familiar with particular policies. Maybe others can come forward and share what they know as existing laws. And how can we counsel our hsing friends to not abuse policies?
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shartlesville
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Hey, I was researching copyright info for something I am working on and I came across this: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ21.pdf. It is a PDF file.
On pages 7 and 8 it lists what is considered "fair use" for teachers and librarians.
I also found a very helpful chart that explains when items enter the public domain at When works pass into the public domain
Blessings,
Krisann
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Molly Smith
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This interests me, too. I'm very much a stickler for giving credit (and money) where it is due. But this thread has brought to mind a possible sticky area for me.
On the CHC Tour the Continents thread, we've discussed the Dover coloring books. I bought a dozen or more to be used by my kiddos and my plan is that when we get to Arctic and Antarctic Life, for example, that the children will go through the book, pick the pages they like and rip them out. However, if two picked the same page I would just copy it for the other child. I'll admit this one slipped right past me--it never occurred to me that I might be infringing on copywright law.
The books are not expensive, but I'm not going to buy 3 copies of each so each child will have their own. I can just not offer the option of copying the page, and tell them they have to each choose something different--which may be a better idea anyway so that we learn about more things.
Oh, just thought of this, what if what one child wants is on the back of the page another child wants. Copying it would be the only way. I suppose we could mount the first child's page onto other paper so ever deciding to color the back is out of the question.
Is this a gray area? Or am I making something out of nothing?
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marihalojen
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Excellent booklet, Krisann.
I am really fond of page 22 for some unknown reason.  I keep clicking back to it and chuckling.  Copywrite laws were the worst class I had to take in college (not withstanding Am. Civics taught by an Indonesian who wrote the text himself. Once I mastered his accent that class got better) I remember the final exam was a very simple question - detail our plan of action regarding copywrite laws. I wrote a very simple answer - I will coordinate all questionable activities with the librarian. It worked! I passed! It was the shortest final exam I've ever taken .
If you have a good library with actual trained librarians working there, they will be able to help.
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Willa
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Molly Smith wrote:
| we've discussed the Dover coloring books. I bought a dozen or more to be used by my kiddos and my plan is that when we get to Arctic and Antarctic Life, for example, that the children will go through the book, pick the pages they like and rip them out. However, if two picked the same page I would just copy it for the other child. |
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Check the copyright in your Dover book. I can't jump off the computer to look, but I'm pretty sure their copyright notice allows for a quite free copy use. My memory was affirmed here
"Beautiful designs to color. And the best part about this 150+ title Dover series is the copyright, which allows you to make copies of the pages for your own and class use, even for crafts!"
When my older kids were little and we did lots of coloring, I'd buy 2 or more Dover cbs if I wanted each kid to have their own personal copy -- sometimes that worked better and the price was right. But in your circumstances, with very limited duplication, I would make the copy since the Dover books allowed it.
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JennGM
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WJFR wrote:
Molly Smith wrote:
| we've discussed the Dover coloring books. I bought a dozen or more to be used by my kiddos and my plan is that when we get to Arctic and Antarctic Life, for example, that the children will go through the book, pick the pages they like and rip them out. However, if two picked the same page I would just copy it for the other child. |
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Check the copyright in your Dover book. I can't jump off the computer to look, but I'm pretty sure their copyright notice allows for a quite free copy use. My memory was affirmed here
"Beautiful designs to color. And the best part about this 150+ title Dover series is the copyright, which allows you to make copies of the pages for your own and class use, even for crafts!"
When my older kids were little and we did lots of coloring, I'd buy 2 or more Dover cbs if I wanted each kid to have their own personal copy -- sometimes that worked better and the price was right. But in your circumstances, with very limited duplication, I would make the copy since the Dover books allowed it. |
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Many of Dover publications are books that the copyright expired. So any copyright on Dover's part is for the form, not the content, if that makes any sense.
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Martha
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Is it illegal for a mother to copy materials purchased for her kids own use? In other words, if she's not making money off the copies? I don't think anyone here is arguing it's okay to copy and resell - that's clearly wrong.
I think the purpose of copyright laws is to protect profits and to give credit where it is due. I don't think doing this would affect profits and it still gives due credit. I don't think it would affect profits because I think it would actually hurt many companies if people couldn't have full personal use. I know I wouldn't buy an item that I'd have to buy in triple quantities to use legally, unless it was VERY affordable. I just wouldn't buy it and would look for an item that wouldn't require that kind of expense.
I'm more likely to just make the kids not write in them and use notebooks instead. It's just too much work to copy things. Even so, I only substitute notebooks for a few books because it can be a lot of extra work for the poor kid.
Well, I'm off to call our legal insurance company to ask about a copywrite attorney, if they have one....
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Martha wrote:
| Is it illegal for a mother to copy materials purchased for her kids own use? In other words, if she's not making money off the copies? I don't think anyone here is arguing it's okay to copy and resell - that's clearly wrong. |
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The short answer is yes and no, you can copy a *very* small portion such as a page, article, or section but only for one class and only a few times per term, unless the copyright notice give broader limits.
The link in my previous post takes you to a good deal of information specific to educators. I copied some of it here:
Section 107 Agreement on Guidelines for Classroom Copying In Not-For-Profit Educational Institutions with Respect to Books and Periodicals wrote:
GUIDELINES
I. Single Copying for Teachers
A single copy may be made of any of the following by or for a teacher at his or her individual request for his or her scholarly research or use in teaching or preparation to teach a class:
A. A chapter from a book;
B. An article from a periodical or newspaper;
C. A short story, short essay or short poem, whether or not from a collective work;
D. A chart, graph, diagram, drawing, cartoon or picture from a book, periodical, or newspaper;
II. Multiple Copies for Classroom Use
Multiple copies (not to exceed in any event more than one copy per pupil in a course) may be made by or for the teacher giving the course for classroom use or discussion; provided that:
A. The copying meets the tests of brevity and spontaneity as defined below; and,
B. Meets the cumulative effect test as defined below; and,
C. Each copy includes a notice of copyright
Definitions
Brevity
(i) Poetry:
(a) A complete poem if less than 250 words and if printed on not more than two pages or,
(b) from a longer poem, an excerpt of not more than 250 words.
(ii) Prose:
(a) Either a complete article, story or essay of less than 2,500 words, or (b) an excerpt from any prose work of not more than 1,000 words or 10% of the work, whichever is less, but in any event a minimum of 500 words.
[Each of the numerical limits stated in “i” and “ii” above may be expanded to permit the completion of an unfinished line of a poem or of an unfinished prose paragraph.]
(iii) Illustration: One chart, graph, diagram, drawing, cartoon or picture per book or per periodical issue.
(iv) “Special” works: Certain works in poetry, prose or in “poetic prose” which often combine language with illustrations and which are intended sometimes for children and at other times for a more general audience fall short of 2,500 words in their entirety.
Paragraph “ii” above notwithstanding such “special works” may not be reproduced in their entirety; however, an excerpt comprising not more than two of the published pages of such special work and containing not more than 10% of the words found in the text thereof, may be reproduced.
Spontaneity
(i) The copying is at the instance and inspiration of the individual teacher, and
(ii) The inspiration and decision to use the work and the moment of its use for maximum teaching effectiveness are so close in time that it would be unreasonable to expect a timely reply to a request for permission.
Cumulative Effect
(i) The copying of the material is for only one course in the school in which the copies are made.
(ii) Not more than one short poem, article, story, essay or two excerpts may be copied from the same author, nor more than three from the same collective work or periodical volume during one class term.
(iii) There shall not be more than nine instances of such multiple copying for one course during one class term.
[The limitations stated in “ii” and “iii” above shall not apply to current news periodicals and newspapers and current news sections of other periodicals.]
III. Prohibitions as to I and II Above
Notwithstanding any of the above, the following shall be prohibited:
(A) Copying shall not be used to create or to replace or substitute for anthologies, compilations or collective works. Such replacement or substitution may occur whether copies of various works or excerpts therefrom are accumulated or reproduced and used separately.
(B) There shall be no copying of or from works intended to be “consumable” in the course of study or of teaching. These include workbooks, exercises, standardized tests and test booklets and answer sheets and like consumable material.
(C) Copying shall not:
(a) substitute for the purchase of books, publishers’ reprints or periodicals;
(b) be directed by higher authority;
(c) be repeated with respect to the same item by the same teacher from term to term.
(D) No charge shall be made to the student beyond the actual cost of the photocopying.
Agreed MARCH 19, 1976.
Ad Hoc Committee on Copyright Law Revision: BY SHELDON ELLIOTT STEINBACH.
Author-Publisher Group: Authors League of America: BY IRWIN KARP, Counsel.
Association of American Publishers, Inc.: BY ALEXANDER C.HOFFMAN,
Chairman, Copyright Committee. |
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Section III. (B) specifically states that consumables cannot be copied at all unless permission is listed in the copyright (i.e. The Homeschool Organizer specifically states it can be reproduced for personal use) or the copyright has expired.
Other things can be copied on a limited basis.
HTH 
Blessings,
Krisann
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Martha
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Well, my legal insurance does not cover copyright or patent lawyers. Learn something new everyday... 
shartlesville wrote:
| [quote=Section 107 Agreement on Guidelines for Classroom Copying In Not-For-Profit Educational Institutions with Respect to Books and Periodicals] |
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But we are NOT classrooms, not-for-profits or institutions. Nor are we distributing to a public, such as a professor to his class. I don't see this example transferring to the general private citizen.
What's the law on private citizens copying for personal use a workbook page they have purchased privately?
Let's say John Q buys workbook A at the local bookstore.
John Q takes the workbook home.
In his home, he copies the pages he wants to use.
They are not giving or showing these copies to anyone who doesn't live in their home.
They are not returning the original workbook.
They are not modifying the item to appear as their own or remove credit from the authors/publishers.
They are not selling the copies or in any making money off of the copies.
What is the legal situation here? I may have to call an attorney just to ask.... It's nagging me like crazy.
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Lavenderfields
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Martha wrote:
Is it illegal for a mother to copy materials purchased for her kids own use? In other words, if she's not making money off the copies? I don't think anyone here is arguing it's okay to copy and resell - that's clearly wrong.
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It depends on the author/publisher. One site I was reading last night said to ask if you may make copies for your family. Dover's coloring books say that you can, but CHC does not allow copying for family members unless you purchase the product at the group price. Depending on your family size, it might be worth it to buy it at the group price
God Bless
Robynn
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Elizabeth
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Lavenderfields wrote:
It depends on the author/publisher. One site I was reading last night said to ask if you may make copies for your family. Dover's coloring books say that you can, but CHC does not allow copying for family members unless you purchase the product at the group price. Depending on your family size, it might be worth it to buy it at the group price
God Bless
Robynn |
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Herein lies the problem (or at least one of them). I look at the group price and frankly, there is very, very little that is worth that. [The only exception that comes to mind is precise, specialized materials for special education.] If it's going to cost that kind of money, it is time for me to move on and find a similar product for less money with a better policy and just make do. I make that decision over and over again when I am tempted by authentic certified Montessori and I settle for "good enough" God blesses "good enough" when we are being faithful stewards. It's a huge marketing plus imo, for a company to be able to say "You can use this for years and for everybody!" If you want people to be repeat buyers, then revise it every so often and offer the revised version at a discount to the faithful customers who got you going.
I'm a teeny, tiny vendor and my livelihood does not depend on sales of curriculum or books, so I can't really speak for the vending world. To some degree, though, homeschool vendors are ministers as much as they are business people. I've given away enough books to know that God does bless us for taking into consideration the real material needs of our market. Very few families can afford $150 lesson plans, particularly when blogging (copious plans and ideas there), message boards (again, lots of ideas), and phenomenal FREE resources like Mater Amabilis are out there for the industrious who search a little. Very few people use a lesson plan as written; if you are going to tweak it any way, you think twice or three times before buying when it's priced out of reach.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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shartlesville
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Here is the actual section from the US Copyright Office:
Quote:
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors. |
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It is as clear as mud.
I would say based on *this* that using it for non-profit educational use is not copyright infringement. But based on the circular they publish with the letter I quoted above, it would be.
There is no "fair use" policy for average every day citizens except when using small portions for criticism, comment, news reporting, etc. as listed above.
We cannot, as "Joe Citizen," freely copy things just because we are using them exclusively in our own homes for ourselves or our families.
We can use limited copying, such as a page or two, or a chapter of a book, etc. But copying an entire book, workbook, etc. is not allowed.
HTH 
Blessings,
Krisann
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I personally would not buy any book that I couldn't use for whomever in my family I wanted to. When I buy a book from Amazon, etc I OWN it and they don't tell me only one of my dc can read it! Good grief, why should lesson plans be any different? I am not talking about copying for resale or return, but putting limits on how many children within my own family I could use lesson plans for is IMHO uncalled for. I won't support a company that doesn't allow for that.
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Bookswithtea
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OK, I confess, I don't understand all this legal jargon.
If I purchase a workbook or something that has worksheets in it, and I have my child write his answers on a separate sheet of paper or even answer them orally (this way, I am not making any copies), am I still violating a copyright law? This seems different to me than copying a workbook.
Am I *obligated* to use the item with only one child because that's what the company intends?
To me, this is a grey area. Here's another example. I buy a CD, which I love and listen to often. I have a friend who is hard on times and I decide to *give* her my cd. Now I don't have a cd and she does. I never made a copy and I don't buy myself a new one. Yet, the company is still "out" 1 purchase because I decided to donate mine. Not "intended use," but not exactly a violation, either, imho. Or is it???
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Martha
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shartlesville wrote:
We cannot, as "Joe Citizen," freely copy things just because we are using them exclusively in our own homes for ourselves or our families.
We can use limited copying, such as a page or two, or a chapter of a book, etc. But copying an entire book, workbook, etc. is not allowed.
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You're right. That's clear as mud because I didn't draw that assumption at all???
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shartlesville
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| If I purchase a workbook or something that has worksheets in it, and I have my child write his answers on a separate sheet of paper or even answer them orally (this way, I am not making any copies), am I still violating a copyright law? This seems different to me than copying a workbook. |
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As far as I can see this would not be a violation in the strict sense of the law because you did not "copy" anything.
Quote:
| Am I *obligated* to use the item with only one child because that's what the company intends? |
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As long as you aren't copying it, I don't think it matters.
Quote:
| To me, this is a grey area. Here's another example. I buy a CD, which I love and listen to often. I have a friend who is hard on times and I decide to *give* her my cd. Now I don't have a cd and she does. I never made a copy and I don't buy myself a new one. Yet, the company is still "out" 1 purchase because I decided to donate mine. Not "intended use," but not exactly a violation, either, imho. Or is it??? |
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There is a specific section in the copyright law that ALLOWS you to sell or give away the specific item you purchased, you cannot sell or give away COPIES of the item you purchased.
It is confusing.
I would say, do what you think is right. The FBI is not going to break your door down looking for you just because you are sharing workbook pages with your kids.
We all have a little voice that nags us saying, "You really shouldn't be doing this" if we are doing something wrong. If you don't hear it, you're probably ok, as long as you are not choosing to ignore it! KWIM? 
Blessings,
Krisann
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Maddie
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lapazfarm wrote:
| I personally would not buy any book that I couldn't use for whomever in my family I wanted to. When I buy a book from Amazon, etc I OWN it and they don't tell me only one of my dc can read it! Good grief, why should lesson plans be any different? I am not talking about copying for resale or return, but putting limits on how many children within my own family I could use lesson plans for is IMHO uncalled for. I won't support a company that doesn't allow for that. |
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You read my mind.
I've never seen a copyright on a forum post before, Krisann. I'm just curious why you need it. Are you a writer?
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kingvozzo
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Maybe I'm way off base, and my little nagging voice isn't loud enough .I do not copy entire books to use with multiple children, but I have NO problem with copying pages in a book if we want to re-use it. We have a test-prep book that I purchased for my 8 y/o ds. I have intermittently copied different sections that I know he would need to do again.
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shartlesville
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threesilosfarm wrote:
| I've never seen a copyright on a forum post before, Krisann. I'm just curious why you need it. Are you a writer? |
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I do some writing, mostly poetry and newsletter articles but I am in the process of finishing a children's book that I hope to have published. I do a lot of website design, graphics, and desktop publishing.
I suppose it was more out of habit than anything, but probably a good idea. It doesn't hurt anyway.
kingvozzo wrote:
| Maybe I'm way off base, and my little nagging voice isn't loud enough .I do not copy entire books to use with multiple children, but I have NO problem with copying pages in a book if we want to re-use it. We have a test-prep book that I purchased for my 8 y/o ds. I have intermittently copied different sections that I know he would need to do again. |
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I believe this would fall under "fair use" because you are only copying sections of it on an intermittent basis for non-profit educational use. Now if you eventually copied the entire book or even most of it, then it would be considered a copyright violation.
Blessings,
Krisann
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Krisann
DH Cris;
DC John, Elizabeth, Lilyann ^i^, Emily, Kate, Julia, Sam, & Jack;
DGC Kira, Auston, Travis, & Sarah.
My Blog: Isla del Esperanza
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Martha
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| Posted: July 24 2006 at 9:51pm | IP Logged
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shartlesville wrote:
Bookswithtea wrote:
| If I purchase a workbook or something that has worksheets in it, and I have my child write his answers on a separate sheet of paper or even answer them orally (this way, I am not making any copies), am I still violating a copyright law? This seems different to me than copying a workbook. |
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As far as I can see this would not be a violation in the strict sense of the law because you did not "copy" anything. |
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Now see there, that's no different than just copying the workbook pages to me. It's just us using what we purchased so that we get the most use out of our materials.
shartlesville wrote:
There is a specific section in the copyright law that ALLOWS you to sell or give away the specific item you purchased, you cannot sell or give away COPIES of the item you purchased.
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THAT isn't confusing to me at all nor do I see any problem with that. I don't think anyone here does have a problem with that?
I think most do have a problem with buying something and then being told how we can use it within our own homes for our own families. I'm sorry, but if I own something I'll do as I like with it while it's in my possession.
Seton gets around this b/c we don't buy their plans, we lease them as part of the course enrollment. That's why we have to send them back. We never bought them, so we don't own them. I don't copy their plans, but I do make notes from them in my HSTracker lesson plans for the kids comming up behind as future FYIs to me later. This is legal.
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Copyright Laws and Curriculum
