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aussieannie
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| Posted: May 28 2006 at 4:17pm | IP Logged
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Can anyone help with this?
Is it possible to start with MUS and then change over to Saxon. Would this be a strange combination - or are they too different in their structure etc.
What I am thinking about is MUS to start with and going to Saxon at 5/4.
I am making decisions at present to change my curriculum and women are saying go to the MUS but I like the look of Saxon because it is what I am used to (Rod&Staff) but far less drill.
I have heard a few women say too, that MUS can have gaps in the higher grades. So that is another reason Saxon appeals for the higher levels.
I do like the idea though of the blocks used in MUS.
Has anyone tried this sort of transition or have any other feedback that may be helpful?
Feel sort of lost with it all.
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Victoria in AZ
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| Posted: May 30 2006 at 3:01pm | IP Logged
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I have tried this sort of transition, but not at the grade you mentioned. I do not find it a strange combination because I also found that MUS has some gaps. MUS has revamped their program and maybe the gaps have lessened?
With ds, I used Saxon until operations of fractions begin (4/5?). We found MUS especially strong in fractions because of the fraction manipulatives. DS really responded to these. MUS was ideal for us until Algebra. Unfortunately MUS did not click with Algebra for ds.
With dd, I began with MUS in 1 and 2, then switched to Saxon because of the gaps. I haven't found the switching around to be difficult at all. The blocks of MUS are fantastic. Dd can not learn her 2 facts with ease and MUS said not to progress at all until she got these. MUS is probably right, but the control-freak-must-produce-teacher-mom in me insisted we do something so I began the Saxon grade 3 because I had it in the house anyways.
Saxon does have a fair amount of drill. I never had my dc do both sides of the lesson sheet as Saxon suggests and I often skipped lessons if I was sure dc already knew the topic. You know Charlotte suggests short lessons and Saxon's are seldom short!
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aussieannie
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| Posted: May 30 2006 at 5:30pm | IP Logged
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Thank you Victoria, that is extremely helpful info. I am seeing the MUS program in the flesh this coming weekend at a homeschooling seminar so I am very curious to see what everyone talks so highly of.
Despite that I am looking for Saxon material to swap my older children over from the Rod and Staff, but if I do decide to use the MUS with my younger ones I can't see the harm in using these fraction manipulatives to help reinforce certain basic concepts to older children.
Thank you once again!
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ALmom
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| Posted: May 31 2006 at 4:18am | IP Logged
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We also switched from MUS to Saxon at some point. We did MUS through the intermediate lesson - as this dc really needed the hands-on that first year to solidify concepts. We hadn't done much math at all with her till about age 10 as she had a vision problem that we finally got corrected around the time we started really doing any math program.
It was an easy switch. MUS really built solid concepts so you will have to be flexible. I went through Saxon 5/4 testing quickly to see what she had retained and to provide some of the math vocabulary that wasn't in MUS (at least not the older version we had). There were a few chapters we did very, very quickly because she had the concept down pat and just needed vocab. Other sections, we just did the test for the section because MUS had thouroughly covered it and moved on. Then there were sections we did in their entirety because the material was a new concept. Then we moved on. I did let her keep using her old algorithm from MUS for division until it was solid in her head - but this may have been more because this child had to overcome a few risidual effects of vision problems (left-right and letter/number reversals) and this helped her have a reason for why numbers went certain places before just taking the short cut. She did eventually basically switch over on her own.
After our quick run through Saxon 5/4, I simply did the Saxon on-line placement test for the following year - and we did Math 8/7. She has had no problem with that.
I do have the MUS Algebra and do use the tape to introduce the concept and then move to the Saxon - but use the Jacobs Math in one section because my older version of Saxon really truncates one concept into such unrecognizable parts that I think dc loses the whole picture of why you do the stuff in the first place. In any case, we have not any trouble switching back and forth. You just bascially have to keep in mind what concepts each covers - and be sure that they become familiar with some of the math vocabulary so your don't lose continuity.
Hope this helps!
Janet
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aussieannie
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| Posted: May 31 2006 at 3:48pm | IP Logged
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Janet, thank you so much for what you have shared as well - on this posting plus my other posting about Maths - at my home we really are at a crossroads as well as a day of reckoning  so you have been a great help giving me something 'tangible' to work with.
God bless you both for your support!
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aussieannie
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| Posted: June 20 2006 at 5:36pm | IP Logged
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Well, I've started the Saxon 5/4 - what a blessed relief! It is so much easier and less demanding than the Rod & Staff! I think my son feels has 'died on gone to maths heaven  ', I am still checking the MUS out and that one will take a bit more saving up for! (This is a lovely BIG transition for us after six years with R&S)
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 21 2006 at 12:18am | IP Logged
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Congrats! If your son is happy with Saxon, he probably won't like MUS anyways. (Generally dc like one or the other). My sons hated the hands on - felt it insulting and hated the videos. My girls didn't particularly care for the video with all these much littler kids doing the math - but they needed the hands on. The part I like best about MUS is the way they inroduce fractions so I go to that section and use those MUS manipuluatives even if we don't do the whole MUS program. Saxon mostly has them learning the algorithms for how to do operations with fractions but not much where they really understand why inverting and multiplying works.
Janet
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aussieannie
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| Posted: June 21 2006 at 12:23am | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| The part I like best about MUS is the way they inroduce fractions so I go to that section and use those MUS manipuluatives even if we don't do the whole MUS program. |
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That is very interesting what you said, if you don't mind could you elaborate on that? If I were not to use the whole program for the youngesters but just the manipulatives to explain important concepts what would you need to buy - only the manipulatives or a particular part of the program? How would I use that on a daily basis?
Thank you so much for your advise, very much appreciated!
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 21 2006 at 1:18am | IP Logged
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Well, it depends on how "naturally" your dc grasp fractions. MUS has overlays - different colors for 1/2s , 1/3s 1/5s, 1/6s, etc. So for instance, blue is 5ths. There is a 1/5, a 2/5 on up to a 5/5. There is a clear overlay marked into 5 equal parts - actually there are 2 of these. You can compare fractions 2/4 is going to fill the 1/2 overlay, or be the same size as the yellow 1/2. If they have trouble picturing which fractions are bigger, it is pretty easy to see. It is pretty easy to see addition of fractions with like denominators as you simply use the representative pieces next to each other and count the parts of the whole. It is also pretty easy to see equivalent fractions as you simply place differing overlays over whatever fraction (one going up and down and one going side to side) and you see 1/2 become 2/4 then3/6, etc.
From there, adding fractions with different denominators is a cinch.
They start next with finding a fraction of a whole number - using the standard unit blocks (cuisenairre rods would probably work just as well and describing things in terms of common real life situations - cutting into equal parts and then counting how many I get. They use the fractions to explain division but I'm not a stickler for the order things are introduced as long as my dc see the connections.
Next they introduce a fraction of a fraction - ie 2/5 of 1/3 (this is how it is heard in real life - then of is associated with times). You use the 1/3 piece and overlay and cover it with the 1/5 overlay going the other direction. This divides your 1/3 into 5hts - you need two of them - but now you have to count how many total equal parts you have.
When you get to division of fractions - it is explained in terms of finding out how many 1/5ths are in 4/5. Then you move to fractions without common denominators - but solve them finding common denominators and then dividing tops and bottoms. After you have done this enough, you begin to see a pattern (actually my dc discovered it themselves- it is the same as inverting and multiplying. Ie this is a shortcut for finding the common denominator and dividing. (News for me - I had always just memorized the algorithm and plugged away).
Now, I must admit that I always go back to the book to figure out the fractions as the algorithms are too beat into my head. But my dc have a better feel for fractions. I was still trying to understand the next overlay - in my plodding way trying to think it through when my kids are discovering the patterns and teaching me!
I would think you could get by with the Teachers book at the intermediate level (or the intermediate video) and the fraction manipulatives. I tend to take a break before we get to fractions and simply do a unit using MUS manipulatives. When dc have discovered the pattern, we jump back into Saxon and practice the algorithms some. However, I don't necessarily use MUS with all of mine. Some of mine simply have a mathematics brain and they intuitively know what they are doing. If they've already figured it out when we get there, I don't bother. But if I see signs that they are confusing which fractions are larger or getting bogged down remembering what to do - I pull out MUS.
I had one child that simply could not remember algorithms for anything. She placed numbers in bizarre places for long division. We did it MUS way and everything cleared up. Same thing with fractions - couldn't remember which number got flipped, etc. Again doing MUS cleared it right up.
Hope this helps.
Janet
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aussieannie
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Thank you, Thank you, God Bless you for all that!
One more question I have, the starter block set and completer block set - what are they used to teach specifically - do you reccomend them at all and what would you need program-wise to use them properly without using the whole program?
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 21 2006 at 1:52pm | IP Logged
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The basic set is used for place value, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, area and perimeter. I use it since I have it but wouldn't necessarily purchase it if I didn't already have it as cuisenairre rods are much the same idea (unless it is the one with the fraction manipulatives).
I will say it did help my algorithm challenged daughter with multiplication of 2 and higher digit numbers and long division. They have a special algorithm based on place value and it helped my daughter actually see why you do the division the way you do. The explanation for this is at the end of the Intermediate teacher's book. It would also be demonstrated on the Intermediate video.
The addition and subtraction and place value and area are introduced in the beginning level but once you have the blocks it is pretty intuitive how to use them for this so you probably wouldn't need the earlier level and they do a very quick review at the beginning of the Intermediate level video.
I have used the basic blocks to teach place value, multiplication (especially with multi-digit numbers) and division - especially for the child who had difficulty with algorithms and area and perimeter. I don't use them as much but still do pick them up to illustrate something in Saxon from time to time.
The completer block set is for Algebra (I think) and I didn't really use that much. Since I had the Algebra video, I showed it to one of my children as an intro before starting Saxon Algebra. It made the transition to a new concept a bit easier - and they did do a good job explaining things. I didn't use the blocks.
I cannot remember whether the fractions were in the completer set or the basic set but if you have both those sets, you should have the fraction manipulatives, I think. If things are still packaged and you are not sure, you should be able to contact a MUS rep. in case you wanted to return something. The fraction manipulatives are all different color rectangles and squares in a notebook type thing with pockets and include clear overlays divided into different numbers of equal parts.
My favorite MUS level and the one we use most often is the intermediate level. Now, I must mention that I have the 1999 version so I don't know what has changed since then. I do know they did a revision at some point after that so you may want to ask someone with current MUS or ask the rep nearest you what is in the current version of this level or find an older version used. If you are using Saxon, I don't see how you would need the student books as Saxon has plenty of problems on each concept. I would just use the problems in the MUS TM for practice and then let the dc use the manipulatives to do some of the initial Saxon problems until they were comfortable without. Usually my dc were quick to move on to doing problems without, often just from the TM problems. When we were doing long division, I esplained it the MUS way for my algorithm challenged child and let her do the problems that way. I told her this other (Saxon explanation) was basically just a shortcut and she could do it the shortcut way whenever she was comfortable with it. She did eventually shift over although it took a while. Funny thing - I always had to do the problem my (Saxon) way when I was checking it. I still refer back to the MUS TM to refresh my memory on how to use some of the manipulatives. I have to work hard to wrap my brain around them but have learned a lot of whys long after I learned how to do the problems. My dc think more mathematically because of these illustrations of the concepts before memorizing an algorithm.
I hope this helps some. Hopefully the newer versions cover the same things or are grouped similiarly - but do double check that before investing. Also you may just wait and see how intuitive your son is. I have rarely used the blocks with my mathematical sons.
Janet
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aussieannie
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| Posted: June 21 2006 at 5:44pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| I hope this helps some. Hopefully the newer versions cover the same things or are grouped similiarly - but do double check that before investing. Also you may just wait and see how intuitive your son is. I have rarely used the blocks with my mathematical sons. |
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It does help - this has been tremendous. I will double check before spending, I have been given a DVD about MUS which I will watch and then 'weigh it all up'. My oldest is very good, then I have two girls and two more boys, I think the girls are not so inclinded to pick up concepts like my oldest boy, and I have a feeling with my next boy who is still only 3, that he might not catch on as well as my oldest (could be wrong on that feeling though), my oldest has always just been very clued-on. I am sure that if I were to purchase them with 5 children already, the MUS sounds as if it would be invaluable to some at the very least.
Many blessings to you Janet. 
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Can you go from MUS to Saxon?
