| Author | |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 3:36pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Is the purpose of dictation primarily for spelling? Or are we also "enforcing" punctuation?
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 3:39pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Spelling and grammar.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 4:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
And penmanship and writing technique.
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 4:10pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Why does SCM Spelling Wisdom seem to miss all those points?
I know I can just use it for the full weighing of all points, but it does seem lacking in those directions!
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 4:51pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Martha wrote:
| And penmanship and writing technique. |
|
|
Those are certainly side benefits of dictation lessons. I mean, certainly they should be offering their best penmanship when they write their dictation and they do pick up writing technique through the excellent choices in dictation lessons, but that's not really the purpose and focus of dictation lessons. Copywork has as its purpose penmanship and that's where I'd focus intently on that skill. Since dictation's focus is primarily spelling and grammar, I ask for best effort in penmanship, but I'm really focusing on spelling and grammar in our lesson.
Now, this does vary depending on the source. For example, WTM proposes memorization of most dictation lessons, whereas in a Charlotte Mason dictation, older students in Form IV and V are encouraged to memorize, but that is not done in early Forms. Also, in some circles, dictation is encouraged at a much younger age vs. the CM philosophy and method which does not recommend dictation before 4th grade/10yo. Anyway, all that to distinguish a Charlotte Mason dictation lesson from others...which may affect how you view the purpose of dictation.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 4:52pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
Why does SCM Spelling Wisdom seem to miss all those points?
I know I can just use it for the full weighing of all points, but it does seem lacking in those directions! |
|
|
I'm not sure what you mean, Jenn? Do you mean that SCM doesn't clearly explain the goal and side benefits of dictation lessons to you?
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 4:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mackfam wrote:
JennGM wrote:
Why does SCM Spelling Wisdom seem to miss all those points?
I know I can just use it for the full weighing of all points, but it does seem lacking in those directions! |
|
|
I'm not sure what you mean, Jenn? Do you mean that SCM doesn't clearly explain the goal and side benefits of dictation lessons to you? |
|
|
Yes, it seems the quoting from Charlotte Mason and instructions on how to use the book doesn't talk about anything but the spelling. No mention of grammar and correct punctuation.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 6:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I don't have time right now to go find my CM quotes on dictation, but I've always felt that many CM sources were kind of light or at least a little unclear about how CM used a dictation lesson to convey grammar.
Just to give a little perspective, Sarah graduates this year; she's what I'd consider an average student. Her ACT English score (which measures grammar and mechanics) is very high. She completed only three years of formal grammar in all her home schooling (we used Winston Grammar for all three years - one year in elem, one year in middle, one year in high school). The only other thing we did was provide a vast amount of great literature, and work on dictation lessons, 2 a week, every week, from 4th grade through 12th, integrating simple grammar/mechanics lessons in with our dictation lesson. That's it. So, just wanted to offer that this doesn't have to be over-complicated to work or to see benefits.
Just step out a little bit at a time in your dictation lessons - one grammar/punctuation focus, and then work on the spelling. Study/visualize. Done. The next week, continue working on the same thing, or if you sense there's understanding, focus on something new...the next thing. One step at a time. Don't be overwhelmed thinking of every.single.rule.of.grammar.that.there.ever.was....and how will you know what to cover when. Remember, we didn't do anything but focus on the basics in our formal and informal grammar studies and it has yielded a student that can understand and write in the English language well. And it's enough to satisfy a standardized test, so it does translate in that direction, too.
Ok...enough perspective...nitty gritty -->
Are you using a formal grammar program this year? Not necessary, but I thought I'd brainstorm with you if you're using something formal, on how to work it into a dictation lesson to help you with the grammar angle.
For the age/grade of your son, here's what I would recommend:
1) Focus on spelling as instructed.
2) If you're using a formal program, then choose ONE aspect from your formal program to focus on in your dictation lesson. Example: if you're learning about nouns in your program, ask your son to point out the nouns in his dictation selection.
3) If you're NOT using a formal program this year, no problem!! At this age/grade, I would choose only ONE thing at a time to focus on every couple of weeks...or as long as it takes to see understanding and mastery of the idea. Here's a simple little list of basic grammar/mechanics things to focus on (nothing crazy here - basic stuff):
** Noun
** Verb
** Subject of a sentence
** Sentences begin with capital letters
** Punctuation at the end of a sentence
** Commas separate items in a list
** Begin introducing the difference between common and proper nouns, and that proper nouns begin with a capital letter.
If your child is really struggling to master the above ideas - stop here. (Boys are often doing good to get to this point!) If you're sailing through, continue with...
** Begin introducing use of quotations and other punctuation that offset a quotation in a sentence.
** Difference between an apostrophe that shows possession as opposed to a plural ending.
And then...if a grammar/punctuation/mechanics point comes up in a dictation selection and you want to go into it a little, then do. Maybe there is a dash in a sentence - take the time to explain what it's doing there. Done.
Here is an example of a 5th grade dictation lesson (a boy) word for word (taken from a post on grammar/dictation lessons):All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen.
Here's how this dictation lesson sounds:
Me: Can you read this aloud?
**Child reads aloud**
Me: Are there any words in this sentence that you don't understand - you don't know what they mean?
Child: No.
Me: Are there any words in this sentence you think would be hard for you to spell?
Child: Yes...>> starts looking at the beginning of the selection <<......teaches and Creator. >> He underlines them on his study page <<
Me: Ok , let's talk about them a bit...teaches has a vowel pair - ea. Do you remember what ea says when they are found in a word together?
Child: Yep....E.
Me: Right. Now, let's take a look at Creator - it's capitalized because proper nouns are capitalized. Do you remember what a proper noun is?
Child: It's a special person, place, thing, or idea, right?
Me: Yes! It's a PARTICULAR person, place, or thing. So, Creator in this quote is a particular name of God, the Creator. So, it's capitalized. Are there any other capital letters in this sentence?
Child: No.
Me: Really? There are NO OTHER capital letters in this sentence?
Child: Oh yeah....the first letter...because the first letter of a sentence is always capitalized.
Me: YES!!!! You remember! And what is ALWAYS at the end of a sentence?
Child: A period.
Me: Hmmmm....Is it always a period?
Child: It is in this sentence.
Me: >> laughing << That's true...but are there any other punctuation marks that could end a sentence? What are they?
Child: >> thinks << ......an exclamation point........and a question mark.
Me: Yes! Great! Now, can you read the sentence aloud to me again?
Child: >> reads selection <<
Me: Great! Now, you work on making a picture of the words you underlined in your mind's eye. Can you study it for a while until you can see it in your mind with your eyes closed? Look at the first letter, and the letter that follows that, and the letter after that...and so on. Take a picture of all those letters in EXACTLY the right order. Spell it out loud if you need to.
.....................studies for a few minutes.....................
Child: I'm ready, I can see the words.
Me: Ok - good! Would you like to write them really big on the dry erase board now?
Child: OK. >> Writes words....while I stand nearby watching to make sure that he writes the words EXACTLY as they are spelled! I DON'T WANT a memory of an incorrectly spelled word <<
Me: Great! We'll study more tomorrow. This takes about 10 minutes. We covered spelling and grammar. Lesson over.
I don't know if this helps or just muddies the waters on dictation more. Let me know if we can clarify or make clearer.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SuzanneG
Forum Moderator
Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Idaho
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5465
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 6:22pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
It's hard to flesh all this out, because everything in a CM Language Arts environment is linked and feeds off of each other.
Dictation doesn't FOCUS on Grammar nec, but it's reinforced. Especially in the early years, simple concepts can be pointed out when initially going through the dictation.
You "enforce" punctuation and anything else that is within the dictation passage. It is to be copied and studied exactly as is.
You can talk about it (the grammar concept, punctuation, etc.) if you think it's noteworthy for the age/level of the child. But, you don't HAVE to, esp. during early years.
As kids get older and they begin a simple "formal" grammar program, then obviously more may be obvious to them and there is more to discuss.
ie: my daughters are currently learning about prepositional phrases. There were several prepositional phrases in their passages this week, and they recognized them right away.
Linking Jen's sections of Grammar and Dictation from her Language Arts Series, in case that's helpful to re-visit:
Dictation
Grammar
__________________
Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SeaStar
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 16 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9068
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 6:27pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
JennGM wrote:
Why does SCM Spelling Wisdom seem to miss all those points?
I know I can just use it for the full weighing of all points, but it does seem lacking in those directions! |
|
|
I'm not sure what you mean, Jenn? Do you mean that SCM doesn't clearly explain the goal and side benefits of dictation lessons to you? |
|
|
Yes, it seems the quoting from Charlotte Mason and instructions on how to use the book doesn't talk about anything but the spelling. No mention of grammar and correct punctuation. |
|
|
I was wondering the same thing, Jenn... do I just focus on spelling or grammar as well?
Because in essence, then my dc are memorizing spelling plus grammar.
That's a bit rocky with ds, who is improving a lot with his spelling but still gets very frustrated when I point out every. single. grammar mistake.
I've been wondering how to handle this...
__________________
Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SuzanneG
Forum Moderator
Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Idaho
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5465
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 7:02pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Seastar wrote:
Because in essence, then my dc are memorizing spelling plus grammar. |
|
|
They aren't really "memorizing"....they are studying the passage in order to re-create it.
Seastar wrote:
That's a bit rocky with ds, who is improving a lot with his spelling but still gets very frustrated when I point out every. single. grammar mistake.
|
|
|
If you begin to have lots of errors, then maybe back-up a bit in the level or length of the passage. We want to set them up for success with these passages when they are young. Now, when they are older, yes.....challenge them like crazy. But, in the early years, simple passages that you KNOW they will succeed in. They should not be making a ton of errors. If they are, then re-evaluate your dictation choices and give them easier ones.
These are in the first 10 exercises in Spelling Wisdom.
:: Better safe than sorry.
:: A penny saved is a penny earned.
You can keep backing up until you get to this beginning level. Then build from there.
Keeping in mind that a child wouldn't begin dictation until age 10 or 4th grade or so. So, even backing up a boy, age 11, to this beginning stage would NOT be a big deal.
Also, dictation is hard. If you're using other LA workbooks, grammar programs or spelling programs IN ADDITION TO dictation, they are going to be on language arts overload, so that may be another consideration.
Look at:
:: the rest of his LA workload
:: reading level compared to his dictation passages
:: level of dictation passages
:: subject of chosen dictation passages
:: concentration level during a short lesson
:: frequency & duration of dictation time during the day
__________________
Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 7:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
SeaStar wrote:
| Because in essence, then my dc are memorizing spelling plus grammar. |
|
|
Just to be clear, the children really shouldn't be "memorizing" anything - spelling or grammar. The idea is that they learn to visualize a word in order to spell it correctly, which I suppose you could make an argument and say that this is, in some form, memorization, and I probably wouldn't argue. But, it's also different. And it's important that the child is only working on 2 words per dictation lesson. 1 is fine. 3 is stretching it at this age.
There should be NO memorization of a grammar rule either. Just understanding. Like in my example, I ask my son if he remembers what a proper noun is...that came after MONTHS of just lightly talking about it in our dictation lessons, pointing out examples. And it fits because it's all within the context of that one sentence used in the dictation selection.
Really, if your child is overwhelmed with writing, spelling, or the grammar in a dictation lesson then one or more of these things is probably happening:
** Your selection is too long
** Your selection is too difficult in terms of reading level (which will be reflected in the arrangement of the sentence and the grammar you try to teach)
** You are trying to cover too much at once. Read sentence aloud. Identify difficult words. Identify ONLY ONE grammar/punctuation aspect. Visualize/study. Done.
** You are exceeding a 10 minute lesson.
** You started a dictation lesson after completing a language arts curriculum - this is too much and WILL overwhelm a child. Dictation IS enough.
Seastar wrote:
| That's a bit rocky with ds, who is improving a lot with his spelling but still gets very frustrated when I point out every. single. grammar mistake. |
|
|
This is a good point. Boys move MUCH slower through grammatical/mechanical understanding than girls. MUCH. I sometimes have to roll away from a concept and then come back later with my son - he sometimes just hits a wall. I don't really understand it, but I can tell when it happens. The first time it happened it was with beginning a sentence with a capital. He just could.not.remember it!! I was astounded. Not rocket science.   So...I just stopped working on that and moved on to another thing and focused on that for a while. I came back to capitalization a few months later, and he picked it up easily. Be flexible with a boy, and gentle on the volume you approach in a dictation lesson.
Be careful that you ONLY focus on one thing at a time in grammar. If you're really working on capitalizing sentences, then don't point out anything else. Just keep reinforcing that until your son doesn't forget to capitalize sentences anymore. After they demonstrate understanding/mastery....THEN it's time to move on and focus on something new. And if your child/son is really feeling the weight of NOT getting something, either roll back and come back to it later, or just be sure you're balancing the pointing out of the wrong with something positive.... >> Hmmm, I see that you still need to work on remembering that a proper noun begins with a capital letter, but I'm so glad you remembered to put the comma in the right place. Good job. <<
If you address every single grammar mistake it will definitely overwhelm a child, especially a boy.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Sept 17 2013 at 7:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Cross posting with Suzanne! 
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: CM Dictation Question
