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Angel
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| Posted: May 19 2010 at 2:42pm | IP Logged
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I think I have seen some discussion here in the past regarding combinations of programs for higher math that seemed to work.
My ds finished his Life of Fred pre-algebra early this year, so we moved on to Jacobs algebra. (I didn't go with Life of Fred because as funny as the stories are, I didn't think it gave my ds all the practice he needed.) He's having some difficulty adjusting to Jacobs, though -- well, algebra in general -- mainly because he wants to do everything in his head and has a hard time breaking problems down into steps.
I was wondering if it would be worth it to have another algebra book around -- say Saxon Algebra I -- that might break the whole process down a little more clearly than Jacobs seems to. I've also seen Liall's Algebra (?) and Dolciani textbooks mentioned in various places, but I have no experience with them.
Or would it be better to simply invest in the Jacobs DVDs that Kolbe sells?
It's not that he's really struggling a lot... it's just that he needs a little extra help in making the transition from arithmetic.
Opinions?
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Angela
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: May 19 2010 at 4:18pm | IP Logged
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Hmm.. I don't know if an additional book would help if the main problem is wanting to work everything out in his head. At some point, problems get complicated enough that paper is required. Also, including intermediate steps on paper is helpful if you get the answer wrong and need to go back to see where you messed up. This is what I tell my kids and I make them write down at least the main intermediate steps once the problems get complicated.
If Jacobs doesn't contain enough detail for your son to understand the process, then having another text to explain it better might help. I haven't seen Kolbe's DVDs or the other texts you mention. Teaching Textbooks does a good job of explaining. You might also try searching for online explanations if you don't think he'll have a problem with the majority of the Jacobs book. We used Jacobs and supplemented with online explanations when my son needed them, but then my dh and I have no trouble with math and can explain it all ourselves so that helped lots too.
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: May 19 2010 at 5:53pm | IP Logged
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In my opinion, Saxon does a great job of explaining and showing each individual step - both in the lesson itself, and in the solutions manual. Just have him do the sample problems along with the text, writing down each step the same as they do, and that should help to get him in the habit. My dd did a lot in her head too -especially with the earlier lessons as the problems are simple. But it still leads to simple errors and doesn't work when the problems get more complex. I threatened to make her do the whole lesson over if she didn't show all the steps, and that helped. 
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AtHomeScience
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| Posted: May 19 2010 at 6:10pm | IP Logged
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You may want to look at Khan Academy before buying. All the videos on the site are free, and there are lots and lots of them for all math levels.
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mooreboyz
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| Posted: May 22 2010 at 8:24am | IP Logged
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Last year my oldest struggled through LOF Algebra and like yours really had a tough time because he only wants to work things out in his head. This year I had him redo Algebra with Teaching Textbooks and he is doing much better. They give the solutions all written out so he can see what is involved in working them out. This helped him a lot. I'd recommend it.
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ALmom
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| Posted: May 22 2010 at 2:29pm | IP Logged
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Angela:
You asked about using 2 higher math programs together. I'm totally unfamiliar with Life of Fred, so cannot speak to that. It sounds like what you are looking for is to get more practice problems (Saxon has tons) but keep the explanation of concepts.
My experience with using two texts is - it is easier to have 1 main text which you follow daily and use the other simply as an as needed supplement - otherwise you lose continuity and you drive yourselves insane.
Saxon does not lend itself to easily finding some additional concept's type problems in an area and then adding those in, because they are built in a spiral learning way with everything repeated and all the different concepts mixed together in every lesson. I have found that it is easier for me to use Saxon as my main text - but when they are introducing a new concept - to pull out a few alternate explanations that give more of the bigger picture and then be able to tell my child that we are working on this part of the problem now. I also circle specific problems in Saxon according to what I need so we only do as much as the child needs to solidify a concept and move on. In Algebra, for instance, I pull out my old high school text to introduce factoring - it is so systematic and explains the whole picture very well while lining up the individual parts to get there in brief. We introduce this from my high school text, do a few problems from this text to get the idea, then move back to Saxon. I spend maybe a day or two with the old high school text before going to Saxon and continuing on with Saxon.
If Life of Fred is working well for you and you want that to be your main text, then I would look for a supplement text that is arranged with problems by concept so you can easily pick out additional problems to work. For younger grades, we have used Developmental Math to supplement Singapore Math. In older grades, I don't know, but you might look at Key to series. It is just easier on you if you are not having to do a hunt and search every time you need additional things. Otherwise, flip through textbooks anywhere (most have answers for odd # in the back) that is conveniently arranged for you to find your practice problems. Usually a book that is arranged by topic, you can look up the topic in a glossary in the back and quickly find plenty of practice problems. Saxon's arrangement just doesn't lend itself to this that well, in my opinion.
Janet
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Mary Fifer
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| Posted: June 02 2010 at 12:49am | IP Logged
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I am really interested in seeing this thread develop. That's a great idea to have the student copy the sample problem from the lesson while doing Saxon. So simple, yet I hadn't ever paid attention to having the children do that since they do take notes from the DIVE.
I've been using the DIVE with Saxon for at least 5 years and we have also tried Math-U-See for a while, but jumped right back to Saxon when I saw that the children were losing their edge with MUS. As for using two systems I would LOVE to use both Saxon and MUS if I could afford to buy both. I think that Saxon has kept our children sharper in their skills, though due to the spiral approach so we have stayed with Saxon and the DIVE. I really admire Mr. Demme's understanding of the concepts, though and wish I could have my children watch or take notes from his videos as well.
I love the MUS for the younger children and we have devolved away from workbooks (ID Digital, OLVS and Seton)and stayed with the MUS blocks and overlays and really only require the math facts till ours are ready to read Saxon's Math 5/4.
Saxon does a good bit of geometry and algebra all the way through, so our children have not had a sudden entry to Algebra I. We did skip 8/7 as the book recommended, in favor of Algebra 1/2, so I do not know how well we would have kept up if we had used 8/7.
One thing that I notice with my middle children that I did not have with my older ones and am glad to catch now for the middle and youngest ones is that I did not have them read the text. Dr. Shoremann recommends on his DIVE to just take notes from the DIVE and do the assignment from there. What was missing is that they didn't have the habit of reading the chapter so they weren't as ready for the word problems as they should have been. The day that they started reading the chapter, they had fewer questions. Dr. Art Robinson at www.RobinsonCurriculum.com had some great words to say about math on his homepage video.
The old highschool math book is a great idea too. What was the name of the book? Some of the best lessons I have ever seen came from Practical Arithmetic (OLVS) and a de la Salle Arithmetic book from the turn of the last century. The answers are right on the same pages or at the back of the book so that there is immediate feedback, too.
The best explanation of Algebra that I have found was in an old 1947 World encyclopedia. It explained most of the concept in less than 6 pages. I wonder if Wikipedia would have a good one, too. It really helped my oldest two when we read that encyclopedia entry.
The new homeschool versions of Saxon are worth their weight in gold to me. Not only are there extra practice problems in the back, but also there are new glosaries. Also the chapter number in which the concept is explained is subscripted to each problem number (which also helped the children check the DIVE before they came to me...) and the solutions manual is a God-send compared to an answer key.
We have had friends and relatives borrow our DIVEs to use with their different brands of books to be able to do just what Janet just mentioned, look up the lessons by topic... so that might be a "second book" idea.
Has anyone looked at Saxon's Geometry book? I am interested since two of mine do not seem to have the mettle to use Saxon's Algebra II book. I would hate for them to miss it since it helps so much with Chemistry, yet I am tempted to try something that looks easier.
Mary
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: June 03 2010 at 10:25am | IP Logged
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Mary, one of the reason I had chosen Saxon a few years ago is that it goes all the way through Calculus and it teaches in the text. We've never used any DVD's or supplemental, and dd has managed well just reading the lessons and doing the sample lessons along with the book. It will be interesting to see how she does when she takes college classes with lectures as she much prefers learning from the text. I guess there are so many different learning styles.
Go to CBD Christian Book Distributors and look up Saxon Geometry there. You can see the title of each chapter, and also read through a few of the actual lessons. It might give you a good idea if that would work better. I would still recommend Algebra II especially if they'll be taking Chemistry.
I agree - the solutions manuals are simply amazing!!! 
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Mary Fifer
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| Posted: June 03 2010 at 11:33pm | IP Logged
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I'll bet that your daughter will do very well in college Math. Even if the classes and lectures take up time she will still be able to refer to her book. Even if it is the new sort of school that has no text book, her Saxon textbooks will be very helpful!
Thanks for the idea to go to CBD. I'll go to it from here. I really would still like all of ours to take Algebra II since our state asks for Chemistry, I think.
The DIVE CDs have been very helpful, but I'll bet that if my younger ones simply learn to read the text of Saxon, they'll finish in less time - no teacher in the way :-)
I had never once read my Math texts all the way through College! It had never occurred to me since I had had good teachers who taught the material well.
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Mary
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: June 04 2010 at 11:05am | IP Logged
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Mary it was the same for me in school. I never even knew that the lessons were taught in the texts.  All I did at night is open to the page with the problems I had to do. Shortly after we started Saxon with 6/5, my dd asked me to let her just read the lesson and learn on her own rather than me teaching her. I miss teaching her, but that was one of the reasons I went with Saxon to begin with - so I wouldn't have to revisit studying calculus and all. 
What's suggested for college classes is to actually read the lesson in the text first, and then go to class and hear the lecture. That makes sense too, but again that had never even occurred to me! Imagine watching a lecture on something you already have a pretty good understanding of - awesome concept!!!
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Mary Fifer
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| Posted: June 04 2010 at 1:36pm | IP Logged
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Yes, I agree with that last! That will be my protocol for next year, even if we use the DIVE lectures. I still like the idea of using the DIVE because Dr. Shoreman tells you what is fluff and teaches the way that you will wind up doing a problem for life. I also like the idea of the children having to take notes from Dr. Shoreman, since I don't think they get enough of that from me...
Thanks for these great notes!
Mary
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 05 2010 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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Someone asked me what text I used to supplement for Algebra. My favorite Algebra text is actually an Algebra II text Modern School Mathematics Algebra II and Trigonometry published by Houghton Mifflin 1971.
For Algebra I, I have Jacobs (from the first year they came out, and some Prentice Hall (1990's copyright). I mostly use the Jacobs to supplement but it really doesn't matter what you use. Honestly, I loved Algebra and Trig so sometimes I just explain it without a text.
My experience - go to the friends of the library booksales and get somebody's ancient text that was found in Grammas attic. Books from the 1970s and before were more systematic, gave better overview and weren't trying to cram so many details in. You don't need a teacher's manual if they are being used as a supplement as long as they have answers in the back and good explanations in the text. My experience is that older texts actually have really good, concise big picture explanations.
I generally pay 50 cents for friends of the library textbooks. Oh - and another source (free) is if you know someone working in a school system who is homeschool friendly. They periodically ditch old books and allow teachers and staff to take these home to keep.
Mary, I do actually supplement younger Saxon with MUS. MUS has the very best intro to fractions. Since I had the material on hand, I simply pull out the blocks/ fraction overlays and demonstrate the concept. The TM has suggested problems. We use that so we don't re-order any workbooks. You might be able to get an old TM easily enough used (esp. if you are willing to use an older edition). I also use MUS when I introduce long division for the first time. I rarely refer back to my original materials now, just use the blocks and show them what they are doing by keeping all the place value going. They eventually adopt the shorthand used in long division on their own from that.
Edited to add:
My biggest complaint about Saxon is that they do a lousy job explaining the purpose, giving the big picture. For your detailed, systematic people, this isn't a big deal. When you have a visual, big picture learner, they often get overwhelmed and hate Saxon. I have a bunch of visual learners and one in particular who begged me to do anything but Saxon. I tried, but I am a better teacher with Saxon so we come back to it and try to provide the big picture first. (He is doing Jacob's Algebra I this year, but I really don't think he has learned things as well or as deeply as with Saxon - we're going to move back to Saxon for Algebra II. (Thanks for the heads up about Saxon Geometry. I may go with that. I'm letting my son look at all the different Geometry options we have right now. He wants to use Jacob's so far - but I really found that one to be a difficult text for me to teach from. It just wasn't organized well for me and I really appreciate the solutions manuals in terms of their ability to save me time even if I can work every problem in the books step by step.
Another issue (and this is with all my boys who hate to write anything down, they are big picture folks and do most math in their head) is writing all the steps. There really is a problem if the children never write the steps out. My children literally hated it and didn't see the point so I demonstrated the point of it in 2 ways. I gave them a problem (and it took me really getting creative) with really impossible numbers to do in their head. They couldn't do it - then I offered them a choice - volunteered to let them learn the steps on the complicated problems or the simple ones they could do in their head. Then I explained that being able to do it in their head should act as a check on their steps. Ie - work the problem, look at it and see if it makes sense and then if not, go back and see if you can find the step where you went off.
Then the other reason I gave for the steps is that often there are little finer points that texts and teachers do so automatically that we forget to mention it to our students. When I look at their work, I don't just look at the answer, but also at the steps. I will often find little things that I need to remember to teach that the book didn't bother to emphasize - it helps me fill in right away so that we don't end up with gaps. If you don't show your work, there will be gaps that will make life more difficult later.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Using 2 higher math programs together?
