Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.



Active Topics || Favorites || Member List || Search || About Us || Help || Register || Login
Tea and Conversation (Forum Locked Forum Locked)
 4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Subject Topic: 12 Days of Christmas BEFORE Christmas Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Betsy
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: July 02 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
Posted: Dec 13 2010 at 10:04am | IP Logged Quote Betsy

I need a place to vent a bit.... .

I have been bombarded from online shops and some well meaning friends starting the 12 days of Christmas countdown.

As Catholics are we the only people to understand that the 12 days of Christmas starts AFTER Christmas????

I have bitten my lip a few times with my dear Protestant friends, because I am not sure it's the issue to make a mountain out of. However, it really seems to grate on me. It take so much away from Advent and promotes that Christmas is over on Dec 26!

What do you do when in this situation? And good quips? Any good reading recourses about the history of the 12 days of Christmas and how it moved to before Christmas in the secular world?



__________________
ImmaculataDesigns.com
When handcrafting my work, I always pray that it will raise your heart to all that is true, modest, just, holy, lovely and good fame!
Back to Top View Betsy's Profile Search for other posts by Betsy
 
MaryM
Board Moderator
Board Moderator
Avatar

Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
Posted: Dec 13 2010 at 11:47am | IP Logged Quote MaryM

- vent away, Betsy...I can relate!

Betsy wrote:

As Catholics are we the only people to understand that the 12 days of Christmas starts AFTER Christmas????

Generally, yes, we are. I do have one good friend (Episcopalian) who does know and makes sure her church does as well... . She gets frustrated by it also.

Betsy wrote:

What do you do when in this situation? And good quips? Any good reading recourses about the history of the 12 days of Christmas and how it moved to before Christmas in the secular world?


I don't usually say anything unless I really know someone well, but your post got me thinking that I really could just mention it as a little "factoid" whenever the opportunity presents itself.   I would tend to just say it casually - "Did you know that unlike how it is promoted in current culture/advertising, the 12 Days of Christmas actually refers to the time from Christmas to Epiphany (the 3 kings day)? Isn't that interesting!" with a smile and see if there is opportunity to add more for a short catechesis on the topic.

I have no idea of resources that explain the shift. It was probably just gradual as most Protestant Churches and the culture shifted away from liturgical seasons, so it was lost. Without the liturgical seasons - Christmas is the culmination, the end in their eyes, not the beginning of a season. So if you don't know about liturgical seasons and those customs you hear a song like "12 Days of Christmas" and think "huh?" - so it must be something that anticipates the season to them. If you were to ask anyone how/why if fits the days before Christmas, they would have no answer. It doesn't make any sense - 12 days before - why 12 days - nothing of significance. It's not the number of days of Advent, or of December days before Christmas, or even a full number of weeks...if anyone thinks about it, it does not make sense.


__________________
Mary M. in Denver

Our Domestic Church
Back to Top View MaryM's Profile Search for other posts by MaryM Visit MaryM's Homepage
 
guitarnan
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Maryland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10883
Posted: Dec 13 2010 at 12:05pm | IP Logged Quote guitarnan

I think a lot of people know about the true 12 days but only in a cultural context (e.g. they might know from friends or personal experience that in some European countries, Epiphany is the big day to receive gifts, not Christmas, and they're 12 days apart).

I think I'd adopt Mary's approach, too.

One of my friends (Protestant) told me last night she was very upset at church yesterday when their pastor lit a purple candle on her church's Advent wreath, even though a pink candle was there. (This church has always had an Advent wreath, at least in her 40+ years of memory.) She was very annoyed (her word) that the pastor didn't know the significance of the pink candle.

So...it happens everywhere, I guess...as Mary says, perhaps so we have the opportunity for a gentle and kind explanation.

__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
Back to Top View guitarnan's Profile Search for other posts by guitarnan Visit guitarnan's Homepage
 
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
Posted: Dec 13 2010 at 12:30pm | IP Logged Quote JodieLyn

It's about fitting it into what you already do.. when your family traditions are to have the tree and all down before New Year's (and who can blame anyone when it's been up since Thanksgiving) then it's really difficult to put in a 12 days of Christmas starting with Christmas Day.

So they may even know that it's wrong to have it before Christmas Day.. but are trying to bring that idea into their celebrations without changing around the way they already do things.

Another way to bring it up is to be enthusiastic about your own celebration of the 12 days and how you can't wait for it to start on Christmas Day. And if they're people you'd invite over.. invite them to come and celebrate with you after Christmas Day... My ILs used to do a tamale party on New Year's and I keep wanting to revive that BUT use it for Epiphany and invite people over to share in that.

__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4

All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
Back to Top View JodieLyn's Profile Search for other posts by JodieLyn
 
Lori
Forum Pro
Forum Pro
Avatar

Joined: Sept 10 2008
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 257
Posted: Dec 13 2010 at 8:59pm | IP Logged Quote Lori

I just heard one of the musicians from Manheim Steamroller talking about the 12 days of Christmas on a radio commercial today! I was amazed to hear him explain that there were originally 12 days of celebration (Dec 25 to Jan 6--he got his dates correct) but that in early medieval times the celebration got out of hand with too much irreverance, so Christmas celebrations were banned outright. But people still wanted to celebrate Jesus' birth, so they kept it quiet, in their own homes, on one day...Dec 25th.

Don't know how accurate the WHOLE story is, but I was impressed that it was discussed at all. Conservative talk radio station, but not a religious affiliate at all.

__________________
Lori
wife to Rob, momma to Michael (18), Mark (12), Eric (9), Thomas (8), and Tabitha (6)
Back to Top View Lori's Profile Search for other posts by Lori
 
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Board Moderator
Avatar
Non Nobis

Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
Posted: Dec 13 2010 at 10:22pm | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

Just to add a bit of historical perspective...the liturgical season of Advent as well as the season of Christmas were both quite rich and full in terms of observance and recognition until the Reformation, at which time both Advent and Christmas were suppressed. Many celebrations took on a more secular feel, particularly in England. With some, like the Puritans/Pilgrims there was no recognition of Christmas at all since they felt that usurped the Sunday Sabbath. For a long time here in America (until the immigration of Catholics from Ireland, especially) celebrating Christmas at all was still illegal, particularly in the East. Folks were not given the day off, and in fact, some employers changed hours of work just to make it impossible for their employees to get to Mass.

SOOOO....all that to say that between the Reformation and the subsequent suppression of Christmas here in America, once we finally recovered Christmas, as a culture we had lost many of the rich liturgical traditions and reasons involved in living Advent and Christmas as well as a sense of actually preparing (Advent) for a great Feast we'd spend 12 days celebrating! Society in general is caught up in the torrent of a very strong current that pushes Christmas as a material feast which (apparently) is celebrated before THE feast...for 12 days. Many folks are just swept up in the strong current.

That's it for my little history of why Christmas stockings come out after Hallow'een.   

If you'll let me rapidly switch analogies - this "12 days of Christmas-before-Christmas" is like being invited to a great Feast offered by the King (of Kings). Folks walk up to the banquet table, and consume the generous fare before the host even has a chance to set the table...and then leave the dining hall just when the guest of honor sits down (is born).

Just as the culture was preserved in the monasteries during the Middle Ages, our little home monasteries will have to work to preserve and take back the current culture in and through our families - one Advent, one Christmas at a time.

__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
Back to Top View Mackfam's Profile Search for other posts by Mackfam Visit Mackfam's Homepage
 
Betsy
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: July 02 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
Posted: Dec 14 2010 at 7:02am | IP Logged Quote Betsy

Mackfam wrote:
J
Just as the culture was preserved in the monasteries during the Middle Ages, our little home monasteries will have to work to preserve and take back the current culture in and through our families - one Advent, one Christmas at a time.


Beautifully put! We need to be a strong, mostly silent, witness to our beautiful traditions.
Back to Top View Betsy's Profile Search for other posts by Betsy
 
Anne McD
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star


Joined: Dec 21 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 499
Posted: Dec 14 2010 at 9:17am | IP Logged Quote Anne McD

Mackfam wrote:

If you'll let me rapidly switch analogies - this "12 days of Christmas-before-Christmas" is like being invited to a great Feast offered by the King (of Kings). Folks walk up to the banquet table, and consume the generous fare before the host even has a chance to set the table...and then leave the dining hall just when the guest of honor sits down (is born).



Beautiful analogy! I'm Going to have to remember this for future use!

__________________
Anne
Wife to Jon
Mommy to Alex 9
James 8
Katie 6
William 3 1/2
Benedict Joseph 1
and baby on the way! 10/14
Back to Top View Anne McD's Profile Search for other posts by Anne McD
 
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
Posted: Dec 14 2010 at 10:07am | IP Logged Quote CrunchyMom

guitarnan wrote:
I think a lot of people know about the true 12 days but only in a cultural context (e.g. they might know from friends or personal experience that in some European countries, Epiphany is the big day to receive gifts, not Christmas, and they're 12 days apart).


The first time I'd ever heard this was when I was a senior in high school singing in a statewide Baptist ensemble on a tour to Spain. We left the day after Christmas to go and sing Christmas concerts throughout Barcelona--at Protestant locations!

So, I think in many ways, as Jen implied, it is the American Puritan influences in America that contribute to the ignorance of this custom here. Most people simply have never even heard of Epiphany and have naturally assumed the 12 days would HAVE to start before Christmas. Europeans have a much heftier history with Catholicism and its liturgy influencing their secular and even Protestant traditions more.

__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony

[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
Back to Top View CrunchyMom's Profile Search for other posts by CrunchyMom
 

Sorry, you cannot post a reply to this topic.
This forum has been locked by a forum administrator.

  [Add this topic to My Favorites] Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Hosting and Support provided by theNetSmith.com