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kristinannie
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I have just spent about an hour looking up all the old posts I could find on Bravewriter, but I still have a few questions. What age do you start teaching writing? I know my kids are little now, but I would love to immerse myself in a system so I can implement it when it feels right.
Some basic info: I was an English Lit major in college. I am an excellent writer. I do struggle a little with grammar and punctuation (I never learned grammar in school), but I am a very good writer. I truly think that I educated myself through CM because I was an avid reader of living books as a child and teenager. Writing flows very naturally to me and I rarely do much editing.
So...I sort of feel like I am capable of dealing with writing on my own and am reluctant to spend $97 on Bravewriter. That said, my kids might not be natural writers. My son is already a perfectionist. I can see already that he has the potential to be a reluctant writer (although I know things can change).
For right now, I am planning on doing copywork and moving into dictation when he is ready. I would love to hear more about Bravewriter and how it works. I know it is a philosophy and a lifestyle and that really appeals to me. I would rather get a body of information and implement it in a way that works for my family (which is the main reason I am reluctant to buy something like IEW even though I LOVE Pudewa). Sorry to ramble!
Also, can anyone explain Arrow, Boomerang, etc. to me?
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Mackfam
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I'm a fan of Bravewriter, and I would consider myself a writer. Is it necessary? Strictly speaking, no. But I would buy it again because it's a great guide and body of information and the instruction builds on CM methods. It doesn't contradict CM methods in any way - in fact, one of the strengths of the book to me is the emphasis placed on the child finding their own "writer's voice", and writing on topics about which they know something (which is, in essence, a written narration!!!).
If you've read the past threads here, you've likely found a voluminous amount of information about Bravewriter. It's a good program, and to be fair, it probably isn't for everyone. Some children really, really benefit from the structure provided by Pudewa in the IEW program, which IS a very good writing program, by the way. I really do like emphasizing the strengths of various programs, and IEW works and works well for families that need structure, clear expectations, formulas, and a lot of guidance. Bravewriter will work well for a family that enjoys writing as a passion, writing about topics they know well, has been narrating books as a precursor to writing, enjoys less restriction in expressing thoughts, but is in need of guidance when it comes to putting it all together in a more formal package (like an essay). In short, Bravewriter will appeal to most writers, AND most children that read a lot of literature (CM students) are natural writers. At least that is my experience - expose children to numerous and varied worthy books (unencumbered by unnecessary book reports which drain the joy out of reading a good book) and they will naturally write as an extension of narrating. It's the polish they need a little help with, and as parents, we usually need some tools to be effective and positive writing coaches. That's where Bravewriter comes in.
It is not something you'd follow like a set of lesson plans, it's a book that YOU will sit down with, take lots of notes, revisit notes, and revisit the book and implement ideas from. It empowers the parent to be a writing coach. I think it's probably best read when you have a 4th/5th grader because it's right around that time that a child begins to really write on their own (different for each child though!!! My daughter is a prolific writer and we didn't start any formal writing until around 6th/7th grade!!!) It will give you confidence and tools to tackle writing in your home in natural ways - through your narrations, through Free Writes, through more formal writing projects when students are old enough. The ideas foster a child developing a very personal joy in writing, one that comes from a natural, inborn desire to want to express ones self. I remember really appreciating the breakdown of the stages of a writer, and the help in recognizing where your child is, and what they should be doing now, as well as the writing that they'll be moving toward next.
It's a great resource to have on your shelf, but it IS pricey! Are you a member of Homeschool Buyers Co-Op? It costs nothing to join, and it's so worth it! I think they carry Bravewriter on sale about once a year, and it's a marked discount from the normal price. It is a pdf file I think, so you'd have to be willing to download and print, but it's a good option. You might also email your local homeschool group and ask if anyone has a copy they might let you borrow. That's a good way to get a feel for it. I've seen it offered for sale here every now and then, too!
kristinannie wrote:
| Also, can anyone explain Arrow, Boomerang, etc. to me? |
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Yes. They are literature guides for a novel/piece of literature. I don't use them, but if you have trouble choosing dictation selections from the literature being read, or would benefit from a literature guide to help you make sense of a piece of literature, then these guides would probably be helpful to you. The name corresponds to an age appropriate grouping of literature selections. Arrow is for 3rd-6th grade, Boomerang for 7th-9th grade, and there is another, Slingshot for 10th-12th graders. There are sample issues available to download on the Bravewriter site.
Hope that gives you a feel for the program!
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Betsy
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Jen summed the program up beautifully! 
I purchased this when my kids were young...to young. My oldest is in 5th grade this year and I *think* I might start using it next year or in earnest when he is in 7th grade.
CM has opinions about when children should begin creative writing, and it's much later than what is currently taught.
We are doing copy work and dictation right now. We will begin to write out one narration per week the second half of this year to prime the pump for more writing.
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kristinannie
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Well, this sounds like the program for me. I think I have time to wait and find someone selling it though!!! That's always good to know! Does the program also work well if your child is not a natural writer? I know my oldest two can do really well with narrations (even though they are so young that I don't require narrations...they still want to do them). I think they will also be natural writers, but you can never be sure!
I definitely believe that our read alouds have increased their vocabulary and also the way in which they speak. Just a few months of reading living books and even my 4 year old speaks so well. I love CM!
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SeaStar
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I am slowly reading through Creative Communications
which I am finding enormously helpful. The author gives many ideas for incorporating writing naturally into the learning day... I think it is very kid-friendly and works with a Charlotte Mason approach.
I also like the way the author gives solid responses to questions that kids ask, such as: why do I have to learn all this grammar? who cares?
I am curious to know how this book might compare with Bravewriter, if anyone has used both. I am trying to gently transition my ds into the idea of writing more, but I don't want things like book reports, etc to turn him off the fun of writing.
ETA: Creative Communications gives many ideas for fostering a love of of writing in young children, even those who can only write a letter or two of the alphabet, which is nice
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kristinannie wrote:
| Does the program also work well if your child is not a natural writer? |
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Well, I think so, but I'm pretty biased in terms of how to teach writing. I think the Bravewriter ideas, and especially The Writer's Jungle, is ideally suited for the unmotivated writer. And I think this because of the general approach and emphasis on writing as a form of communicating oneself. The program can start working at any age and lends itself to remediating very well, and I believe this is because the ideas are living and whole, much like a truly living book will be enjoyed whether someone is 5 or 15 or 45. If you are used to other writing programs though, you will find this approach a total paradigm shift. There are so many intuitive, fantastic ideas shared for writing that when I first read it I was relieved and excited all at once. Ideas are purposeful and whole - not an academic exercise to be checked off.
While I do recommend the book, I don't recommend purchasing it until kids are of an older age because there is much time for development, for the children to express gifts, strengths, weaknesses and all of these should factor into any discernment when you get to the stage of writing and you're considering a tool/resource to assist you and your children.
And, it's probably important to mention here that CM was adamant and clear about NOT teaching writing as a formal subject until students were in upper (high school) forms. It simply wasn't necessary. Students read widely and narrated much. This was their foundation. Writing was a natural extension of that. Sometimes I wonder if today, we don't overthink how to approach writing. But that's just something I ponder, not necessarily an observation!
While copywork and dictation do make use of the skill of writing, it is NARRATION that lays the groundwork for good writing. And if your children are reading worthy books and narrating them, that is exactly ALL that is needed for writing preparation. Then, around age 10, once writing as a skill is in hand, they may begin writing their narrations, but they are STILL SIMPLE NARRATIONS. (It is at this point I find Bravewriter/The Writer's Jungle to be helpful.) I was nervous about following this idea through with my first child....as other homeschoolers were churning out book reports galore. But, here was my daughter, who was overjoyed to read a book and then tell me about it. She delighted in her expression. I observed that others were dragging their children through paper after paper, book report after book report. I chose to take a different route, and it has proven to be a joyous one. As my dd matured, she naturally wanted to express herself in the written word, and writing is as it should be, a simple extension of her ability to communicate.
So...while I DO think Bravewriter is a good program, I really appreciate allowing a child to build those skills of organizing and expressing thoughts through narrations and I see great fruit in allowing that to become a firmly-in-place and easily exercised skill before requiring more formal writing projects.
SeaStar wrote:
| I am curious to know how this book might compare with Bravewriter, if anyone has used both. I am trying to gently transition my ds into the idea of writing more, but I don't want things like book reports, etc to turn him off the fun of writing. |
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I've used both, and I confess that I didn't find Creative Communications to be as useful for us as it sounds like you're finding it. I remember that most of the ideas seemed familiar to me, so it's not that they weren't good ideas at all. I actually passed the book along to another homeschooler so I can't look at mine to see specifics and compare for you.
In terms of usefulness, I found Bravewriter to be more foundational for me, and I felt like it gave me a set of PRACTICAL and useful tools I could easily and naturally integrate into days. It helped me understand writing more and relax where needed and coach where needed! It's just more expansive and in depth in terms of its approach, as opposed to a resource like Creative Communications. Though it's a long read, it was useful because in the end it was simple and intuitive in terms of the way we already approached language arts. I wasn't adding something else in, the ideas in Bravewriter were tools that seemed like a natural extension of what we were already doing, which was, very simply, written narrations.
I really dislike weighting a review of one tool over another because I do believe that the generous choice of tools means we can carefully discern what's best for our families. Having said that, for the amount of money invested, and in retrospect, I find that I really appreciate the investment in Bravewriter. It has proven itself to be useful from stage to stage, year after year on my shelf, and that is a sign of a worthwhile resource to me! The ideas are appropriate in terms of their emphasis on writing, when to begin, how to begin (without overwhelming or presenting dry, stale formulas), presenting creative/unique/exciting ideas for the beginning and transitioning writer (and each writer transitions from stage to stage and this was SOOOO helpful to read about, and especially helpful for me were the practical writing ideas for transitioning writers!!!!)...AND...the ideas and tools cover more depth taking a mom/writing coach from beginning writing all the way through high school level essays.
So, that's my take on Bravewriter as a guide for a mom, Melinda. I hope it helps you consider it as a resource in light of your use of Creative Communications, which you consider to be a useful resource on your shelf.
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And, if you'll indulge me, I wanted to recommend another *THING*/*TOOL* for y'all to consider....especially in light of the fact that both Kristin and Melinda are approaching writing with young writers.
I thought I'd mention again (I know I've mentioned this resource before here), how much we continue to delight in Story Starters by Karen Andreola. If you're looking for something to assist you and bolster your understanding of CM language arts as it applies to writing, Karen's simple explanations and helps at the beginning of the book are detailed and helpful without being overwhelming or intimidating. The "story starters" themselves simply prompt finishing a story, which is basically creative writing. The book can be used by littles or biggers by simply adjusting how the story is completed. My little fella (7yo/2nd grade) finishes the story orally, while my older two children write their stories. It's an easy exercise to add to the week (we do it once a week) which can be done with all the children, regardless of age, and begins to stir the imaginations of children. Some children naturally enjoy expressing their imagination, others may not delight in this kind of writing, so do keep that in mind when considering this resource. The story prompts are charming and exciting! My boys and girls love them! I review Story Starters in more detail here.
Ok...I'll stop blabbing about one of my FAVORITE subjects in the whole world!!! 
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SuzanneG
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Chiming in here with a quick thought....
I read/skimmed through WRITER's JUNGLE about a year ago and enjoyed it very much. I think reading it a year earlier would've been helpful....so that would've been 2 years BEFORE you would actually START "formal writing" ala CM. It really does help you to RELAX about delaying the formal writing process. The Writer's Jungle helps you to look at narrating, dictation, copywork in the grand scheme of things....which I LOVE, of course!
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kristinannie
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Mackfam wrote:
[quote=kristinannie]
And, it's probably important to mention here that CM was adamant and clear about NOT teaching writing as a formal subject until students were in upper (high school) forms. It simply wasn't necessary. Students read widely and narrated much. This was their foundation. Writing was a natural extension of that. Sometimes I wonder if today, we don't overthink how to approach writing. But that's just something I ponder, not necessarily an observation!
...
I was nervous about following this idea through with my first child....as other homeschoolers were churning out book reports galore. But, here was my daughter, who was overjoyed to read a book and then tell me about it. She delighted in her expression. I observed that others were dragging their children through paper after paper, book report after book report. I chose to take a different route, and it has proven to be a joyous one. As my dd matured, she naturally wanted to express herself in the written word, and writing is as it should be, a simple extension of her ability to communicate.
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This is exactly what I need to hear...thanks! Honestly, CM is so natural and it just seems too simple and easy sometimes. You hear all these homeschoolers talking about writing programs for first graders and up and discussing the volumes of writing that their young children are producing. I have always enjoyed writing. I started writing stories and poems in late elementary school. I will never stop one of my kids from writing, but I also think a lot of damage can be done if you force them into writing too early. They can feel inadequate and end up always hating writing or look at it is a chore.
I know I just need to step back and let myself believe in CM's ideas. There are so many leaps of faith in CM. It seems more responsible somehow to just go ahead and get all the workbooks and make sure that your children are exposed to all of this information. That is exactly the kind of education I was hoping to avoid by homeschooling though. Since I first started researching homeschooling, I fell in love with the simplicity and the lifestyle of CM. The reading aloud as a family, the discussions, the joy of learning, the nature study, etc...
I always said that the one area that I wouldn't follow CM was language arts. Don't we all need phonics workbooks, weekly writing assignments and questions to determine whether a child really understands the reading? After a few months of reading living books with my kids, I have faith that they are understanding and really internalizing the books we read. When we read Stuart Little a couple of months ago, my kids would constantly talk about it at dinnertime with Daddy. They still bring up that book a lot. I read the kids a story about St. Francis a couple of days ago while they were coloring. I honestly didn't know if anyone was listening and I didn't ask for a narration (I only usually ask them for a narration in science or history and I just ask them what they learned....they can answer or not...whatever! They usually have LOTS to say though!) Anyway, I just read it to them. Today, we were looking out the front window at the birds hopping around in the snow. My 5 year old said, "Is that birth bath outside a statue of St. Francis? That is such a good idea since he loved birds. Remember when you read us that story and he was giving a sermon to the birds?" If we would have read the story and completed discussion questions, my son would have probably seen it all as a chore and forgotten the story as soon as we were done. Either that or he would have spent the entire time trying to listen for the things he thought I would ask about instead of really just listening to the story for pure pleasure and delight.
Honestly, thanks for giving me the confirmation that I can just relax and let CM unfold as it naturally should. Of course, if we realize later that one or more of the kids is not responding to these methods, we can always make a change. For now, I can just breathe a sigh of relief and relax!
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kristinannie
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Mackfam wrote:
[quote=kristinannie]
I thought I'd mention again (I know I've mentioned this resource before here), how much we continue to delight in Story Starters by Karen Andreola. |
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I just looked at this! WOW! I love it!
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SuzanneG wrote:
Chiming in here with a quick thought....
I read/skimmed through WRITER's JUNGLE about a year ago and enjoyed it very much. I think reading it a year earlier would've been helpful....so that would've been 2 years BEFORE you would actually START "formal writing" ala CM. It really does help you to RELAX about delaying the formal writing process. The Writer's Jungle helps you to look at narrating, dictation, copywork in the grand scheme of things....which I LOVE, of course! |
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Just clarifying.....when I say "formal writing process" I meant requiring a written narration occasionally....not even correcting it or anything.....that's the beginning of a "formal writing process" to me.
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SallyT
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Well, the way I've explained writing to (college) students in a classroom setting is that it's thinking on paper. It's hard to write well if you haven't learned to think. Of course, it's also hard to write well if you haven't absorbed good written English all your life -- my college composition students used to make what to me were the weirdest mistakes, using phrases like "once upon *the* time," which made me think that they had had only the most glancing of relationships with the written word for most of their lives. It was like they knew that a phrase like this existed, and they sort of knew how it was supposed to go, but not really . . .
So I think that's the essential foundation to lay: learning to think *and* nurturing an ear for the written word. It seems to have worked for my kids, anyway. My 14-year-old son had read widely and done lots of copywork from early on, but had been a very reluctant independent writer; at 12 or 13 he suddenly kind of blossomed, and was producing brief but very sophisticated pieces of writing. This year, in 8th grade, I'm having him do the One-Year Adventure Novel program, which he's thoroughly enjoying, and which I think will really help with learning to sustain a longer project, not to mention beginning to consider structure in writing.
This, to me, seems the best possible foundation for more formal writing in high school, not least because the greatest problem most people seem to have is not being able to produce enough writing to work with. The students who struggle most with formal expository writing are the ones who strain to churn out a sentence, because they can't think in writing. The easiest students to teach to write well are the ones who have a lot of fluency between the mind and the writing hand, which seems to be a function of being readers (maybe the connection is that they're used to seeing thought represented in written language, as opposed to watching people talk on television . . . ). A kid who can pour out even a lot of disconnected thoughts will have an easier time writing a term paper, because once the thoughts are poured out, you can arrange and organize and shape them into something, and that's far, far easier and more pleasant, from the teaching point of view, than trying to get somebody to think of something to say.
So while we're not pure CM-ers at our house, I do think that language arts is where her ideas really apply (not that they don't apply across the board -- I just see them as really speaking to my own observations in this area).
That said, as a writer myself, I find it harder to teach writing to my own kids because it is so intuitive to me. We haven't used anything formal, beyond reading, copywork, and some CM-ish grammar (we love Grammar-land), until late elementary at the earliest. We've actually enjoyed some sentence diagramming, too, with Mary Daly's Ye Hedge School books. As the kids have stretched out as writers in middle school, I try to provide opportunities for more sustained (but still not "formal") writing: my now-college student invented her own writing opportunities via novels plus a play she wrote for our children's community theatre, while I'm doing OYAN to fill that same place for my 14yo. Then in ninth grade we start working on actual essays, using (and adapting) Jensen's Format Writing, which is not exciting but gives me a shape to work with. Left to my own devices, I'd say, "Just . . . do it . . . ," with no real sense of the process by which someone at that stage would . . . just . . . do it. (which is weird because I've taught writing in many settings to people who aren't my own children; it's been over time that I've realized that this is actually really, really hard to do, and that I'm probably a much better math teacher).
For what it's worth, though I've used neither, I'd be far more attracted to BraveWriter than IEW, which -- in my limited exposure to it -- I really don't like at all. And I love what somebody said about being encouraged to relax at this early stage and simply enjoy the written word. That seems right to me.
Sally
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Marcia
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We are just formally using the Writers Jungle for the past six months (once a week). My kids that are using it are 5th grade and 7th grade.
I do use IEW for the poetry! It's great to listen to...on our poetry day. Otherwise I think IEW is just over the top for littles. Perhaps for highschool it makes sense. But not gentle enough for me. :)
If you ever have a chance to listen to Julie Bogart speak, GO! I was so inspired by her and felt like we could accomplish anything.
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kristinannie
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Sally, thanks so much for taking the time to write out your thoughts. I feel very similiar to you in that I am worried about teaching writing because I am such a natural writer. I did learn in a very CM way (on my own) and when I went to college, I realized that no one had actually taught me how to write a really coherent essay. I actually had a professor freshman year that was able to really teach me the format and the basics and since I was already able to write (in the way you stated) it wasn't too difficult to learn quickly. I would like my kids to develop on their own and then have some way to teach them those basics before they get to college!
Marcia, do you know if Julie Bogart has any MP3's I could download?
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SeaStar
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Bravewriter
is available as a digital pdf right now for $39.50 at the homeschool buyers coop.
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Thanks! I just got it!
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Bravewriter questions
