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LucyP
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| Posted: April 08 2010 at 2:48pm | IP Logged
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We have a 6yo (he is adopted and has been with us well over 4 years - so I am not sure if this "adoption related" or not) and he has always told normal sorts of lies "I didn't do it" etc.
Lately he has branched out into some really puzzling lies. For example, hiding something and then claiming it has simply disappeared - looking for it, crying about it being lost, putting up with being told off for being careless, assuring us that he had not hidden it, crying and sobbing because we can't believe him, and only when I eventually track down the hidden thing, then after a long time admitting he had hidden it.
Now it has evolved further. Yesterday he told me that accidentally he had flushed his sister's dress down the loo. I didn't believe it was an accident - and nor did his dad - and we had two big scenes of crying, insisting it was an accident, being upset at not being believed. Even today, he was talking to us about how it was an accident and the dress had fallen in at the very moment he flushed, and he had all sorts of little details about the incident, and worries about the drain being blocked. And then tonight, I found the dress, dry and immaculate in the laundry hamper. I asked what on earth was going on and he started crying again.
I am at a loss as to what is going on. This is a relatively recent thing - just over the last few months. I have been giving him extra time with me in the evenings, thinking maybe he was jealous of his sister (not a new arrival, been here for 2.5 years). And he is not (so far) punished for the lies - we talk about how hard it is to trust and how lies are unacceptable, and give strategies for what to do if he does lie, and we always eventually thank him for telling the truth - assuming he eventually does. He does know it is wrong to lie, and has asked to go to confession because of it, and when it is all uncovered he is ashamed of himself and gets reassurance about being a good boy who has just made a mistake he is forgiven for.
But when he is lying it is SO convincing. He will look me in the eyes and just lie, crying with apparent grief that I can't believe him, even saying "God knows I am telling the truth, mama" and being so relieved when I eventually do believe him - and then I discover it has all been a utter lie. This is happening a couple of times a week - in addition to normal "it wasn't me" type lies.
I am sorry this is so long, but it is eating away at me. This last incident was most worrying, as even though at first I thought it was deliberate I never suspected it hadn't happened, and in the end I did believe it was an accident - it was all so real and convincing. Is this normal? How do you cope with not being able to trust your child? Any advice?
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 08 2010 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
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I do think lying at this age is normal. They're just figuring out that mom really can't see all, know all. And it's one of the ways that kids will try and work through this revelation.
As far as how convincing he is.. I really don't know. I haven't really had any lying that creatively or that persistently.
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organiclilac
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| Posted: April 08 2010 at 4:26pm | IP Logged
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I just read an article online - I'll post it later if I can find it again - that talked about studies that show that adults are generally terrible at catching lies in children. Children don't typically have any reliable "tells" (much as we would like to think they do) and are much better at imagining details than adults. It talked about how the best way to catch an adult lying is lack of sensory details - a truthful adult will talk about additional sights, smells, etc. that a lying one will not. But a lying child adds those details very well. It was interesting, if somewhat disturbing! I have no idea how "normal" your son's behavior is, but just wanted to reassure that it is normal not to be able to tell when he's lying. I know I was always able to fool my parents. 
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Tracy, wife to Shawn, mama to Samuel (4/01) and Joseph (11/11), and Thomas (2/15)
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organiclilac
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| Posted: April 08 2010 at 4:49pm | IP Logged
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Found it: here.
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Tracy, wife to Shawn, mama to Samuel (4/01) and Joseph (11/11), and Thomas (2/15)
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Bridget
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| Posted: April 08 2010 at 6:14pm | IP Logged
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I am no expert, but this sounds a little like it could be a symptom of Reactive Attachment Disorder which often effects adopted children. (I grew up with RAD siblings.)
This article may have some helpful ideas as a starting point. The author is well known for her work with RAD.
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: April 08 2010 at 6:51pm | IP Logged
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I was just talking with an IRL friend about children lying. I find it to be one of the more difficult behaviors for moms, in general, to deal with. Here's something that has helped me...
I tell my children that it is their job to tell the truth and it is my job to believe them. In other words, it isn't my job to forever consider that they may be lying and to avoid looking like a fool - my job is to believe them and it is their job to practice telling the truth because they should eventually see the benefit of the truth and me believing them. Believing a child's lie isn't a sin. Lying is the problem. Over time, for some children more time than others, we work on that.
When I don't believe a child, I will tell the truth and say something like, "It is your job to tell the truth and it is my job to believe you. (pause...) I so want to believe you but I'm having a hard time. This is why...", then I point out details that just aren't adding up together. As they get older we liken this to solving a mystery, evidence, and the like.
If I have fallen for a lie, hook - line - and sinker, and the truth is found out, I will honestly say something like, "Wow, your job is to tell the truth and you didn't. I did my job and believed you. Now I feel foolish. Are you trying to make me look foolish? How would you feel if I lied to you and set you up to look foolish? I'm really sad about this. This hurts our relationship." Then I help the child to make ammends.
Oh, one more thing, I tend to give children 3 times to tell the truth. Often, a first lie will be sort of out of reflex. I'll say, "Do you need time to think about that?" (pause....) "Are you sure, sure? It's your job to tell the truth..."
There sure are all sorts of reasons that a child lies - to cover up or get out of trouble, to test boundaries, to add some drama to the moment or break boredom. Some are more inclinced by temperament or history/experience. I think its fine for a mom to not feel responsible for knowing the "why" beyond what is reasonable. She mainly needs a plan for what to do when it happens.
Hang in there, Lucy! Keep us posted on what works for you.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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Carole N.
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| Posted: April 09 2010 at 3:17am | IP Logged
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I second Bridget's opinion on Reactive Attachment Disorder. We have an adopted child diagnosed with RAD. I would read all I can on it. There are some very helpful books out there about how to work with RAD children. Nancy Thomas (who Bridget referenced) is wonderful and we have gone back to her again and again.
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LucyP
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| Posted: April 09 2010 at 6:42am | IP Logged
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We know our son has attachment problems, and yes, I am worried about this because of that. He has an anxious attachment (which is, externally anyway, the least bad sort of attachment problem).
We do many of the things suggested - giving chances to "realise that the first thing you said was a mistake" rather than even labelling it a lie, saying he needs to be honest and we need to believe.
I think this may be a drama thing, but I don't know. To lie and invent doing something inappropriate, and then make a big production over it being accidental and not on purpose - when it never happened at all is so off the wall. We expect lies, as they are so little, and previously we could always tell - but now he is so ready to take it all the way, keep up persisting, swear that God knows he is telling the truth - and still be lying.
Maybe I will call his former therapist - and we are seeing our priest next week as he has been asking to go to confession, so maybe the combination of adoption-aware and spiritually-aware advice will give us some clarity.
Right now, as I cannot trust a word he says, he is not allowed out of my sight, however inconvenient that is. I feel like a jailer!
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: April 09 2010 at 9:03am | IP Logged
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Lucy, your plan is a sound one. I pray that you can find reassurance and concrete help!
LucyP wrote:
...all is so off the wall. We expect lies, as they are so little, and previously we could always tell - but now he is so ready to take it all the way, keep up persisting, swear that God knows he is telling the truth - and still be lying.
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What you're talking about here seems to be the intensity of the lying. Maybe its because I've been around a lot of children, some with serious emotional and behavioral problems, but I don't see what he is doing as completely off the wall. I've witnessed it many times. I hope that is reassuring, in a way, and doesn't minimize the difficulty - this is difficult! If your ds is intense in general, it makes sense that his lying would be intense, if that makes sense.
Are there other ways that you can funnel his intensity? What other activities can he do and do and do? Maybe stacking a bunch of these activities might help keep him focused on the positive.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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Bridget
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| Posted: April 09 2010 at 9:45am | IP Logged
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LucyP wrote:
Right now, as I cannot trust a word he says, he is not allowed out of my sight, however inconvenient that is. I feel like a jailer! |
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No, not a jailer, just a very good mom who is willing to do the hard stuff for the sake of her child.
If it's any comfort, my most severely RAD sister is very sweet and close to my parents and siblings as an adult now.
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saigemom
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| Posted: April 28 2010 at 1:53pm | IP Logged
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Lucy,
I just wanted you to know that we have been dealing with this as well. My youngest ds was adopted at almost 4 and he is almost 8 now. Last month it was a huge issue.
Here is what we did: We don't debate about whether or not it was an accident or a lie. That is not up for discussion. Then we just deal with whatever happened. We do not engage in discussion. Also, have a set punishment for lying. That way you don't lose it when it is the bazillionth time that he lies. You just say when you find out that he lied. Well, you know the punishment for lying. This is what we did in our house anyway. Mine tells the strangest lies too. Part of it is attention and part of it is that emotionally he is behind and part of it is just seeing if we will still love him if he does xyz.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Lies lies lies
