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Lynette
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 2:07pm | IP Logged
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I need some help-- this is our first year homeschooling and I'm at a loss.
A little background on my dd9: I chose MCP for the mastery approach because dd9 doesn't do well with much skipping around. She needs the "learn it and build on that same idea" approach. She cries every time we start a new chapter or math topic. "I can't do this" she says. 
dd9 is using MCP level D. She just took the Chap 9 test and cumulative review. This covers multiplying of whole numbers. She missed 10 out of 28-- 64% on the chap test and 9 out of 14--64% on the cum. review. This is WITH the use of a multiplication chart. I had her re-do the 10 missed chap. problems today and she still missed 5. I then went through the missed five with her.
So my question is-- Do I move on to the next chapter which is division of whole numbers? I feel like we need to slow down but we are already behind from previous chapter slow-downs. We have 6 chapters left in the book to cover this year...
It seems to be the same careless mistakes over and over...adding or multiplying wrong or not adding in the carried number correctly. Truthfully, she is not strong on her addition or multiplication facts. She knows HOW to do 2 digit multiplication and multiplication of larger numbers. She just can't help but jumble the numbers while doing the process.
Plus, if anyone has an idea for her next year (5th grade) math curriculum I'm all ears.  I'm wondering if Math-U-See might work for her. I don't feel I explain things enough for her. I need a mastery program with a teacher script (like the script in my ds7's Saxon 2 program).
Thanks in advance, 
Lynette
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 2:14pm | IP Logged
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Someone has mentioned using graph paper for doing math.. helps keep the numbers nicely lined up. I think I might try that and see if helps clear up mistakes.. and let you see if it's the careless haphazard jumbling of numbers or if it's really an understanding problem.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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brabec7
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 2:43pm | IP Logged
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Lynette,
I second the graph paper or use lined paper sideways. It helped my daughter greatly with organizing while doing multi-step problems. Also a dry erase board allows them to do the problem in a large font and erase and write with ease. We would do one problem and then she would call me to check. Time consuming I know but really it is fun to do work on a dry erase board. Even my high schooler uses it for Calculus.
As far as Math-U-See, I find it to be a good program in that it provides good explainations via the DVD. The other good aspect is that it does take a child from the concrete to the abstract all in one topic.
As far as grade' you might look into Teaching Textbooks. It does not have the hands-on aspect that Math-U-See does but the explainations are rather good via the DVD. I think that the scope and sequence is a bit behind by a traditional grade level. I just bought 6th grade and really it is 4th-5th grade in its topics. Now don't get me wrong there are a few topics that my daughter indeed has not had yet. But for the most part Teaching Textbooks for 6th grade is really what you would find in most 5th grade books. However, if the foundation is not solid in 4th grade maybe doing 5th grade would allow for her to catch-up without feeling behind.
Okay, now I am going to go against everything that this board stands for and meekly suggest timed tests and oral quizes.  The timed tests helped my now 11 year old to memorize the facts and the oral allowed her to move from pen and paper to calculating in her head. It is now a game to see how many numbers she can add or how big of an equation she can do. Something like: 20-3+33-20*2=60...I think that is right. But you get the idea.
As a side note on the timed tests: It really is a great help for preparing for the timed aspect of such tests as the ACT. That was our biggest hurdle in the ACT. Not having done testing nor timed tests for that matter, it can be a real challenge to then have to learn to do problems to a timer.
Blessings,
Lisa B
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 2:48pm | IP Logged
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speaking of timed tests.. this is fun to use Math is Fun
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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brabec7
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 3:15pm | IP Logged
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JodiLyn,
Thanks for that site. it looks like fun. Lisa B
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mathmama
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 3:34pm | IP Logged
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JodieLyn wrote:
Someone has mentioned using graph paper for doing math.. helps keep the numbers nicely lined up. I think I might try that and see if helps clear up mistakes.. and let you see if it's the careless haphazard jumbling of numbers or if it's really an understanding problem.
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I was going to suggest the exact same thing. Mary Ann (momtomany on here) did this with one of her children and it helped a lot.
As a math person I can tell you that being neat and orderly plays a big part in getting the math right. I had students that were really smart, but really sloppy. They would do well when the work was uncomplicated, but once there were a couple of steps to keep track of they would get lost in their messiness and get the problems wrong.
__________________
Beth, wife to Tom and mommy to 4 beautiful girls:
Therese 11/04
Anna Mary 6/07
Veronica 10/09
Theodora 11/12
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Lynette
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 3:43pm | IP Logged
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Thanks ladies for the fast replies. We have used graph paper at the beginning. Now her mistakes aren't so much from physically jumbled numbers as they are mentally jumbled- iykwim? She understands to multiply and then carry. She also understand to add the carried number. But the 2 step process of multiplying and then adding the carried numbers is a killer 
Yes, you are so right that we need to do timed tests...
I just hesitate because that will mean 3 pages of math per day for her. Also, I'm afraid to try with her because when I started doing them with ds7 (in Saxon 2) he cried and would melt-down every_single_time I started the timer! Now I don't use the timer on him--he just goes as fast as he can.
Can you tell our family has some math issues? 
Also, I'm trying to ease the kids into homeschooling... I'm trying to make the first year "fun" enough to get them hooked on hsing.
My daughter still, at times mentions "real school".
But, goodness sakes she needs to understand the basics, right?!
Lynette
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ekbell
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 4:59pm | IP Logged
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My advice would be to refrain from moving on to division as it really does rely on having a good grasp of muliplication.
I found with my oldest that it really helped to completely break down the cross multiplicaton for her. I did a few problems with ALL the steps I could think of -explaining every step as I went-and then I showed her the standard shortcuts. (I actually did the first problem using coins for manipulatives)
And then I watched her working on the problem sets for a bit so that I could catch her as soon as she missed something.
Remember that you don't actually *have* to finish the workbook by a set time- That's why you're homeschooling! It's actually a very good idea for math to be a year round subject as it avoids the normal summer forgetfulness and need for review. If three pages of math would be too much then adjust things to better suit (shorten the timed test, do timed tests every other day and shorten the regular material, etc)
I personally delibrately use a (Canadian) math workbook set which doesn't have grade levels to remind myself that mastery should be the goal-regardless of the length of time it takes.
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brabec7
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 5:19pm | IP Logged
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Timed tests and tears! LYnette, I have been there.
I know that one all to well. We did the same thing. Just had them do it as fast as they could and recorded the time.
I also cut the time test to a successful amount and gradually added more.
I also would allow them to look over every problem one at a time before we did the test.
Each kid required a different creative solution to overcome the phobia or stress.
One thought: Usually the first twenty lessons in fifth grade are review lessons from fourth grade. So if you have to focus on fundamentals and miss some of the book work, you might be okay. On that same thought: you will also find the same skills throughout most elementary texts. Sure there might be some concept gaps but nothing major .....especially if the foundation is strong.
Lisa B
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Denise in IL
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 6:27pm | IP Logged
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Lynette wrote:
...I feel like we need to slow down but we are already behind from previous chapter slow-downs. We have 6 chapters left in the book to cover this year...
It seems to be the same careless mistakes over and over...adding or multiplying wrong or not adding in the carried number correctly. Truthfully, she is not strong on her addition or multiplication facts. She knows HOW to do 2 digit multiplication and multiplication of larger numbers. She just can't help but jumble the numbers while doing the process.... |
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A few suggestions:
(1) Rather than focus on timed work, how about playing games that will build her math facts? In my experience, kids focus more intently on a game, which means they are focused on learning, but without the stress of a timed test. At the risk of "blowing my own horn," let me recommend some of my blog posts--
Game: Tens Concentration
The Game that Is Worth 1,000 Worksheets
Game: Target Number (or 24)
Contig Game: Master Your Math Facts
(2) You can move on AND keep working on multiplication. Is one of the chapters you have left to do about geometry or fractions or something besides division? With my daughter, we like to skip around in our math books so that we can alternate the hard stuff (like multi-digit multiplication or division) with easier stuff (geometry or fractions, which are still pretty easy in 4th grade). If you do this, you will not feel so far behind, even while you also work on firming up the math facts (with games like those above).
(3) Use a whiteboard or scratch paper to work just one or two bigger multiplication problems each day, to help your daughter keep the steps in mind. I find that Buddy Math is a great way to work these problems --- one for me and one for my daughter.
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Denise in IL
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 6:35pm | IP Logged
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How frustrating! The website chewed up my post, cutting half of it away. Let's see if I can remember the rest...
(4) My personal rule of thumb: Keep math time to 10 minutes per grade level or less, which would be 40 minutes in 4th grade. Learning math is hard work, and going longer just adds to frustration and brings my kids to tears. It may be even better to break it into two short sessions of 20 minutes each.
(5) Don't let yourself feel like a failure over math. You are BOTH learning --- you to teach, and her the math --- and sometimes it takes quite awhile to find a system that works for both of you. If you take a survey of homeschoolers, I bet most of them would tell you it took several stutters and starts and experiments before they settled on a math program that worked for them. That's normal. And since your daughter is only in 4th grade, you still have plenty of time to work this out!
(6) Take a little time to have fun with math. Try a living math book from the library or a fun project from one of the other forum threads. It really can make a huge difference! You will come back refreshed after spending time away from the textbook, even if it is only one day a week, or even one day a month.
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JuliaT
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 7:55pm | IP Logged
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Lynette, we used MCP math had the same result as you are having: tears and, in our case, hissy fits. I switched very quickly.
We are now using MUS. I really like this program. The video portion takes about 5 min. Not very often do I have to teach the lesson to my dd. She gets all the info she needs through the video. If there is a lesson that she does't get, the manual tells me quite specifically how to teach her. I am very happy with it.
Another thing, you might want to spend some time in playing multiplication games with her to cement her math facts. Games like War: deal cards out (from Ace to 10) each person picks up two cards and multiplies them, the person that has highest number wins. This is just an example but there are oodles of math games to help solidify the facts.
Also, don't worry about being 'behind.' There is no such thing in homeschooling. You are exactly where your daughter needs to be right now. If she doesn't get the book done this year, it is truly not a big deal. It is more important that she understands what she is doing.
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Blessings,
Julia
mom of 3(14,13 & 11 yrs.old)
MusingsofaPrairieGirl
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roseberyem
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| Posted: March 11 2010 at 11:59pm | IP Logged
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Hi Lynette,
We use MCP Math and I really like that it has a mastery approach - in my opinion this works better in the younger years. Well it has with three of my dc so far. 
Firstly, one thing I would ask you, is how well your dd did on the whole of the chapter 9 work? I would take this in to consideration as well.
My ds8 would sometimes do really well through the whole chapter but would often score terribly on the cumulative review/test pages. If this happened, I certainly didn't stress about it.
Secondly, sometimes, I will work closely with my ds through the first page, guiding as much as he needs it. Then the second page he would work independently.
If he really continued to struggle with a certain topic, I would get him to do only 5 questions for example and then I would correct them. Do 5 more, then correct again. On occasions, I may even say to him, "this question is a tricky one - can you guess why?"
Thirdly, I'd say to you, that multiplication, learning times tables and telling the time have all taken just a little bit longer to sink in than other math concepts for my dc. They've all got there in the end though...
Don't know if that helps at all.
Emily
Oh, I'd also suggest you skip the chapter on division, do an easier topic (like Geometry, Fractions, Graphing) but get your dd to do maybe, 5 multiplication sums at each math lesson. Come back to the division chapter later on....
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Lori
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| Posted: March 15 2010 at 1:51am | IP Logged
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In addition to using graph paper, with multiplication I would write the top number in one color, and the bottom number with a different color for each digit. This helped my son distinguish between the "carrying" part of the calculation, and also the place value in the addition portion. I would have him use the 2 different colors when working the problems. Then the final answer is written in yet another color (get your art lesson in as well by using 2 primary or secondary colors and having the final answer be a "blend"--doesn't work as well on screen here as on paper, but you get the idea!)
For example
438
x 29
-----
3942
876
-----
12702
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: March 15 2010 at 5:23am | IP Logged
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Lori wrote:
In addition to using graph paper, with multiplication I would write the top number in one color, and the bottom number with a different color for each digit. This helped my son distinguish between the "carrying" part of the calculation, and also the place value in the addition portion. I would have him use the 2 different colors when working the problems. Then the final answer is written in yet another color (get your art lesson in as well by using 2 primary or secondary colors and having the final answer be a "blend"--doesn't work as well on screen here as on paper, but you get the idea!)
For example
438
x 29
-----
3942
876
-----
12702 |
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This is the sort of thing that has helped with my ds9. I believe he is a "visual spatial" or "right brained" learner.
Here is a blog post I recently found with information that is helpful about this type of learner.
My kids start the Saxon books in 4th grade and since they are not workbooks, using graph paper will be a must for this ds.
My son is a math wiz, concept wise. He struggles mightily with facts though and uses a multiplication chart to help him. But he still gets things mixed up, so even when he seems to know the concept, he gets the answers wrong because he put them in the wrong place, carried the wrong number, or whatever! .
Memorizing the facts will be a huge help, but that is difficult for my ds. If timed tests don't work try flashcards.
ETA: I would definitely wait until she has this concept down before moving onto the next. Maybe she could do some problems for practice on a white board or chalk board. For some reason, doing them "big" really helps my ds too. He seems better able to see the process. If we are working on math upstairs, where I don't have a chalkboard, I'll grab a piece of printer paper and write the problem out really big to help him see the process.
I realize this is a very choppy post. Sorry about that. I've got kids with the flu and I think lack of sleep is getting to me.
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Becky
Wife to Wes, Mom to 6 wonderful kids on Earth and 4 in Heaven!
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Teachin'Mine2
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Just an FYI - Staples has the best spiral bound graph paper! It's made all the difference in neatness here - we've been using it for a few years. I would think that in the lower grades, you could have them assign one box to each number to make sure that their ones and tens, etc. are properly aligned. But I don't think it's at all necessary in higher grades - just the nice neat narrow lines are fabulous, and all the number lines, graphing, constructions, etc. are all in one place.
Lori that color coding idea is great! (I think the answer area needs the red and blue reversed...)
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