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Kathryn
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| Posted: Jan 12 2012 at 12:44pm | IP Logged
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Weird question but I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong or viewing this wrong. I start out with nice reminders and then I find myself sooo angry at the end of these exchanges. My children have chores but here are frequent examples of how things go:
Me to DD 13 (today after lunch): The floor needs to be swept. (to dd 13 who knows that her job is to sweep the floor after we eat; I've told her it needs to be swept EVERY time we eat but rarely happens).
DD 13 reply: I just swept yesterday.
Me (irritated): Do you not SEE the dirt and crumbs on the floor?
DD 13: I just don't understand how it gets dirty so fast.
Me: I just stare back at her
Me to DS 11: The stairs need to be vacuumed.
DS 11: (Humph!) But they'll just get dirty again.
Me: Well, then you and your friends can quit going up and down them and they'll stay clean.
DS 11: grumble, mutter
Me to DD 4: Remember to put the napkins on the table.
DD 4 (in very whiny voice): But why do I always have to do the napkins?
All of this seems very disrespectful and challenging my authority. May be I read too many books from pioneer days when children didn't dare speak back to their parents but that's certainly how it is coming across to me. I'm really at my wit's end. Advice?!?!
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Kathryn in TX
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rcarter
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| Posted: Jan 12 2012 at 1:35pm | IP Logged
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Kathryn,
Your question reminded me of a section in one of Dr. Ray Guarendi's books, where he talked about children backtalking when they're told to do something. His solution was to give them a choice: "The floor needs to be swept OR (fill in the blank with your choice of consequence)." I've found this soooo helpful in a lot of areas of parenting, because it is like a mental reminder to ME that I need to hold my children accountable. Plus, they then know there's a consequence to not doing the given assignment. Also, he recommended that if the backtalk continues, parents might consider something like writing a 100 word essay. (For the older child, anyway.) And if the backtalk still continues, then you add another set amount of words for the essay for each instance. The hardest part of all this, for me, has always been following through on what I said the consequence would be. Sometimes I forget what I said, the instant it leaves my mouth  . So when I find myself getting into that pattern, I will either post rules with consequences for not obeying (largely as a visual reminder to me), or keep a small pocket notebook with me, and write down what I told to which person.
HTH!
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CrunchyMom
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Well, your children are older, so you might need a variation on this, but here we have a mantra "we obey right away with a happy heart."
I think you have every right to expect that your children not talk back disrespectfully when you ask them to do something. Rachel's advice sounds good, and I'm sure that some others who have older children can chime in on how to practically apply that to your 11 and 13 year old.
But even with my 3.5, 5.5, and 7.5 ds, I don't allow them to talk back. Dh backs me up. And I do what Rachel said OFTEN with my littlest one (who is apt to be whiney), "You may set the table or sit on the stairs." And, he usually gets tired of sitting on the stairs pretty quick and comes around. 
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Jan 12 2012 at 2:07pm | IP Logged
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Oh, I forgot! You might want to take a look at this active thread on chores 
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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kristinannie
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I just started a new thing in my house. I started using flylady so I made a list of my morning routine, break routine (we take a LONG break during the middle of the school day), my dinnertime routine and my nighttime routine. It has helped me so much. So...the kids and I made up their routines as well. I typed them on a nice colored sheet of cardstock and laminated it. They mark off when they do each one. It has REALLY lessened the whining. I also have a couple of blank lines on there for me to add extra chores as necessary. They just accept that those are their duties.
When we made the chart, I involved them. I asked them what they think they needed to do at each of those times. My son's job is to help unload the dishwasher so I asked him when he thought we should do that. He said that we always doing that during break so we put it there. It gave him some ownership. I had planned to reward compliance with the charts, but didn't have to. Of course, my kids are young and it is still a relatively new system so I can't make any longterm promises! I think we will review the chart and make a new one every January.
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Erin
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Kathryn
Do you have a written chart/list of jobs required? For some reason when I switched to written the arguing went down, it was like a switch in the head that their issue was no longer with me but the sheet. They couldn't argue with the sheet, weird I know. All I needed to say was, "Have you looked at your sheet? Completed your list?" well maybe not all  and yes, our experience was alot like Kristinannie's.
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jawgee
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| Well, your children are older, so you might need a variation on this, but here we have a mantra "we obey right away with a happy heart." |
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DH and I remind them to "obey right away, the happy way".
Kathryn, we use ChorePacks. Each child has a lanyard of the chores that are expected of them before they move on to something more desirable (computer, toys, games, TV). There's no negotiating. The chores on their pack are theirs. Sometimes, if they "forget" their job, DH or I will have to become Quality Control and start to check their chores after they say they're done (and, again, before they move on to another activity).
Those are my only suggestions. Truth be told, my 6YO is a master at his chores and my 10YO tries to find any way to get out of doing them.
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Monica
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SusanMc
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I'm only doing chores with my 4.5 yo right now but I find that setting an example helps. For instance, I'll say, "I going to start my morning chores by making my bed and unloading the dishwasher. Which chores are you going to start with?" He only has four chores (make bed, sort silverware, swifter floor, and wipe down bathroom counter) so I allow him to have some leeway on the order of things. It is always amazing to me how each day he'll choose different ones to start with. Just like me, I suppose.
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Donna Marie
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Does anyone have any really good ideas for essays to give 12-13yods for chores or schoolwork undone? I want it to be....special
Any takers??
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JodieLyn
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Yes, disengage.. when it's a battle with you it's something they think they might be able to win so they'll keep trying (even though it's never worked before).. a chart is a great way to take yourself out of the equation. But also you can disengage verbally like..
Quote:
Me to DD 13 (today after lunch): The floor needs to be swept. (to dd 13 who knows that her job is to sweep the floor after we eat; I've told her it needs to be swept EVERY time we eat but rarely happens).
DD 13 reply: I just swept yesterday.
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mom: don't forget the edges of the floor.
or
mom: yes you did
or
mom: yep and time to do it again
or
mom: that's the thing about everyday jobs, they happen every day. (said in a fun sympathetic way)
but then you walk away (go on with what you were doing) and leave her to it. Sometimes just acknowledging the feelings of frustration that the job doesn't stay done (don't we all feel like that at times?) will help and sometimes lightening the mood (like the last one) makes it easier to do the job.. but none of the responses are arguing back.. just a light comment.. when you argue back the child thinks they may argue and get out of it.. and children are like gambling addicts.. they don't have to win to keep trying.. and trying.. and trying.. ad infinitum. 
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JodieLyn
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Oh I'm sure the Psalms or Proverbs would have some verse/chapter (go to the ant..) that would be good for them to explain in an essay.. maybe the 10 commandments?
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Jodie, wife to Dave
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Erin
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JodieLyn wrote:
Yes, disengage.. when it's a battle with you it's something they think they might be able to win so they'll keep trying (even though it's never worked before).. a chart is a great way to take yourself out of the equation. But also you can disengage verbally like..
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I even say it at times, "I'm disengaging"  Helps me be the adult (I feel like a child sometimes if I 'engage' kwim?) and the children really know I mean it. Gives all a breather.
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MicheleQ
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JodieLyn wrote:
Yes, disengage.. when it's a battle with you it's something they think they might be able to win so they'll keep trying (even though it's never worked before).. a chart is a great way to take yourself out of the equation. But also you can disengage verbally like..
Quote:
Me to DD 13 (today after lunch): The floor needs to be swept. (to dd 13 who knows that her job is to sweep the floor after we eat; I've told her it needs to be swept EVERY time we eat but rarely happens).
DD 13 reply: I just swept yesterday.
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mom: don't forget the edges of the floor.
or
mom: yes you did
or
mom: yep and time to do it again
or
mom: that's the thing about everyday jobs, they happen every day. (said in a fun sympathetic way)
but then you walk away (go on with what you were doing) and leave her to it. Sometimes just acknowledging the feelings of frustration that the job doesn't stay done (don't we all feel like that at times?) will help and sometimes lightening the mood (like the last one) makes it easier to do the job.. but none of the responses are arguing back.. just a light comment.. when you argue back the child thinks they may argue and get out of it.. and children are like gambling addicts.. they don't have to win to keep trying.. and trying.. and trying.. ad infinitum. |
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I couldn't have said it better myself! Right now I have a 16 yr. old boy who makes it a habit of trying to argue every point. I have to disengage to stay sane. Interestingly he doesn't try and pull the arguing thing with dh nearly as much as he does with me. . . 
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Michele Quigley
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MichelleW
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That's funny Michele, my sons argue more with dh than with me. I think it is just personality. Dh is still trying to be as fair as possible, I am past that...
Basically, I told my kids that I am open to renegotiation of chores (or rule, etc.) *only* at an appropriate time. There is *no* negotiation and no explanation when something needs to be done. That is a waste of everyone's time. However, if the child wants to come and talk to me about a morning chore routine while I am making dinner, I am totally open to that. So far, my kids have never taken undue advantage of this. They usually come to me if they think they can streamline the process by approaching the task differently. Sometimes they want to know a reason behind a rule or a decision I made during the day, and they tend to leave satisfied. These are really great conversations that draw us closer together because neither one of us is upset and I know they have a serious question, and are not just trying to get out of obeying, because the timing is right.
I think a sense of humor helps (sometimes mine gets lost and then I know I need a break!). We have had the "it'll just get dirty conversation" once with each kid. I say something like: "I bet Olivia would appreciate it if we stopped eating off of plates since they just get dirty again, and Nick would love it if we just walked around in our birthday suits so that all that laundry wasn't just getting dirty again. Oh, this is gonna be great! I will just stop cooking since the pots will just get dirty again!" By then we are all laughing but this is a conversation that might happen at lunch, not during chore time.
When it is time for chores I remind any protesters that now is not the time. Obedience first. Anything else *looks* like slacking and if you want to be taken seriously you need to avoid the appearance of laziness.
So, what you describe looks to me like a "rut." You are stuck in a rut--a cycle of noncompliance that makes you crazy and probably isn't very fun for the kids either. The only way I know to break out of a rut is to mix things up--to implement a new plan that looks sort of different from the old plan so that everyone is energized to try the new way. We do this periodically when I feel that we have all acquired some bad habits.
It might be as simple as switching some chores around, or as complex as a completely new system. It has to be something that you can live with. I think natural consequences and natural rewards work best. In our house, the kids feed all the animals before they eat. If the fire isn't made in the morning we all freeze. If the dishes don't get put away first thing in the morning, then no one can care for their own dishes and the kitchen person has more work to do.
I don't know that any of this has helped, but we all hear ya. You aren't the only one that gets trapped in the argument zone...
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Michelle
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Aagot
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Kathryn,
I just read your post to my dh and we are both in tears laughing. Your description is so familiar. So take a little comfort in being in good company. I have found that writing it down makes a huge difference. I knew they had their chores memorized and got lazy about writing out the list. Then I had to nag, nag, nag. Their chores rotate every month. This gives them time to get good at everything and for slacking to show up and be dealt with and for them to have a change just as they get tired of doing the same old thing. Also chores come right before food. Chores before breakfast, lunch and dinner. They get pretty motivated. As for sweeping crumbs after meals... Well, we have a couple of dogs...they work for food too
As for reading too many pioneer books. I have this problem too. How in the world did they teach them not to talk back without killing them in the process? 
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Kathryn
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| Posted: Jan 13 2012 at 11:08pm | IP Logged
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Ohh...the word disengage again! Ohhh...some days are sooo much better than others. And I am a huge Dr. Ray fan. I've been blessed with many essays and sentences from my kiddos that are nicely tucked away for future reading pleasure.
What's happened is "chore" day had been set on Sat but betw. ballet and cub scouts and dad working or hunting, it's not been happening. Soo, I'll throw in a chore here or there during the week and that just throws them (esp. the vacuum the stairs thing which would typically be Sat.). It's almost like they're allergic to the word "chore" Sun-Fri.
I never have found a consistent system for any of us to be accountable on a daily basis. Usu. on Sat I would just write the list and they would do it with no questions. It's the day-to-day things that seem to be at issue.
Plus, I do think we need to switch up the chores. May be we are in a rut. That's prob. a great idea. It's just with the 2 big kids, they pretty much do "their" job that they're good at. I guess it's time to train the other one for alternate chores.
I know my boy would just as soon live on a farm and be outside doing chores but we just don't have that so I try to give him the things I know he enjoys. He usu. enjoys vacuuming actually.
Also, I still think ultimately I am looking for obedience first but getting myself disengaged and not getting upset is my challenge. In response to "it'll just get dirty again" I DO want to say (and have a time or two) said "well, I'm pretty sure you want to EAT AGAIN! Like 3 or MORE times today!"
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Kathryn in TX
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Topic: Am I just dispensing chores wrong?
