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kbfsc
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 2:43pm | IP Logged
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Hi friends,
Oh, my. This child is challenging me right now! I'm hoping for some perspective from you all wise mamas.
Here's a summary for you: He is ultra-persistent, so when he gets a bee in his bonnet, it's very difficult to distract him. I try to "look for the yes" as much as I can, but sometimes the answer has to be no! He is very physical, so when he's loving, he is very sweet and affectionate - but when he's mad, he punches and kicks. He is also feeling very left out or not-as-good-as right now, I think, by his older sibs, some friends and cousins - and often feels like the youngest, the one that can't yet read, etc.
The difficulties arise for us when he becomes angry or hurt and begins screaming and punching. I can't stop it! When he was younger and smaller I could intervene physically and move him elsewhere. But now when he is triggered by another child or a no from me, he punches or kicks me. When I correct that behavior things escalate. He is disrespectful, uses terrible, banned words in quick succession, is destructive... He won't go into timeout, spankings don't seem to help much (and just make me feel awful), the loss of privileges doesn't seem to make a dent, and washing his mouth out with soap doesn't stop the language. I have tried to be calm and consistent, all to no avail it seems.
Today, after a mighty explosion I denied knowing him and said that when my sweet son returned, I would be able to feed him and care for his other needs - but this unkind, out-of-control little boy isn't my son and so I wouldn't be able to feed or even acknowledge him. Extreme. The trouble began with him screaming at his cousin, snatching a toy and throwing it across the room. When the older brother tried to help, the little one punched him. When I tried to move him to time out, he punched me. He threw the couch cushions around the room and kicked toys into the wall. Of course all the while he is shouting, "Mommy, you're stupid! I hate this family!" Eventually I spanked him - it was all too much! - but I feel like that wasn't effective because he still wouldn't go to time out, was ugly to his cousin as he left, and refused to clean up the messes he made. An hour later, he was finally allowed to eat lunch after cleaning up and calling his cousin to apologize.
So here's the crux of my long-winded question: where do I start? At the end of it all he will be truly sorry and collapse in a heap in my lap. So I know this is a dear, out-of-control little boy. But how do I stop it and help him?? Help!
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Kiera
happy mama of ds '02, dd '03, ds '06, dd '09 and little ones in heaven
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Kathryn
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 3:43pm | IP Logged
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Oh dear! You have your hands very full with him!  I guess from listening to Dr. Ray so long he would say to find SOMETHING...whatever works and STICK TO IT. Don't keep trying varying methods. This will allow you to be more consistent and less "in the moment" and losing your footing and getting frustrated, angry etc.
I know when my own DS used to be so very difficult I would switch from one discipline method to another trying to get the behavior to STOP. Really, it seems I can only curtail the behavior because he just tends to wear his emotions close to the cuff (like me  ). We've been through a litany of discipline attempts as well. At 11 1/2 he is *finally* less reactive. We've also attempted time-outs in corner and bed, spanking, screaming, soap, writing sentences, scrubbing baseboards etc. What has finally, finally seemed to work and allowed me to be consistent is making him do something physical. It could be jumping jacks, running up/down stairs, running a few laps in the neighborhood, hauling dirt in a wagon back/forth from front yard to backyard (who cares if it NEEDS to be done), digging a trench, sweeping garage etc. It allows him to be alone, decompress, removes me from being face-to-face with him (although I'm still close by) and he is ***always*** better afterward.
Here's a for example though: Say I've told him no and he doesn't respond appropriately I say "how about 10 jumping jacks (or 3 laps)?" he keeps up, "now you have 20 jumping jacks (or 6 laps)", he keeps up, "now you have 30 jumping jacks (or 9 laps)". You get the point that I don't say anything else or argue etc. I just keep adding consequences until HE stops. And you are right on that he gets ZERO privileges (like lunch) until the consequence is completed.
I would suggest sitting down with him when he's calm and discussing what future consequences there will be for such out of control behavior so that next time it happens, you are ready and he knows what's going to happen.
Also, Dr. Ray does advise telling the child that you can't do any "special" things for them...make their favorite lunch, read a bedtime story together etc. because relationships work two ways and what he is doing is very hurtful to the mother/son relationship as well as to everyone else he says things too.
I know these ladies with more experience can also offer some great advice. This is just a little piece from my world. Hope to helps. Prayers for you both.
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Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
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SeaStar
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 3:47pm | IP Logged
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Kiera-
If you haven't already looked at Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, I can't recommend it highly enough.
She gives many strategies for coping with extra-persistent children as well as strategies for diffusing tantrums.
It sounds like he has certain triggers that are pushing him over the edge, and at five, he doesn't know what to do with these feelings. You can help him by identifying those triggers and giving him "escape routes'" or coping mechanisms.
Most tantrums really do come when a child reaches his limit: For example, a child on the floor of the grocery store screaming for a candy bar probably doesn't even really want the candy bar. That child might have reached his limits: he's tired, he's hungry, this is the third stop today on the way home, the store is crowded and noisy, and it is all too much for him.
A child screaming in a group and behaving badly might be an introvert who has been overwhelmed by too many people around and too much noise and commotion for too long. That child needs a quiet place of his own to get away when he starts to feel edgy. You might have to watch a five year old carefully and help him figure out when it's time to retreat for a while and calm down and recharge- plus get to him before he blows.
The book is full of wonderful, helpful ideas.
The author also wrote a second book: Kids, Parents and Power Struggles.
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 4:17pm | IP Logged
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What Melinda said. That book saved my life. I can't recommend it highly enough!
Boys that age can be so very angry and physical, can't they?
Sometimes the best thing you can provide is a safe place where your son CAN scream and kick things...both to let off steam and to start to understand that he can't get what he wants by kicking and screaming in any other place.
You can also give him words to use ("I feel mad inside!") and help him, in quiet moments, to visualize his temper as a volcano that will destroy things if it erupts explosively, but can instead learn to flow gently through channels (permitted activities, like pounding clay or kicking a ball outside). He doesn't have to explode with rage. He just doesn't know how not to.
He doesn't have enough words to describe how he feels...perhaps you can help him find some more by reading story books (Berenstain Bears, Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day, etc.).
It's important to do three things...1) Reassure him that he IS your son and you will always love him, even if you don't always love what he does. He really needs to hear this from you every day as you work on his behavior together; 2) Step back and see if there might have been a recent event that caused him to feel especially sad or angry - Dad going on TAD or working extra shifts, friends moving away, worry about a relative - it could be anything, but there might be an issue he needs to talk about, and 3) Make sure your relatives and friends understand that you ARE working with him on this and they HAVE to avoid criticizing him or you and let you handle it. He's young, but he isn't deaf, and he may be beating himself up inside over negative comments he hears.
I know exactly how you feel right now. It will get better if you and your husband work together to stay consistent (as stated above) and positive. It will take a long time, but it will get better. My son is still a very, very intense person, but he stopped throwing cushions and kicking furniture a long time ago.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Willa
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 6:37pm | IP Logged
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Hi Kiera,
I think you are so right in understanding that you have a sweet boy that is dealing with something he hasn't learned to manage yet. As you said it's a difficult age especially when you are a younger and everyone else is ahead of you in so many ways. Perhaps he is just about to make a developmental leap == sometimes boys seem to get out of balance emotionally just before or during a surge forward physically or intellectually.
Tantrums are both scary and somewhat gratifying for a child -- because in a certain way it feels like a release to just completely let go of control, but in another way it's very frightening to know something has taken over one's will like that.
When the adults seem angry or uncertain it just adds to the feeling of being out of control, because to the kid it seems that the tantrum is even controlling the other people around him. I found that out by personal experience. It seems to me that the idea is to help the child regulate and so calm firmness is far more important than a bunch of punitive consequences.
When your son is over his tantrum he is a different person, loving and repentant. He may see the fairness in accepting lots of consequences for what he did while out of control but at the same time I really doubt if they help him much in avoiding the problem in future. It seems that it would be more likely to add to his feeling of stress as his control slips. ... I've already burned my boat, so I might as well let go now!
For this reason it seems prevention is really important, as Melinda said -- figuring out coping strategies and being careful in situations that seem to be triggers.
When my youngest used to have tantrums I would simply carry him to the nearest room and sit with him until he got it out of his system. My main concern was that he didn't get to control the situation with his temper -- that his siblings should be allowed to go on with their lives and he could only rejoin normal life when he was calm. I also wanted to help him learn to regain his calm. I used to wrap him in a blanket or in my arms and just hold him or rub his back until he was calmer.
It's harder for you because he is violent towards you. Still, it seems that a five year old is still pretty young and it will get harder as he gets older. I'd rather carry a hitting 5 year old to his room and stay with him until he is calm than have to deal with an 8 year old who is still violent and using bad language.
It seems to me that hitting you is the worst of his transgressions. I wonder if you could specifically target this behavior -- in other words, make him understand that you want to help him deal with his rage but that hitting Mom is just not done. It isn't much good saying this while he is in the tantrum but afterwards you could really be serious about that part of it and save the disciplinary consequences for that particular transgression.
For example, my cognitively delayed 12 year old has occasional meltdowns. When he was younger he would hurt his siblings (pinch or bite) when he was angry. As he got older he learned not to hurt others, but then he would scream really loudly and slam doors. Slowly we've worked on the most extreme behavior one issue at a time. So first we worked on the physical stuff, when he was younger, then more recently on the slamming doors and screaming. He still has the meltdowns and I wish I knew how to avoid them altogether, but they are on a milder level. And I know now that he can control his behavior to some extent even when he's very upset, which is reassuring for the future. His older siblings, some of whom are quite intense, have learned pretty good coping strategies for when they are in a rage.
To me it seems to be important to be firm, calm and non-reactive while a tantrum is going on, and make sure the impact of the rage upon others is minimized as much as possible. That way the situation is regulated and the tantrum loses some of its impact so it isn't as fearful and satisfying to the child. And it isn't so hard on the bystanders either.
Then when the child is calmer, talk it over and reassure him of your love and support and let him know you are there to help him figure out better ways to express how he feels.
I wonder if his siblings are sometimes provoking him unnecessarily -- by rubbing in what he can't do, or bossing him around, or whatever -- as Nancy said, sometimes helpful to step back and look at the bigger picture of what is triggering the meltdowns.
Just a few thoughts!
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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MNMommy
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 7:11pm | IP Logged
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I don't know if this will help, but I had similar issues with my current 5yo. He always seemed the odd one out and always seemed to be the one who couldn't get along, couldn't play nicely, etc.
In hindsight, he does think differently than the rest of the family and he wasn't able to communicate with us. He would get soooo frustrated trying to communicate. His older sibs and parents weren't truly listening to him and helping him resolve his problems. Added to those frustrations was that he was always the youngest and he just.couldn't.keep.up, and he didn't know how to tell us when his frustrations started escalating over being left behind.
He started turning around when I realized that he was in the right from his viewpoint, and I started being a communication bridge for him. As soon as he started getting frustrated, I would jump in, listen to him, decode his thoughts, and communicate for him. The other big plus for him is that my current 3yo matured enough that they are able to play together. He doesn't have to always try to keep up with the older two. He can take a break and be the big kid with his little sis.
We are about a year past the worst of it now, and we all understand him better. His relationship with his sibs and us has never been better.
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Jennifer
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kbfsc
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 7:47pm | IP Logged
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I'm grateful for your responses, ladies!
I read Raising Your Spirited Child two years ago with my older son in mind, and our home is a different, better place as a result. Hooray for the reminder! - and to read it particularly with this persistence in mind. It's a wonderful resource. The concepts of identifying triggers and helping my son cope with his intensity make good sense to me. Now I need the practical help in the moment - so we don't all get carried away in the emotion.
Willa, your comments about calm firmness instead of a bunch of punitive consequences feels right to me. Using the analogy of a bank account, I have felt like this journey with my son has been one of many more withdrawals than deposits - and am very saddened by that.
Interestingly, after today's massive meltdown, I heard a very encouraging song on our Christian radio station - it felt like a little kiss from Jesus, reminding me that He is with us and all will be well. It's tempting to fall into the pit of discouragement and failure! Thank God for the big picture and for hope. I pray for help in the details and, as I said, in the moment, because that is where I feel overwhelmed. This boy is too precious for mommy not to carefully tend to his heart and his formation.
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Kiera
happy mama of ds '02, dd '03, ds '06, dd '09 and little ones in heaven
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Kathryn
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 10:08pm | IP Logged
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See, I knew everyone would have great advice! I did get to thinking that my advice does come from the perspective of an 11 year old boy now...not a 5 year old. Also, I will say the consequences aren't given in the face of such extreme tantrums as you explained. My son has mellowed very much since age 5 so def. what I do now most likely would not have worked 6 years ago.
Continued prayers as you seek ways to help him. I just know what it's like to have one child seem so disruptive to the entire household.
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Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
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kbfsc
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| Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 10:32pm | IP Logged
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You know what's crazy? As I reflect on the temperments of my children, this one is actually the most easy-going and compliant! Five is, I guess, an emotional, in-between age that can be a real challenge. (It has been for my olders, too.) My husband and I are both fairly intense people, so why would we expect anything other than tightly-wound, powerful personalities for our children? He calls the children "the Thundering Herd"! That's good for a laugh! But really, I try to recall that their powerful personalities are, in truth, great gifts. No accident. My prayer is that they will become who they are, as JPII would say, and use their dynamic personalities to transform the world.  Sorry - mommy waxing a bit poetic... and overtired!  Now, if I can just become who I am, and be the mommy they need...
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Kiera
happy mama of ds '02, dd '03, ds '06, dd '09 and little ones in heaven
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Angie Mc
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You are the mommy they need! God chose you perfectly, but you don't need to be perfect  . I remember when my most easy going child turned 5...we were  to realize that he did indeed have strong feelings, intensity, and persistence! So, yes indeed, he's one of us. Five is a big transition. Praying for you.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Dec 23 2011 at 7:14am | IP Logged
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Kiera,
I'm going to gently and understandingly nod my head in agreement at all that has been shared. You are not alone in dealing with escalating tantrums, meltdowns and physical acting out with 4-5 yo children. Some easy-going children can be intense, and some children are strong-willed naturally so I think as parents we all face this with children as they grown and develop. And by the way, this type of behavior is not restricted to or specialized by boys! This age in particular must be one that is a bit of a watershed for a child. It certainly has been in my home, and in talking to many other mothers, it is this age in particular that mothers see this from their children. I'm not suggesting that there may not be other triggers that need to be considered, just that all things could be normal(ish) and this could still be going on. All that is to say to you that we're all in this together, you're not alone, and your sweet son isn't the only little fella that has done this! My most compliant, easy-going child threw physical, out of character, screaming fits at this age. It really threw me for a loop!! I wanted to give you some practical suggestions for *in the moment*:
Just before the moment:
** If you hear a situation involving this little fella escalating, step in and as Nancy said, help him by giving him words to use to convey how he's feeling.
** Remove him from a situation before he has a chance to react and explode. You can: put him by your side and do your best to fill his love tank, or send him somewhere else to play, preferably somewhere he can be physical and get some of his energy out in productive ways.
** Watch for triggers: playing with certain things, certain times of the day, competitive scenarios, etc.
In the moment:
** Remove him from the situation, physically if necessary, to a neutral, quiet area.
** Stay calm and practice not raising your voice. Willa is so right that it IS reassuring for him when you remain calm and in control of your emotions even though he seems FAR from reassured.
** You can be physical as well, even while remaining calm. By physical I mean: restrain him from hitting you, from kicking, from hurting himself or other things.
** If a fit isn't COMPLETELY explosive, I might say something like, "I understand you are really mad. Use your words to tell me you are mad. Hitting mommy is always wrong and you may not (insert behavior of focus here) hit mommy."
After the moment:
** Try not to offer punishments DURING the tantrum. Wait until the tantrum is over to identify an action with a consequence. No lecturing or long explanations. The child is exhausted in every way. Wait to talk with the child about things that are hurtful or inappropriate when the timing is more neutral.
** Role play situations, especially if you've found a trigger. Give him good words to use. This is when you can really talk about and focus on a particular behavior, like hitting mommy. Say things like, "When you want to hit, I understand that you are really mad. Hitting mommy is always wrong. Do not hit me. (firm voice) You can use your words and tell me that you're really mad though." And role play and help him find words he can use. Giving kids words to use is a huge help!
** FILL HIS LOVE TANK!! More on that below.
kbfsc wrote:
| Using the analogy of a bank account, I have felt like this journey with my son has been one of many more withdrawals than deposits - and am very saddened by that. |
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I would agree with you, and I think you're very wise to see that. Your analogy is right on! Your son feels this way, too, by the way, and even though he can't communicate and articulate it to you, when he's exhausted and done with those fits, what he needs and longs for is the reassurance of your unconditional love. Now, I'm not saying that actions (like hitting mommy) don't receive consequences (they should!)! But, I do want to encourage you to consider how you can meet your son in one other area and that is to make some deposits --> Fill his love tank.
I so understand where you are on this! These fits are exhausting and troubling for mom, too. The tantrum is troubling. The physical agression is disturbing. The hurtful, uncharacteristic words are upsetting. And the focus starts to be on these *stars of the show*.
I want to encourage you to check out one other book by Dr. Ross Campbell: How to Really Love Your Child, and another by Dr. Campbell that was a help when parenting in intense situations: How To Really Love Your Angry Child. You may be somewhat familiar with Dr. Campbell if you've ever heard of the five love languages (which is the title of yet another book I highly recommend. But, I digress. From How to Really Love Your Child:
Quote:
Another critical concept for parents to understand is that each child has an emotional tank. This tank is figurative, of course, but very real. Each child has certain emotional needs, and whether these emotional needs are met (through love, understanding, discipline, etc.) determines many things. First of all, how a child feels: whether he is content, angry, depressed, or joyful. Secondly, it affects his behavior: whether he is obedient, disobedient, whiny, perky, playful, or withdrawn. Naturally, the fuller the tank, the more positive the feelings and the better the behavior.
At this point let me make one of the most important statements in this book. Only if the emotional tank is full, can a child be expected to be at his best or to do his best. And whose responsibility is is to keep that emotional tank full? You guessed it, the parents'. |
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So, your mommy instincts were RIGHT ON when you were feeling like this is making significant withdrawals! Good for you! Half the battle is seeing it. I'm hoping you can pick these two thin, simple to read books up because they are insightful, positive, and speak to the heart of a child and the heart of a mother and father! And I do believe they will help you in finding ways to fill this little fella's "love tank" so that he is bolstered on the foundation of your unconditional love for him!
to you Kiera! You are doing such a fantastic job, and you are such a good and loving mommy! I am praying for you! This parenting gig is the toughest we'll ever have - it's saint making at its finest!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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kbfsc
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| Posted: Dec 23 2011 at 9:14am | IP Logged
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Thank you for your thoughtful responses! The kindness of 4Real friends always blesses me.
It is soooo tempting to become overwhelmed by the shame of our mistakes, isn't it? It requires a tremendous discipline on my part to stay focused on hope and grace. God is with us! It is the season of Emmanuel, after all!
Jen, I will check out the books you suggested. Thank you!
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Kiera
happy mama of ds '02, dd '03, ds '06, dd '09 and little ones in heaven
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jawgee
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Just wanted to mention that my now 6YO was very difficult at 4, too. He also has a speech delay, which I think contributed to his frustrations in being unable to express himself.
He is 6 now, though, and over the course of the past year he has grown emotionally so much. He's much, much better. Any tantrums where he throws things are very rare now.
Wanted also to commiserate that he is more laid-back and "go with the flow" than his older brother. It always seemed like such a paradox to me.
I really like Dr. Gregory Popcak. I listened to a CD of Parenting with Grace around the time that my son's tantrums were peaking, and he mentioned on that CD that some children - especially boys - need physical interation with their parents to "fill their tank". I discovered that my son is very much that way. I found that if I took time every day to be physical with him (he likes me to throw him on the couch and wrestle and tickle him) then he has a much more agreeable nature throughout the day. Even now that his tantrums are mostly gone, if he is having a bad day I'll throw him on the couch and he can't help but giggle and smile again. Sometimes he even asks me to "beat him up" (which is what we call the wrestling game) if he's feeling down.
I've been there. It's not easy.
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Monica
C (12/2001), N (11/2005), M (5/2008), J (8/2009) and three angels
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Kathryn
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| Posted: Dec 23 2011 at 12:58pm | IP Logged
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jawgee wrote:
| I really like Dr. Gregory Popcak. I listened to a CD of Parenting with Grace around the time that my son's tantrums were peaking, |
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I was coming back to say that I was listening to the Popcak's on the radio today (guess all my parenting advice comes from Catholic radio...can't be a bad thing, huh?  ). At any rate, the caller had a very intense 6 yr old DD and they did talk about 4-6 being an age of learning to get more control over their emotional temperature. They mentioned (like a few others have) about removing the child from the situation and physically holding him (firmly but not in a negative way). He did say they may somewhat escalate but to just calmly stay with them until they get under control. She said you'd know when they are calm when they do the deep breath sigh and THEN you can talk to them. Also about teaching them to count, take deep breaths to help them bring down their emotions as they learn to control their feelings and reactions.
HTH...
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Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
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Angie Mc
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After posting, I thought...
My more laid back child, in a way, missed learning some coping skills when he was younger because he didn't need them! Since he didn't get easily upset, he didn't need to learn how to cope with upset until he was older and perceived things as upsetting. His older sibling, spirited from the get go, was taught all sorts of coping skills starting at 2  . A simple coping skill such as going to your bed and pounding your pillow instead of (fill in blank) came in handy for all my children, but some needed to learn skills earlier than others, some needed them more long-term than others, and some needed to learn more skills than others. But they all needed to learn how to cope. Me too .
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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kbfsc
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A little good news to report to all of you that have encouraged me on this thread! Christmas day is so thrilling AND so difficult for over-excited and sugared-up children in my house... and my intense little one was really revved up. I had a moment of success in the midst of it, however, by removing him from a tense situation and just holding him. He settled down quickly and was ready to behave more appropriately, thanks be to God! I am thankful for the wisdom shared on this thread! I think we will need to address inappropriate behaviors one at a time, and just keep reassuring and hugging a lot. Thank you, ladies!
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Kiera
happy mama of ds '02, dd '03, ds '06, dd '09 and little ones in heaven
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: intense 5yo boy!
