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Cheryl
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 4:50pm | IP Logged
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Have any of you found an easy way to do this? I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not, but I just told my dd 4 we were done nursing and I experienced the biggest tantrum ever. She is now gone with my dh, who is getting his haircut, and I feel like crying. We left on good terms, but I doubt that tonight's bedtime will go smoothly.
A little background: She's my 3rd and the only baby I've ecologically breastfed. When I had baby #4 in March, she nursed at night before bed and in the morning when she woke up. Sometimes she would get up in the night and I'd ask her to wait until the alarm went off. She would whine for a bit, then sleep on the floor or in our bed. Sometimes she'd ask to nurse in the day and I let her for a minute or two. At the end of May we moved. She started waking up at 6:00, probably because there are no blinds in her room. Sometimes I nursed her right away and sometimes I tried to get her to wait. If I was nursing the baby, she would wait. At some point she became very rude. She says, "I want to nurse!" over in over in that angry, pouty voice. Sometimes I tell her to ask politely. After awhile she'll say please. Other times I just nursed her so she wouldn't wake my dh up. We were recently watching a 3 year old niece. She was often rude while she was here. Today I was nursing the baby and talking to my sister on the phone. My dd 4 said "I want to nurse!" I told her she couldn't because I was nursing the baby. She repeated it over and over loudly, so that I had to get off the phone. I told her that it wasn't right for her to talk to me that way and that she couldn't nurse until the baby was done. She carried on and on and I said that's it -I'm done nursing her.
Now I guess I have to follow through. It won't be easy. I really thought she would wean herself sometime soon, but the frequency has been increasing. Have any of you abruptly weaned like this. How did it go? Do you have any suggestions?
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Cheryl
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Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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jdostalik
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 5:04pm | IP Logged
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Cheryl,
I have a lot of experience weaning 4 year olds!  
I just weaned my latest four year old--Anna turns 4 1/2 this month...But, it was gradual...I usually leave the nightime nursing as the last one to go. I lay down with them and then I slowly shorten the duration of the time they can nurse until it is really a few seconds...then we switch to cuddle-bugging (our family term for snuggling)...until they fall asleep...If that doesn't work, I will let her "hold" the na-na (our nickname for nursing/breast) until she falls asleep--I know it sounds weird, but it has worked for my last two kids...
I really think that your ability to nurse a little one to age four is such a wonderful thing...hang in there...
If it makes you feel better, I think your daughter's behavior is completely normal. Anna has been acting similarly over the last few months but her behavior has finally levelled out, though, she is still acting a bit sassy--I have come to the conclusion that four year olds are like adolescents without the hormones! 
Please feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss this further. I am just so grateful that I have always managed to wean the older child before the next baby is born...I am still nursing my 22 month old...I just can't imagine tandem nursing 3 kids!!! 
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Jennifer in TX
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Betsy
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 5:10pm | IP Logged
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I prepared my soon to be 4 year old about two months before by telling him that when he turned 4 he would be done. He woke up every morning before his birthday and asked if he was 4 today, smiled, and asked to nurse. By the time of his birthday had weaned him self. 
So...this probably hasn't been much help, but the story still makes me smile!!
Betsy
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ALmom
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 6:38pm | IP Logged
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Just because you got frustrated and told your dd that nursing was over, doesn't mean you have to stick to it. I have done/said things like that and had to apologize - but then set clear limits on the behavior and its consequences that we both could live with.
You can certainly go back to her, talk to her about her behaviour, tell her that you will not nurse when she is yelling at you or when the baby is nursing - whatever your ground rules are, but then you can always apologize for saying you wouldn't nurse at all and if you catch her in a well behaved moment, you can offer to nurse.
Then be sure to make sure she is well fed, has fluids (we kept a water bottle at the bed and I always asked dd to sip first and then I would nurse). We found that some of the nursing was just thirst. We also found that there was a bit of testing at different points to see if she really could - or just to push my buttons. Then, when there was the assurance, she gave it up on her own, proud of how grown up she was. If it was just pushing buttons, if I could remain calm long enough by simply walking away or saying something like "mommy doesn't respond when you talk to me like that." then she would calm down enough for us to get through. This particular dd has always been one that takes her time to make up her mind, but when it is made up - it is set. She was that way at 3 and 4 too, so when she made up her mind to nurse, she could get very annoying if it wasn't a good time for me. I had to be calm and avoid pitting us in a direct battle while still retaining the limits that were set (ie you have to take a sip first repeated calmly many times). Knowing that I would also offer to nurse her without her asking, seemed to help her realize she wasn't being pushed away - we really just were making adjustments to new situations. Once she had that security, along with the water, she simply weaned herself.
Janet
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stefoodie
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 6:38pm | IP Logged
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I did the same thing as Betsy, kinda warned her that it was time to stop when she was 4. She didn't totally wean herself by that time but she was more willing. We also did it in stages, with the nighttime nursing last to go. Daytime was really easy because she'd get preoccupied with play and following her big brothers around. We've never done great with abrupt weaning. So it's always been a gradual process. With the first 2 I tried to transition to a bottle (a mistake with the 2nd because then he became so dependent on it!). With all of them what worked was to refuse them a bit at first, and then more often, and try to distract them, except for the nighttime one. It also helped to talk to them about doing it later, e.g., if they asked in the middle of the day, I'd say, why don't we eat/drink ___, and I'll nurse you when we go to bed tonight?
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Cheryl
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 8:48pm | IP Logged
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It's so good to hear from other people who nurse as long as I am. If I talked to my family about this, they'd probably say I should have weaned her a long time ago - or they'd be thinking it. Tonight I read to my dd in her bed. She wanted to nurse, but I said no. We talked about going on a date together Sat. morning. Then she wanted to look at books in bed by herself. Now she's asleep. I don't know what I'll do if she wants to nurse tomorrow. I think I'll pray about it tonight.
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Cheryl
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dsauclair
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 10:20pm | IP Logged
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My two girls are 21 months apart and for the first 2 years of the younger one, I had to tandem nurse. My older one, now 4.5 weaned herself just a few months ago. I think what I did was to latch on to whatever interests her at that time, e.g. a particular book to be read over and over again, or a Veggie Tales movie, and reminding her of those as she starts to want to nurse. Sometimes it works as a distraction, sometimes as an incentive.
I don't think she's completely weaned because she seems to be fixated on "mama" (the girls' term for nursing/breast) and would put her face on it when she needs to be comforted. However, she also thinks of herself as a big girl now and is a bit shy about nursing. I offered to hold her hand, give her back rubs, and sing to her our special nightime songs to help her sleep and she's taken to that routine now instead of nursing.
All these didn't happen overnight, and the weaning took place over a few weeks of trying out different things, so don't despair. Something will click! (I'm also glad to read your post and find other moms nursing through the toddler years!)
Take care,
Diane
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mrsgranola
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 10:38pm | IP Logged
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 Just want to thank you all for the smile. With all the LLL calls I get, it's so nice to hear of some moms worrying about weaning a 4 year instead of a 4 month old!
JoAnna
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Jen L.
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| Posted: July 13 2006 at 11:23pm | IP Logged
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My youngest daughter finally stopped nursing all together after her 5th birthday! I had put restrictions on the nursing by then (only at home, then only in bed). She was only nursing in the morning first thing and at bedtime probably for the whole last year or so. Some days she wouldn't nurse at all. I started offering her a story OR "mama's milk" at bedtime. I like that she was choosing to nurse, rather than doing it out of habit.
Besides habit, I also think that my dd liked the individual attention that she got when she nursed.
Between the baby and the move, it seems logical that your dd is asking to nurse more. I think that the advice to not reward her bad attitude combined with intentional special time with her could really make a difference.
I'm praying for you -- know that you are not alone!
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rivendellmom
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| Posted: July 14 2006 at 6:57am | IP Logged
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I weaned my daughter at the age of 4 also. I just started restricting nursing to bedtime, and of course when she needed comfort. The sassy behavior is typical of a 4 year old, I would just say that we don't nurse now unless you are going to bed. That usually works during the day. When we finally weaned at night she was 5. It took a long time, she really still sleeps with us (or on a cot next to my bed) most nights and she is 7 now. At the time I thought she would never wean, but now I remember those days and smile. Work on the behavior first, and then decide if you really care about weaning.
Jen
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Cheryl
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| Posted: July 14 2006 at 7:29am | IP Logged
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Thanks for your ideas. I'm still not 100% sure I want to wean, but I'm trying it. This morning I nursed the baby from 5-6. Then just after I put the baby down, dd 4 came downstairs. She kept saying she wanted to nurse and I tried to comfort her other ways. It worked out well that everyone else was sleeping so I could give her individual attention. We had tea and breakfast together. If you have any other ideas of special times you spend with your daughters - not nursing - I'd love to hear them.
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Cheryl
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hylabrook1
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| Posted: July 14 2006 at 7:37am | IP Logged
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I agree with what everyone else has said about talking through when/how much it is okay to nurse. Also, I told my 4 year old (who weaned from bedtime nursing shortly after her 4th birthday), "You can nurse for a couple of minutes at bedtime, and then we'll snuggle until time to go in your own bed." She was willing to abide by that, and often went, not to her own bed, but to snuggle with an older sister.
As far as the all of the typical behavior of getting "bugacious" when Mommy is on the telephone, I would not engage the discussion on its content (the real deal is not about nursing, but about your attention being on someone other than the 4 year old; and, yes, this is VERY typical 4 year old behavior). FWIW, what I have done with children who can't/won't leave my alone while I'm on the phone is to tell them the choice is don't interrupt or whine at me, or when the phone rings you have to stay in another room/your own room until I am done on the phone. This has worked really well, since of course the dc prefer to be able to be where they want to be.
HTH,
Nancy
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ALmom
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| Posted: July 14 2006 at 4:30pm | IP Logged
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One thing I always reminded myself was that I wanted my dd last memories of nursing to be special - not of a grumpy mom. I don't know why one in particular knew the buttons to push to get me aggravated, but being determined to calmly deal with the behavior and keep the nursing seperate really did make a difference. I also do know that when I am stressed, my nursing dc want to nurse more - its as if they sense my mood and need that extra security. Of course, when I'm stressed, sometimes I just need a bit of space. My infants, of course, are too young to understand that but a 4 yo can understand that mommy needs 5 minutes to do xyz and while I'm doing this - why don't you get our nursing chair all ready (or whatever).
I don't know what your needs are in this but I think the first part of the weaning process is balancing the needs of both the older child and the parent. Sometimes they are nursing out of habit or boredom and distraction doesn't bother them, sometimes mine was just too tired to get up and find a drink and mom was easier (till we had the sports water bottle by her bed), and sometimes they have a real emotional need just before they are ready to let go. Taking some time to sort through what your dd real needs are - and what your level of tolerance is (sometimes I found that I had trouble emotionally with the nursing just because I was plain too tired and one or two days of good naps got rid of that antsy, I hate nursing feeling on my part). Just some ideas - I did not want my dc to think that my willingness to meet their needs depended on their being "good". But I also didn't want them to get away with typical 4 yo misbehavior. So I really did have to make sure that consequences were consistent. So for instance, if dd is yelling at me to nurse, me telling her that I do not respond to yelling is the same response I would give if she were yelling at me to read a book, eat a banana, whatever. I am not denying or putting off nursing as such - simply enforcing the family politeness rule which holds for nursing just like anything else. The more matter of fact I could manage to be, the quicker and easier all the behavior issues were addressed. But I also learned to assess if there were triggers - late afternoon hunger, overtired, molars coming in, or the fact that I had gotten caught up in the needs of the moment and pushed this child away too much and made a private resolution to try to forstall the problem in the future (maybe instituting a healthy 3PM snack,or maybe having a special story hour with the toddler when the baby slept instead of dashing about doing every chore I could possibly get done - whatever we thought would address the problem and be the best preventative.)
The other thing I noticed was that when there was a nursing infant, the cry for mom got my instant attention and one dd quickly associated nursing as the one way to compete for my attention. So anytime I was doing something where she wasn't center stage, she wanted to nurse (ie my attention). I began to call her bluff. Do you really want to nurse or do you just want mom to stop what she is doing and play with you? I'd often get a sheepish grin and then I could tell her that I had to do or finish xyz (put dinner in the oven, say) and then we'd sit down and read a book together. Giving her something to do to get ready for that time, helped her realize that this wasn't just putting her off and of course following through on the time. If she really needed to nurse, then I'd nurse her as soon as the dinner was in the oven (at 4 they are old enough to learn to wait as long as it is not a forever waiting a little longer).
I, personally, think that ages 3 and 4 are more challenging than 2!
Janet
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Cheryl
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| Posted: July 17 2006 at 3:54pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for all of your posts, Janet, you especially gave me much to think about. For now, we are trying to nurse only at bedtime and I'm focusing on trying to give my dd attention in other ways throughout the day.
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Cheryl
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Lisbet
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I've been there too. My oldest nursed until he was 5, and a few after him until 4-4 1/2. (which has included alot of tandem nursing) I would NOT let them nurse if they demanded or threw a fit. I did set limits gradually. Most weaned so slow and so gradually that I can't tell ya exactly how old they were when they weaned! It is a blessing to be able to speak openly about it and know that you are not alone.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Weaning a 4 year old
