Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.



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TryingMyBest
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Posted: Aug 22 2013 at 10:25pm | IP Logged Quote TryingMyBest

My DD is 3, almost 4. She's a good girl but is not always obedient (I really hate that word so I'm cringing as I write it). We've always done gentle discipline (or at least I do - DH can raise his voice sometimes). I think the root of is my lack of consistency which I will blame on the fact that I work and am therefore exhausted and always in a rush at the end of the day (although probably more because I'm lazy).

When DD was born, I read all of the AP books and really bought into that philosophy. I'm still pretty sympathetic to AP but am now re-thinking things a little bit. I don't want to be a tyrannical parent and we will never (yes I know - never say never) spank but there are some rules I would like to be obeyed. For example lately DD doesn't want to say prayers and really fights bedtime.

Any advice for books about discipline? Or tips for how to get little ones to obey you without fear?

Although I think the root of our problem is the lack of a daily rhythm and corresponding habits. Would Laying Down the Rails be good for a pre-schooler? Would that help both of us start to work on a more ordered life?

Jenn
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JodieLyn
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Posted: Aug 22 2013 at 10:43pm | IP Logged Quote JodieLyn

I've read a bazillion books.. so my own philosophies are a conglomeration and experience. But I've heard real good things lately about 1, 2, 3 Magic. And I'm thinking it's non-corporeal(or can be used that way) so may fit your sympathies fairly well.

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JodieLyn
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Posted: Aug 22 2013 at 10:47pm | IP Logged Quote JodieLyn

oh and Love and Logic.. that's the one I was thinking of.. 123 Magic I'd heard good things of but then more people started talking about Love and Logic.

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SeaStar
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Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 5:01am | IP Logged Quote SeaStar

JodieLyn wrote:
I've read a bazillion books.. so my own philosophies are a conglomeration and experience. But I've heard real good things lately about 1, 2, 3 Magic. And I'm thinking it's non-corporeal(or can be used that way) so may fit your sympathies fairly well.


I always come back to 1-2-3 Magic.

I love it because of its simplicity: you don't engage in any arguments/confrontations/discussion, etc.
When you see bad behavior, you simply start counting.

My dc know that when I start counting, I mean business.
If I get to three, that's it. They go to their room (ten minutes for a ten year old, 15 for 15 yr old, etc)... or longer depending on the offense.

That time apart is a great cooling off period for everyone, and behavior is much better after.

I love how author talks about how no one wants to hear a lot of behavior blah, blah, blah in the heat of the moment. First stop the behavior by counting, cool off during the time out, then discuss what you need to afterwards.

My library also has the dvd version of the book, which is also very good.

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SallyT
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Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 6:25am | IP Logged Quote SallyT

When I was in college, I used to babysit for a family with a really bright, funny, lovely 3-year-old daughter. I remember that the mother, as she was leaving, would say to her daughter, "Well, you've been a very obedient little girl today," as if that were the *really* high praise she had to dish out. And I always found that kind of cringe-making, though as a mother myself I now see where that mother might have been coming from . . .

Maybe the principle of "cheerful cooperation" is a better one generally, though there are times when I need a child to *obey,* as in they're heading for the street where cars are coming, and there's not time to argue about whether they're going to stop or not. But in matters of everyday life, I like to think in terms of cooperation, as in we're a family working together for each other's good. Not . . . that that . . . always happens, of course. But it's my ideal.

I have liked a lot of Dr. Ray Guarendi's approach, which emphasizes not getting caught up in whatever the child's funk is -- not letting them suck you into an argument or get you personally engaged with the misbehavior. My problem as a disciplinarian (well, one of my problems) is that I all too readily empathize with the child -- I can see exactly where they're coming from, and unless I catch myself, I'm all too likely to end up on their side, in their emotional bubble (this would be girls, mostly. Boys' emotional bubbles seem more impermeable), eating the ice cream of self-pity or outrage or whatever right along with them, even if what the outrage is about is the perfectly logical consequence I myself have handed out five minutes earlier.

What I work on all the time is being quietly authoritative: not listening to the ranting or the whining, just quietly, without raising my voice, handing out the consequence for the behavior (usually a physical removal from the immediate situation, to sit on the stairs or cool off in the child's own room) and making sure it happens without blowing my own top or starting to feel sorry for the poor child who is so maltreated by her harsh, uncaring mother . . . My girls have tended to a lot of drama, and my youngest is especially good at being the Little Match Girl, so just not. getting. involved. with that can be hard. But as a general stance, I think it's really necessary.

I absolutely agree that routine helps. My children behave far better when they know what's going to happen next, because it happens next every day. That really helps with prayers, I find. I don't know how prayers are happening in your house, but it's been important to my children that they happen as a whole family affair -- Dad has to be there -- at least at night, and they prefer singing to speaking. This was especially true when they were little, though it's true even now. We chant the Our Father and the Salve Regina nightly, and we've had a rota of other simple things -- the Guardian Angel Prayer (sung to the tune of "Creator of the Stars of Night") has been a favorite, as has the Tallis Canon. Otherwise, we just keep it simple. With little children, focusing on the most simple of prayers -- Sign of the Cross, Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be -- is good. And I don't insist that they say them aloud, just that they are quiet while "we" pray. Eventually they join in.

Right now we're pegging our evening prayer to the end of dinnertime, before our teenagers get up and escape to their rooms or out of the house -- we say the Magnificat and sing something together. This seems preferable right now to hunting them down when the younger kids are ready to go to bed for a family prayer time.

Bedtime: we have a long history of bedtime resisters, and my most resistant ones are still night owls to this day. Again, it helps to have a consistent routine -- bath, prayers, story, bed, or whatever. I've tried to defuse arguments by not insisting on more than that the child stay in his/her room. A light can be on, some quiet playing or looking at books can happen. I'm not going to check every five minutes to see that they're in bed. But I'd better not see them downstairs in the kitchen. This is one of those habit-training things, I think -- it might be worth approaching it like potty training, with some small reward at the end of a week, say, of consistent staying-in-the-room. I don't like rewards as a disciplinary principle, but sometimes they make things happen that wouldn't happen otherwise. For instance, I'm about to go get my younger kids up to go to Mass, and they're going to do it cheerfully, because I told them we'd go to the coffee shop on our way home . . . In principle they just *should* get up cheerfully for 8 a.m. Mass, but in reality they don't, so pegging that to the anticipation of something pleasurable is about to make my morning far easier than it would have been . . .

So now I have go to go get them up so we can actually make it to Mass.

Good luck!

Sally

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3ringcircus
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Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 9:37am | IP Logged Quote 3ringcircus

I use 123 Magic too. It sounds like from what you're saying, "Start" behaviors is what you'll want to work on. Those are a little more complicated. In our house, I have boys that are very simplistic in their behavior and emotions, so I do "count them". For a more sensitive girl, you may want to work the process as written.

As an aside, we also talk about cooperation, especially when it comes to school time. We all need to be willing to do our part in order for the day to move along efficiently and w/ peace. It spills over into non-school aspects of the day as well. I love the idea of singing the prayers.

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MichelleW
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Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 3:07pm | IP Logged Quote MichelleW

Please picture us drinking coffee, sitting on the couch and laughing about this:

Well, it sounds like you are conflicted. You don't like the idea of obedience but want her to obey. She might be picking up on that ambivalence. Have you thought about why you dislike the word so much?

We tried to always have logical consequences pre-determined so that we all knew what to expect. Routines were really important, but also consistency. It doesn't really matter what system you use as long as there are no surprises for the kids in terms of discipline.

In your case, perhaps give her a choice--it is time for prayers, do you want to say them together or do you want me to listen while you pray?

Is the TV up too loud after she goes to bed? Perhaps she feels she is missing out on what is happening in the other room? Is she very imaginative? Is she scared of the dark? Is she in a place where she could handle and appreciate the added responsibility of turning her own light out at a certain time? For example, lights need to be turned off at 8pm (does she have a clock), if she is ready for bed by 7:45 she can look at picture books in bed until 8pm. Would that work for her? You could celebrate her growth--increased responsibility and privilege. The consequence for not turning out at 8 might be lights out earlier the next night with no reading? No need to count. 8pm is 8pm. Just brainstorming here...

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Bridget
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Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 3:39pm | IP Logged Quote Bridget

She is at a hard age. But obedience is a virtue that will serve her well her entire life. Don't cringe at it and don't associate it with yelling and spanking, embrace it as good thing! the saints on the virtue of obedience

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Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 3:54pm | IP Logged Quote JodieLyn

Remember to that like most virtues there can be too much of a good thing so don't be fooled into thinking that obedience is as bad a too much obedience.. you are wanting obedience because the request is reasonable and moral and you are an authority for your child. You're not asking your child to obey immoral orders or someone who has no legitimate authority.

As she grows you can teach her how to approach someone with authority to disagree or question the reasons.. so teaching obedience now doesn't mean she'll continue in blind obedience as she learns to reason for herself.. but you won't reason with a 3 yr old about bedtime. Bedtime is for parents so the only true response is "because I said so" and it's ok for parents to enforce rules that help them function.

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SallyT
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Posted: Aug 24 2013 at 12:16pm | IP Logged Quote SallyT

That point about obedience as a virtue is good and important, and something I don't think about enough. I have difficulty myself with discipline and authority, I know, because I reflexively associate those things with, for example, shaming of a child for not being the kind of good person who would just *know* how to do the right thing. My own (non-Catholic) background, too, is one of denigrating obedience -- especially in women - as a defining characteristic of oppressed or non-thinking people, and that, as well as the other stuff, is baggage I have to work around in dealing with my own children, and with myself.

All that to say that I saw myself in MichelleW's observation about conflictedness, and I think that point about ambivalence being communicated to children is right on the money. I've certainly experienced it in my own parenting. And I really relate to the attraction to Attachment Parenting and the fear of being somehow tyrannical, while at the same time having that innate sense that sometimes people should just do things because *I* know they're the right things to do.

Jodie is so right that bedtime, for instance, is a decision governed by parents, who have prudentially determined what's best for the functioning of the whole household. It's what's best for the child, who needs rest (though two of my four have always fought this, and we've just kind of had to work with what seems to be their body chemistry), but it's also important -- and right and just -- for parents to have some time together at the end of the day, when they don't have to pay attention to a child and are free to pay attention to each other.

In fact, in my own hierarchy of Important Things About Children's Bedtimes, the needs of the parents, ie my husband and me, have come to occupy a higher place than the needs of the children -- at least, the immediate needs of the children for rest. Yes, my kids need a good night's sleep, if they can possibly get it, but even more than that, they need for their parents to be happy together, and for that to happen, they really need to get out of our hair after nine-thirty or so (we're talking four kids, the youngest of whom is nine) so that we can talk to each other, pray Compline together, and maybe make love before we pass out from exhaustion. I have to say that we got a lot better about enforcing bedtimes together, as a couple, when we agreed that *that* was why we were doing it.

Actually, my discipline in general has improved as I've come to have a better sense of where the needs of the individual child might fall in balance with the overall needs of the family. Obedience, in a larger sense, is basically about understanding that there's something more important, and more urgent, and more authoritative, than the self (praying the Angelus reminds me of this daily), and a real touchstone for me when I'm uncertain is the question of whether or not I can let a particular child's need disrupt the (ideal!) harmony of the household. Knowing that the answer is no -- as in, am I really willing to let Child A's current dislike for saying prayers at the end of dinner cause us just not to say them? Well, no -- gives me some clarity and some backbone I might otherwise not have.

Sorry to ramble . . . I'm really just thinking aloud here.

Sally

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