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amyable
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| Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 2:13pm | IP Logged
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Or is that "raining in chaos?" 
I think I have let things get way out of control here, under the guise of being a "yes mom".
Things like me letting them make what they want for lunch because they help with a younger sibling, wandering around doing work (which means they all start talking/playing), etc, ad exhaustinum.
Even when I try to create a new rule to help it always seems it just doesn't work. Like today, after discussing it with dh, we enforced sitting at the table (our only table) for school work because they would wander off and play and not work. Which only *moved* the chaos of everyone to the table!  And so the same amount got done...
What do you do in your family to "take control" and reduce chaos? Mandatory quiet time? How about meals, is everyone sitting at the same time eating the same thing? School ideas? I've got one in 8th with LDs on down to preschool. Other tips, please share!!
Is it crazy that I have five kids and have been a mom for 14 years and still don't know how to do this?? 
(and yes it is not lost on me that I have asked similar questions before.  )
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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CrunchyMom
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I know how you feel Amy. I feel like if I could just get to the point where things were organized like I want them, I could have systems that worked. For me, I have a hard time discerning kid chaos from environmental chaos. Like, I need homes for things in order to have rules for them. Or an organized kitchen/menu plan in order to enforce rules about meal time.
I want to be a yes mom when it comes to creative impulses, but I feel like if I do that when there are no routines in place for keeping it orderly, yes mom becomes crazy/screaming/storming mommy pretty quick.
Part of me despairs of ever recovering from moving when I was 8 months into a difficult pregnancy and giving birth to a super needy baby. Ever.
So, is it environmental for you, too? Do you see this as simply a behavioral problem in your home, or is it a matter of creating an environment conducive to the sort of rules you want to implement?
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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amyable
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| Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 3:48pm | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| So, is it environmental for you, too? Do you see this as simply a behavioral problem in your home, or is it a matter of creating an environment conducive to the sort of rules you want to implement? |
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BOTH. Yes, part is behavioral, definitely. Not typically outright defiance, more the "I'll sneak away and do what I want, forgetting mom just said SIT DOWN" ADHD behavior. And talking. OH MY WORD...four girls creates a LOT of talk!
And part is environment, both MY fault in not having and following a meal plan anymore, for example, and "house fault" in being to small and poorly laid out for us. We want to move, but it just hasn't worked out.
I'm not saying we don't get any work done, as miraculously, somehow, by the end of the year many things got done. But it's not nearly as much as I'd like, or feel is necessary especially for my older kids. And it's chaotic all the while.
I don't expect miracles, but seriously, could ya just sit and do work quietly for one HALF AN HOUR without it devolving into a giggling, talking, half the people have left the table and not come back, mess? Apparently not!
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 4:09pm | IP Logged
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Divide and conquer?
Can you create teams and have some working on school stuff at the table while others are doing chores, and then have them switch?
And, yes I do think having them all eat the same thing at the same time is a huge help. As is having a designated spot for doing schoolwork if they get distracted easily.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 6:02pm | IP Logged
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Oh ugh, Amy!!! I lost an entire post  due to my own silliness! I had been piecing it together for some time through the afternoon and I was just about ready to post it. NUTS!!! NUTS!!! NUTS!!!
Now, it's almost time for me to go make dinner. I'm piecing together parts that I remember and apologizing ahead of time if it comes across brusque or forward! I'm trying to get some practical ideas out for you to consider, but we can work with other challenges you identify and brainstorm them!!! And don't feel bad about asking this question when you feel you've already asked it!!!!!!!! The vocation of motherhood is fluid - we're always stretching and trying to grow toward virtue as our family grows and changes. Sometimes it feels like the 'ol the treadmill of virtue-building-within-our-vocation got cranked up to 80mph on us!! Merciful heavens!!! Let's see if we can find some areas you can identify and work with.
** I'm not a *yes-mom* ( ), though I do try to err on the side of generosity when responding to my children. I do NOT allow myself to feel pressured or obligated to say yes to anything...either by my children, other children, other mothers, ideas I might have about how I should be saying "yes" more. Nope. See how easy it is to say? I do like being generous and I like saying yes and do so when it fits the situation and its needs. However, I have no problem saying no. That's for context and so you understand where I'm coming from. 
** Painful: I often have to spend some prayerful time examining myself and considering if there are self-discipline issues of my own involved in chaos. How have I contributed? Actively? By omission and ignoring situations I should have intervened in? By modeling grumbling and discontent? By responding to noise with more noise? Ouch. It often/always hurts, but I have to correct myself before I can work on issues with the kids and brainstorm environment to be a working tool.
** I do require periods of silent work and also a longer period of quiet time in our days. I consider it a dis-service to my children, their future spouses/vocations, and future peers to not teach them to control their whims whether that's hitting/being physical out of anger, throwing a temper tantrum to get their way, intentionally choosing to ignore a house rule, or chatting endlessly (as my girls can also do!). I also consider this habit training and it takes work to brainstorm, introduce, set up tools that make the way smooth and then....enforce. It's hard-nose-to-the-grindstone-buckle-up-buttercup-WORK to set up these habits, but they serve well once they're in place!!!! For the silent work periods: start small...maybe 10 minutes at the beginning of the day after morning prayers and 10 minutes of silent work time after lunch. Extend that time as the habit grows. Introduce it by talking it up, don't blind-side them with something foreign...like silence!!!
** I also think it's important to let the kids just *be* as much as is reasonable....so I point them in directions so they can do that! So, maybe send them outside, or to the "chat-room" in the house for their silly conversations.
** Like Lindsay, I find that I am very affected by environment. Dis-order in my home environment = noise = chaos. I consider part of my work to be considering spaces, brainstorming them, using reasonable tools to make the space useable and of service to the family, and being content with good enough. Purging and detaching are perennial rather than a one-time occurrence. We make significant purges in Advent and Lent to assist us in detaching and because more stuff = more noise. I also really appreciate how Holy Mother Church prompts us seasonally to look inwardly at the tools we use in the service of our vocation, examine them anew, and move ever toward detachment.
** Beyond detaching, contentment is something I (and I imagine we must all) work toward. No one's environment is ever gonna be perfect or ideal. We'll all have challenges somewhere in our spaces. I have to brainstorm what I can, be reasonable about tools that can be of service, not over-clutter the space with excess, and then surrender the space (because if I'm in it, and we're not there because we're outside of our means, God must want us to be there! So, I need to be content there!) and be content with it even in its imperfections. One of the ways I like to do this is visualizing how I might work with really challenging spaces I encounter. I imagine how much I could live without in a particular space I may have seen, or the few tools that would be of assistance, and make a decision that there could be contentment in that space, or another, or any space. It's really more of a visualization tool, but I think it's helped me over the years to brainstorm my spaces, to think outside of them (while inside of them ), and be content with what they are and can be....which won't be perfect, but could be good and workable and reasonable....and still beautiful because it's where God wants us to grow as family for that time.
** Look to children's temperaments as a tool for understanding and meeting them where they are. I think St. Paul was thinking of the mom of the large family when he said we'd have to be all things to all people.  If you are a choleric mom (which I might be  )....try reigning in your temperament so that you don't overpower your very easy-going-need-to-please-you phlegmatic child (not easy...learned many hard lessons that way...still learning!!!). And be careful not to step on your melancholic child that needs to be thoughtful and pensive about decisions which you would make in 10 seconds. Etc, etc, "ad exhaustinum". It's stretching and saint building! One way or the other, no matter the mom, you're going to be stepping outside of comfort zones and growing in virtue as a matter of necessity as a part of this vocation. ALL.HARD.WORK!!!  As part of this, I work to identify how a child behaves naturally (part of their God-given-temperament), try to meet them in ways that I can (often involves stretching me outside of my temperament), and then give them some behavioral tools and healthy words to use so we can work together. So, for my chatters, I drop my voice to just above a whisper, slow....my....speaking, and let them know that it is time for silent work. I ask them to finish their last thought with me and then give them a concrete time (use of a timer that beeps is a help) that they'll need to be quiet. Before we officially begin a work time of silence, I make sure to (in my same quiet, slower-paced voice) ask them if they have what they need, provide tools, get them pointed in a productive direction. During times of silent work, my voice is always quieter so that it doesn't invite extra talking. I nip chatting in the bud.
** A couple of years ago our oldest child no longer worked well in the group of younger siblings. I think this is a healthy indicator of a child growing up, becoming independent, needing space in which to define and exercise their independence. The new work space for the older child doesn't have to be large or glamorous: a simple small folding table and chair next to a bookshelf of their own books works fine. It does significantly help with family relations, and is a healthy encouragement to the older child that conveys to them that you understand that they are growing, and that you choose to continue to extend trust to that child. All important relationship builders. Practical work arounds for small spaces and large families that just DON'T have space for every older child to work in a space-set-aside :: tv tables fold neatly and store under couches, behind coats, etc and can be pulled out for work time and set up in an independent work area and stored at the end of the day.
** Regarding meal chaos: As Theresa suggested, we buddy up older and younger siblings for lunch prep. The rule here is the older sibling doesn't eat until the younger sibling is eating. The rule is enforced by me!! We all eat together at the same time because there are just so many benefits besides just family sharing! Children learn to behave socially in and through the family, and the family table provides a rich environment for conversation and topics which teach children about social behavior.
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Ok - now it's time for me to go brainstorm dinner!! And now you know how very loved you are since I have typed out not one, but two ridiculously long post-tomes!!!
Don't be afraid to call me on something if I missed the point, or missed the boat, or just plain messed up! I'm off to the races without proofing this!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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10 Bright Stars
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| Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 9:13pm | IP Logged
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Interesting thread...I was just going to post perhaps a similiar thread/question, so hoping this doesn't go "off" topic because it touches on temperments and order. For starters, I am definately of a meloncholy termperment. This causes me to "think too much" about most everything. My husband is just about as choleric as cholerics gets...very organized, always wants things "on a list", "what's the plan?" is a frequent comment of his. I DO tend to live "in the moment" while marveling at planners from the sidelines. I Am trying to stretch and grow in these areas. Finally started using and yes, actually looking at a calendar after all these years. (Is that a choleric I hear screaming?? ) Started keeping a grocery list when I notice something is missing. SEEEE baby steps.  But, my house is usually NOT where I want it to be and things seem chaotic to me. My husband is always tellig me I need a schedule, but then life seems to get in the way of the plan. Sounds stupid, but we do tend to have a basic rhythym for the day.
The problem is that I clean constantly! The kids clean constantly! Kids who come over here to stay for a weekend now and then (cousins) have commented to my kids, "Gee, your family sure cleans a lot." So, why is it such a mess??? This started me to thinking about how I was raised. My family really only had two children for most of my time in the house...more were added later when I was older and had moved out. We went to school all day and my Mom cooked and cleaned all night. I was never asked to help, but did keep my room very clean. I was always forgetful about school assignments etc. and did always feel a little "different" from the other kids as far as being disorganized. Anyway, my Mom usually stuffed things in drawers, closets etc. So, the outer things always appeared ordered, but drawers were a mess etc. I think I am trying to do that, but times 10! I was wondering if I am missing an entire layer of info. when it comes to "organizing." I have dressers for the kids clothes, and then their things are placed on shelves in their closets etc. The girls room for example.... 5 girls, fairly large room (fits two Ikea double bed bunk beds with room for 4 Ikea dressers with a space in the middle of the room.) Closet...fairly large.. wide shelves (built in) on both sides of the closet (3 feet deep x 8 feet wide) There is a pretty curtain as a door. Anyway, I go in their room every weekend or so....have them help me clean it..come out with a trash bag full of stuff...odds and end..bits of this and that that shouldn't be in there...dutifully put their clothes in their dresser drawers, and then hang up their dresses (have them do this too), put books on the shelves in their closet, although I recently took out all of their books except their classic book collection and their Little House books.) So, long story short... their room is trashed THE NEXT DAY! I was thinking perhaps other folks pack most everything away...or I am missing some sort of training, although I do talk to them about where to hang what, and have them help me etc. The other day, I went into their room and one of the little girls had somehow gotten a Ramen noodle package out of the kitchen, taken it upstairs, and there were dry Ramen noodles ALL over the carpet. I am here...How did THAT happen?? I am not off and side-tracked either. The baby keeps me pretty much in the center of the house in the family room all day and I can see comings and goings.
Am I missing something when it comes to organization in the large family? Maybe I have too much stuff "out and about" instead of packed away? My Mother did mention once that she thought the girls had too many clothes, but when I go to sort through them to throw them out, their dressers are not stuffed (except for my oldest daughters....she is a thrift store mannikin!! We find a lot of lovely things for her)
Do most of you all utilize containers? I don't really have many of those. How do you organize your kids closets if they share a room with many other children? A sad example is underware. I am constantly purchasing them for the girls, (40 pair jsut a few weeks ago!!) yet every morning, they can't seem to find any and I have to go and track them down in the laundry room. I do have a bin system in the laundry room and my 11 year old daughter is in charge of the laundry most days. She does a good job, hit or miss in that some days she will do 10 loads, and then she will go several days without doing any because she burned out on it. (She is a choleric, FOR SURE!! Very organized, but she is in the mood or she isnt.) When the bins get full, my daughter or I call the little girls up to help us take everyone's laundry to their rooms to put in the dressers. Soooo, where is all the underware????
Hopefully someone will have an "ah-HA" moment and I am just missing something? I think I clean WAY too much for it to be so disorganized seeming all the time. We have tried to just start going room to room each morning...but the kids are always dragging things out. We don't really have a designated "play room". Is that helpful? I always just feel generally annoyed with myself for how things run around here and where I even PUT things. I always assume I could/SHOULD be doing it differrrently or better.
God bless,
Kim
__________________
Kim married to Bob (22y)
Mom of 11 blessings:
Bobby 19, David 17, Noah 14,
Mary 12, Gracie 10,
Isabelle and Sophia 8,
Gabrielle 6,
William Anthony 4, Joseph 3 and Luisa Marie - born in M
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JodieLyn
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I have come to the conclusion that it's a lack of space as much as a lack of organization Kim. I have some ADD tedencies that make the keeping things organized hard.. I can organize but keeping up with it ..
But I also have a good eye for space.. so when I take the time to really look... if there's a handful of toys out in the living room.. it looks messy. If my living room was twice the size (which would be a reasonable size even) it wouldn't look near as bad.
We just recently switched rooms with the boys.. so now dh and I have the smallest room. But the boys went from not being able to function in their room, not even being able to start on their own to clean it up. To be able to not only clean up their room reasonably well but keeping it that way.. partly because it's simply not so overwhelming for the same amount of things to be out in a larger space.
We couldn't give the girls a bigger room but we are trying to streamline their furniture and storage and give them a bit more space in their room AND easy attractive ways to store. Their room is being repainted in a cafe au lait sort of color with pink accents. So I have pink "cubes" for putting dollhouse things and play dishes and such in. That way things can be sorted and easy!! to put away again.. My hope is that we'll have a simple shelf under the window for the doll house (I'm repainting it for my youngest girl's Christmas present) to set on and these cubes can sit under the shelf. But there is no way around their room being crowded and so it will be more difficult for them to keep up.
I think Jen's idea of the tv trays is outstanding.. and I'm gonna start looking for those. The girls room even has a bed they could be stored under. Maybe a couple of folding chairs too.
But with the smaller house we just need to reduce stuff.. even good useable stuff that I don't really want to get rid of
I'm really really hoping we can seriously look at adding onto our house.. it would still be small with what I want to do but we'd get another bathroom and have bedrooms big enough to give the kids that little bit more space that makes such a difference in a room feeling cluttered and yet only having the necessary items in it. And we'd get a second living area space.. neither would be big but it would allow for a kids' space and an adult space when we have people over which would be lovely.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 10:55pm | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
| Or is that "raining in chaos?" |
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*I* think it should be...
REIGNING in the Chaos
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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amyable
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| Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 7:15am | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
Divide and conquer?
Can you create teams and have some working on school stuff at the table while others are doing chores, and then have them switch? |
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This may work to some extent, Theresa - although they talk/fight/fidget through their chores as well, and something that should have taken 10 minutes takes 40, which messes with school... If I could have a good routine set up, I can see this working in small doses.
Jen, I am SO sorry you lost your post! Yes, you must really love me to write that twice!! If the one you posted was only a recap, the first one must have really been EPIC!
Mackfam wrote:
| ** I'm not a *yes-mom* ( ), though I do try to err on the side of generosity when responding to my children. I do NOT allow myself to feel pressured or obligated to say yes to anything...either by my children, other children, other mothers, ideas I might have about how I should be saying "yes" more. |
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Funny thing is, deep inside I am NOT a "yes mom" at ALL. I'm much more a "my way or the highway" type of person. But like Kim, I'm a melancholic that WAY overthinks things. I think it's compounded by my global thinking style. (Drives my linear husband CRA-ZY! ) The thousands of times a day I have to make a decision, I can see 10 reasons why a "yes" would be appropriate and 10 reasons why a "no" would be best, all in a matter of seconds. I try to take a stab at the very best answer, which can change from hour to hour, day to day. (See the potential for chaos?? Even if it's just chaos of my mind?) Even when I make a routine/schedule/rules and stick to them, multiple situations a day present reasons why I should go off track. E.G. for the second week in a row we are sick, today is St. Nick's Day, "the 4yo is being loud and I can't think can I please go work on my bed??" etc.
Mackfam wrote:
** Painful: I often have to spend some prayerful time examining myself and considering if there are self-discipline issues of my own involved in chaos. |
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Yeah. Ouch. Like me being on the computer right now? At least today, I have the excuse of St. Nick's and the kids are all milling around eating fruit snacks and clementines. We'll start school later. At least today, I think that's OK. But yes, all those things you mentioned I am guilty of. I'm struggling mightily, though, with the "problems" of my life (fodder for another post! ) and feel oh. so. alone with so little to give to make this work right.
Mackfam wrote:
** I do require periods of silent work and also a longer period of quiet time in our days. I consider it a dis-service to my children, their future spouses/vocations, and future peers to not teach them to control their whims whether that's hitting/being physical out of anger, throwing a temper tantrum to get their way, intentionally choosing to ignore a house rule, or chatting endlessly (as my girls can also do!). |
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THANK YOU for putting it all this way, Jen. You are so right. And at the same time, I *see* this, and it's the application that trips me up.
OK, I'm going to post this, for fear of losing it...more later!!
THANK YOU all for being there for me and helping me think, helping me see how you do things.
__________________
Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 7:42am | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
| omething that should have taken 10 minutes takes 40 |
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THIS!!!!! is what makes me crazy. The dawdling. I can't figure out how to stop the dawdling.
I truly feel that if we, all of us, could just be disciplined enough to do things in a timely way, it would do a lot for the peace in our home.
My motivation right now is to purge and organize and label so that there is no thinking involved in the most basic activities. I feel I could focus on building this habit in all of us if the activities themselves were simplified.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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amyable
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| Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 8:21am | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
Introduce it by talking it up, don't blind-side them with something foreign...like silence!!! |
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I think that might kill them.
Since posting this yesterday, I tried to really mentally step back and observe, trying to figure out what bothered me the most. It wasn't long before I figured out it was the talking. Especially their talking "style" - it's more a talk AT me than with me. For example they will start a conversation about whatever tidbit is on their mind...interrupting my speech or work to do so. I stop what I'm doing, answer them, they reply, I reply...then a pause. In MY mind, it is over and I am quickly back to my own thoughts. THEN, they start talking again, about something similar, or not. I sigh, reply, and again try to get back into my own mind...they pause, and start talking AGAIN. I lose it. No, not to their face most of the time, but internally. I usually stick a smile on my face and excuse myself to get something from downstairs or whatever, just to keep from spilling my frustration on them. It's not that I don't want to pay attention to them or talk with them, I do! I'm not sure how to explain it, but I think other introvert moms of many may understand. It's like the conversation was over but they just kept talking about "nothing" to keep my attention,when I really need to...continue my conversation with their sister, or run downstairs to get the dryer that they hear buzzing, or any of the other hundred things a day that have my attention.
This, on TOP of the chaos of talking to each other, not doing their chores timely enough, little attitude issues, sneaking away from work, and too close quarters, ON TOP of the mental issues I'm having with several of my kids having chronic issues/illnesses and my husband being out of commission with pain every other day, has just sent me over the edge into chaos-land.
Not to mention pre-menopause.
Mackfam wrote:
Purging and detaching are perennial rather than a one-time occurrence. We make significant purges in Advent and Lent to assist us in detaching and because more stuff = more noise. |
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I am *constantly* purging and decluttering. But while I know it is good and necessary, it brings a feeling of never being *settled*, never being *home* and *done*. I guess I'll never *really* feel home until I'm dead but I would like to have a system of storage, etc, that works for more than 5 months, you know what I mean?? I admit I am bad at the contentment for our space, but years ago God put the "moving" bug on my heart (I really feel it was Him, because I felt this urge to pack when we weren't even thinking of moving yet...just to be "ready"...well that was so long ago that I have since unpacked, lol)
Mackfam wrote:
** Look to children's temperaments as a tool for understanding and meeting them where they are. I think St. Paul was thinking of the mom of the large family when he said we'd have to be all things to all people. |
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I'm bad at this, but I think it goes back to my ability to see TOO MANY options. My kids are so different, that their needs always conflict with each other. Every time I am meeting one's needs, I am hurting another. I know it's a give and take, but it always seems to be a "take and take" around here. Not to toot my own horn but I've always been the type that can see the subtle needs of others, of being able to read faces and body language, and I may see what other differently abled mom's just don't notice. (this too drives my husband crazy). Once I've *seen* it, however, I have a hard time ignoring it.
*****
10 Bright Stars wrote:
| My husband is just about as choleric as cholerics gets...very organized, always wants things "on a list", "what's the plan?" is a frequent comment of his. |
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Our husbands sound like twins separated at birth. I am like you, an over-thinking-melancholic. Funny, I feel like HIS organizational style brings chaos into MY life because I am forced to think like he does (because he wants me to) when it isn't natural and I.DON'T.WANT.TO. It brings mental chaos to derail my organizational style (if you can call what looks like NON-organization a "style" ) to maintain HIS style, poorly.
10 Bright Stars wrote:
| I was wondering if I am missing an entire layer of info. when it comes to "organizing." |
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I feel the same way! Grew up as one of 2 kids, 6 years apart. We were ALL quiet and introverted. I did not in any way learn to manage a house full of girls and a choleric little boy. In a house smaller than I grew up in.
10 Bright Stars wrote:
| So, long story short... their room is trashed THE NEXT DAY! |
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Here too. It's a constant battle. I know part of it is the size of the room. (approx 10x11 for four girls). When each kid leaves just 2 things out, the room looks trashed, and it's never just 2 things. My kids are AWFUL about putting something away or throwing it out when they are done. We are working on it, but really not making any progress. How do you enforce this when you are constantly dealing with school and housework and all the other issues above? 
10 Bright Stars wrote:
I always just feel generally annoyed with myself for how things run around here and where I even PUT things. I always assume I could/SHOULD be doing it differrrently or better.
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I feel your pain.
JodieLyn wrote:
But I also have a good eye for space.. so when I take the time to really look... if there's a handful of toys out in the living room.. it looks messy. If my living room was twice the size (which would be a reasonable size even) it wouldn't look near as bad. |
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 I feel guilty wanting more space when people in other countries live in huts, but then I think those people aren't expected to teach their kids the equivalent of a U.S. high school education (or better) in their own homes. It *does* take space.
JodieLyn wrote:
I think Jen's idea of the tv trays is outstanding.. and I'm gonna start looking for those. The girls room even has a bed they could be stored under. Maybe a couple of folding chairs too.
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Kicking myself that we gave away 4 TV trays just a few months ago! But seriously, we never used them and didn't really have space to store them. Woe to this poorly laid out house!
JodieLyn wrote:
amyable wrote:
| Or is that "raining in chaos?" |
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*I* think it should be...
REIGNING in the Chaos
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LOVE IT! 
__________________
Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Mackfam
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amyable wrote:
| Since posting this yesterday, I tried to really mentally step back and observe, trying to figure out what bothered me the most. It wasn't long before I figured out it was the talking. Especially their talking "style" - it's more a talk AT me than with me. For example they will start a conversation about whatever tidbit is on their mind...interrupting my speech or work to do so. I stop what I'm doing, answer them, |
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This sounds like a courtesy/interrupting thing...and we had a REAL problem with that around here! There is always someone talking here, and most often there is someone in DIRE need of my attention when I am already talking to someone else. I taught my kids how to let me know they need my attention without interrupting and it has made a HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!
** Look to my eyes: if I'm making eye contact with someone or READING A BOOK, I am engaged and it would be rude to interrupt.
** Child needing/wanting my attention takes their hand, opens it flat and places it on my shoulder, or on my leg (if they're little and can't reach my shoulder).
** They are to stand quietly next to me until I acknowledge their hand by placing my hand on theirs. This lets them know I recognize they want my attention and at my next opportunity I'll give them my attention. (And gives me a chance to mentally shift gears which is important for me!)
** I continue the conversation with whomever (another child or mom usually), never breaking eye contact as a courtesy...or I may finish the sentence or paragraph I'm reading.
** At a break in the conversation, I look to the child needing my attention and make eye contact. This is their cue to talk.
THIS HAS HELPED SO MUCH AROUND HERE WITH INTERRUPTIONS!!!!!!!! I try to acknowledge them as soon as possible, and they have done AMAZINGLY WELL with the hand-on-shoulder-stand-quietly-beside-me-and-wait-their-turn method!!!!!! A local friend of mine shared a variation of this method with me and I've been using it ever since. I wondered if it might help you brainstorm a way to work with the feeling of constant interruptions because it seems to make my kids THINK about what they're going to say so that it's purposeful because they know they are going to have to intrude in an ongoing conversation. It is SOOOOOOOOO helpful when I'm talking with other moms. And of course, they know if blood is involved they're to interrupt immediately!
Training is easy. I don't acknowledge people that interrupt. They don't get eye contact. Big kids just need an explanation of what I expect and then mine ran with it. BUT....in the beginning, especially with the littler people, if they were talking to me and interrupting, I would continue giving my attention to the original person while gently reaching over to take their hand and placing it on my shoulder or leg and holding it there for a second. Then....AS SOON AS I COULD...I'd look to them, give them eye contact, and say, "Thank you for letting me know you need me by putting your hand on my leg. What do you need?" They picked up quickly with the positive reinforcement. HUGE, HUGE DIFFERENCE around here!!! I don't like interruptions, but I do want to give my attention so I've been jumping for joy at how well this works here!!
amyable wrote:
This, on TOP of the chaos of talking to each other, not doing their chores timely enough, little attitude issues, sneaking away from work, and too close quarters, ON TOP of the mental issues I'm having with several of my kids having chronic issues/illnesses and my husband being out of commission with pain every other day, has just sent me over the edge into chaos-land.
Not to mention pre-menopause. |
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That's a lot, friend! A very full plate! I'm right there with you on a lot of that! I think we all face challenges and stressors. My kids sure aren't perfect and our house doesn't run perfectly. I don't want you to think for a SECOND that I have everything figured out, or that my house runs like clockwork, or that life here is cheery, happy, polite, delightful...all the time. No way!!! This vocation is HARD WORK no matter the shoes you're in, no matter your temperament, and I face some major struggles and stressors, too. You are NOT ALONE, Amy!! We are each going to be struggling as we try to perfect ourselves in Him, transform our life in Christ, to become a saint with the gifts (crosses) that He gives us. Add to all of this the fact that the family is under attack like never before, and this takes on a new dimension, a deeply spiritual one. Yet our Lord tells us to rejoice in all things. Everything. This is my own personal take, but I find this comes easily, in fact naturally, the more I am like a child. Makes sense considering Our Lord's admonition to be like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven. I tried it and it really helped me lighten up, be in the moment, rejoice, be grateful. Maybe it would help to find your inner child and give yourself permission to embrace her a few minutes each day?
amyable wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
Purging and detaching are perennial rather than a one-time occurrence. We make significant purges in Advent and Lent to assist us in detaching and because more stuff = more noise. |
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I am *constantly* purging and decluttering. But while I know it is good and necessary, it brings a feeling of never being *settled*, never being *home* and *done*. I guess I'll never *really* feel home until I'm dead but I would like to have a system of storage, etc, that works for more than 5 months, you know what I mean?? I admit I am bad at the contentment for our space, but years ago God put the "moving" bug on my heart (I really feel it was Him, because I felt this urge to pack when we weren't even thinking of moving yet...just to be "ready"...well that was so long ago that I have since unpacked, lol) |
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Yes... ...I know what you mean on the storage thing. More on this below.......
amyable wrote:
10 Bright Stars wrote:
| My husband is just about as choleric as cholerics gets...very organized, always wants things "on a list", "what's the plan?" is a frequent comment of his. |
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Our husbands sound like twins separated at birth. I am like you, an over-thinking-melancholic. Funny, I feel like HIS organizational style brings chaos into MY life because I am forced to think like he does (because he wants me to) when it isn't natural and I.DON'T.WANT.TO. It brings mental chaos to derail my organizational style (if you can call what looks like NON-organization a "style" ) to maintain HIS style, poorly. |
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I am a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE believer in thinking of storage ideas, or any ideas (how you tackle lesson time, lesson plans, organizational methods, behavioral approaches - ALL OF IT...THE WHOLE 9 YARDS!!!!) and brainstorming them in ways that are...
>>> INTUITIVE FOR YOU!!! <<<
My husband's temperament is very different from mine, and I do have to bend like you both do...in ways that are sometimes really hard for me. It's a part of that whole "becoming one" thing. This could be the time for a fruitful, ongoing conversation about your particular styles of maintaining and organizing: what works and definitely doesn't work for you, how his gifts can contribute, how your gifts figure in, where they can blend.
I have found that if I go to my husband and blow steam in confiding all the myriad of ways I am overwhelmed (and I HAVE done this), he will, as the head of the home and in trying to protect and help me, try to solve the problem by stepping in, removing variables, exercising his strengths in ways that will help. These are all good things...except that in my attempt to confide, I complained too much and he got the sense that I was drowning (I was) and his impulse is to pull me out of the water and protect...and what I need is a swimming lesson. I might not be a master at how he would swim or tread water, but I could swim or tread water in my own style. Is that too metaphoric to make sense? I have to be careful about how I confide to my husband so that I convey my challenges, invite his help in brainstorming ways that I can keep my head above water, without him thinking that he needs to alert the Coast Guard and drag me out of the water altogether, or jump in and swim in my place...or, as you both point out, ask me to swim upstream in a foreign style that I don't have a clue how to do which just makes me drown even faster.
I would encourage you both to be WHO YOU ARE! Work within that....what is intuitive for you? What works? What doesn't? What makes sense? A more relaxed, loose-fitting organizational style? If this makes sense to you, but doesn't *look like* how anyone else organizes....YOU NEED TO GO WITH IT!
I don't know if you remember MaryM's thread on homeschool confessions. I'm going to use an example from her because I think it illustrates how this works so well. She mentioned that her lesson plans are often scribbled on post-its folded and stuffed in her purse. That makes me  , but it WORKS FOR HER. It's INTUITIVE FOR HER!!!
I can see the gifts within each of our temperaments, gifts we bring to our family through our vocations, and certainly one is not better than others. We're each working to overcome weakness and vice. Christ is the perfection of all temperaments, and that's our goal - to be who we are, as He made us, and perfect ourselves in Him. That applies to my spiritual life, but it also applies to the little things - like how we store off season clothes, how we react to interruptions, how we squeeze usefulness out of space.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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asplendidtime
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We have, no talking at the school table. And then we are working on quiet voices, this is getting very important.
I had to move to a timed schedule, as I was finding that they had such a habit of idle waste of time. Just fooling around continually. So we have set it up that they need to get so much done in the mornings, and they will get afternoons to pursue crafts/hobbies/reading and then outside fun. (we also squash some laundry folding in there too!)
This has been working out much better for me. Although I never, ever thought I would have a timed schedule!
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violingirl
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We're only working on number 3 so I can't speak to the large family aspect as a mother, but I can share what works for us...
Mine are 4 1/2 and 6, and we're really working hard on some of the habit building Jen wrote about- not interrupting, speaking in an appropriate tone and volume level (I frequently tell my 4yo "I'm *right* here- quiet down!"), and learning to be still as appropriate.
I start our morning with something that requires silence from my boys- reading a picture book or scripture usually. We'll talk about what is planned for school and they tell me anything they would really like to work on after 6 yo's seat work is done. We kind of get our wiggles out and get some of that talking out before sitting to work. When we do get to the table I set a timer for 10 minutes of quiet time while 6yo does his handwriting and 4yo colors. After that the day gets a bit louder, but for us that initial read and 10 minutes of quiet time really helps to establish that tone for the day. They also know that if they get out of hand and I've warned them to cool it a time or two I'll set the timer again for a quiet time and they do try to avoid that.
I'm not a "yes" mom either... if they haven't painted in awhile and they ask to paint I only say yes if we truly have the time to get it out AND put it away, which often isn't at the moment they ask. But I *will* try to plan it to happen within the next few days. I want to consider their desires, but within the realm of what we can reasonably do.
I guess I would suggest that you work on one area at a time- what's the thing that would just make you feel so much better? School time being less chaotic? I'd say really focus everyone on the habit of being quiet for a few minutes at a time and build up to a ten or fifteen minute quiet for a certain portion of school work. Or maybe getting the house under control would make all the difference... Maybe only school 4 days a week and make that 5th day your day to work through the house one room at a time. That made a big difference for me, and now I'm not likely to let anything in my house that we don't truly need because that means yet another thing to take care of!
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Erin
DS (2005) DS (2007) DD (2012)
Mama In Progress
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Angie Mc
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Amy , scanned quickly and saw that "talking" is getting to you. Well, sister, I've been obsessing on this topic for over a WEEK here. My goodness, I love to talk, we love to talk, BUT....
So here is my current list of issues we have connected to talking:
Naysaying: When someone says, let's do this or try that and someone starts to ramble on about all the reasons why it won't work Remedy: Find a yes, constructive problem solving or keep quiet (I almost put that in bold but didn't want to shout ).
Nondiscerning Questions: "Mom, should I breath?" OK, it's not THAT bad but it sure feels like it. Remedy: Make a decision, Trust the decisions of others.
Interrupting: This discourtesy is soaring at a frenzied pace. I'M STARTING TO INTERRUPT...UGH! Remedy: Raise hand, wait patiently (beyond someone taking a breath.)
Irritated: With teens in my house, they are greatly tempted to be...irritated. They don't want to listen so they will resort to eye-rolling, etc. Remedy: Patience.
Stating the Obvious: "Mom, it's ten o'clock." It's all I can do to not reply, "Why thank you O Wise One." I know I shouldn't be sarcastic BUT these comments drive me nuts because they tend to be passive aggressive. The above example actually means, "I want what I want now." Remedy: Be direct. Share new information.
Monologue: OK, I'm the one monologging, . Remedy: say it in 10 words or less, use a timer.
Minilogue: I made up this word. It's that strange rolling answer that doesn't actually answer the question. It's sorta like this youtube video. This sends me into a frenzy, demanding like a lawyer...Remedy "Just answer the question! Yes or no!"
Seriously...this is just the iceberg connected to talking. When this piles up along with other concerns...no wonder this homeschooling mommy gig is tough.
So...my obsession on this continues. I'm going to make little flashcards (like the ones I used when they were little, trying to teach them table manners) with this info on them and try to use them to flag us when we get off on the wrong talking track when WE KNOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING SOMETHING ELSE! I'll let you know if I actually do it and if it makes any impact at all.
I hope, at least, it helps to know that you're not alone .
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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amyable
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Angie Mc wrote:
Minilogue: I made up this word. It's that strange rolling answer that doesn't actually answer the question. It's sorta like this youtube video. This sends me into a frenzy, demanding like a lawyer...Remedy "Just answer the question! Yes or no!"
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This is one of my children. Oh my, I didn't know other kids did this!! I thought there was something wrong with her.
And thank you for your other ideas. I am so bad at just stating the problem, finding one solution, and attempting that solution. You make it look so simple. (not easy, but simple)
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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knowloveserve
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Angie Mc wrote:
Stating the Obvious: "Mom, it's ten o'clock." It's all I can do to not reply, "Why thank you O Wise One." I know I shouldn't be sarcastic BUT these comments drive me nuts because they tend to be passive aggressive. The above example actually means, "I want what I want now." Remedy: Be direct. Share new information.
Monologue: OK, I'm the one monologging, . Remedy: say it in 10 words or less, use a timer.
Minilogue: I made up this word. It's that strange rolling answer that doesn't actually answer the question. It's sorta like this youtube video. This sends me into a frenzy, demanding like a lawyer...Remedy "Just answer the question! Yes or no!"
Love, |
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I obsess over this stuff too. What has been a tremendous help to my marriage and my mothering is a talk I listened to on family communication by Tena Crosby at a homeschooling conference. Seriously life changing. She and her family have started a little seedling of an apostolate and they sell a little homegrown book on tackling family communication. I always thought my (direct) communication method was THE right one and had little patience for others beating around the bush or long-winded techniques. I kept trying to force everyone to think and speak like I do. Little did I know what a disservice I was doing to their God-given temperaments by doing this! On their website is contact info... I also recommend asking for a copy of her talk on CD as it really is priceless.
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The Bleeding Pelican
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Grateful in VA
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I mostly lurk around here and am thankful for all I learn from the wise ladies here. I just had to chime in and say that youtube video made me laugh so hard I cried. That's a rare thing for me.
I have conversations like that with my kids all the time. Having the conversation is not nearly has funny as watching it.
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Angel
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Oh my goodness, that youtube video is hysterical. Aaaahh....
This is a rather timely thread for me as well because I was just thinking about coming on here to ask a chaos-related question myself. Maybe it's the season for chaos, too?
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Angela
Mom to 9, 7 boys and 2 girls
Three Plus Two
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asplendidtime
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Angel wrote:
Oh my goodness, that youtube video is hysterical. Aaaahh....
This is a rather timely thread for me as well because I was just thinking about coming on here to ask a chaos-related question myself. Maybe it's the season for chaos, too? |
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Rebecca~Mama to
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Reining in the chaos
